Example of what psychoacoustics is about, its methods and also a good basic paper: http://symphony.arch.rpi.edu/~braas...dyMaterials3_Blauert08/blauertbraasch2005.pdf
yeah, fore designing concert hall, or bigger auditoriums
might be a good idea to start a new thread about room acoustic
and even a new thread about designing omni speakers might help too
Did you even read the paper? Neither psychoacoustics nor that paper in particular is targeted at "designing concert hall, or bigger auditoriums". You're ignoring a whole branch of science.
Why are omni speakers not more popular? Obviously they don't provide a superior experience for everybody and/or in every room. The possible causes are to be found somewhere between psychoacoustics and implementation. So I think everything I've said so far is very much on topic.
yes
its clear to me its about bigger live events
do I really have to make my living room look like a recording studio to enjoy music
I don't think so
just to make it clear
I have done lots of room acoustic treatments over the years
and enough to know a bit about how it works
and in my experience speaker with certain anomalies or artefacts benefit the most from room acoustic treatments
I'm done with that
I prefer to build speaker that are less dependent on special room treatment
I do not deny that I could have better sound with a better room
but its really not needed as is
ofcourse almost everything can be improved
but at some you have to decide if the 'investment' or efforts gives enough benefit
and also consider any possible drawbacks
it never ends if you don't draw a line, somewhere
I have done lots of room acoustic treatments over the years
and enough to know a bit about how it works
and in my experience speaker with certain anomalies or artefacts benefit the most from room acoustic treatments
I'm done with that
I prefer to build speaker that are less dependent on special room treatment
I do not deny that I could have better sound with a better room
but its really not needed as is
ofcourse almost everything can be improved
but at some you have to decide if the 'investment' or efforts gives enough benefit
and also consider any possible drawbacks
it never ends if you don't draw a line, somewhere
Its more down to pricepoint/marketing than anything else. If that isnt the case then why are B&O omni in car systems so popular? plenty of car buyers tick the B&O system upgrade box for their Audi/Merc/Bmw
for one, the describtion of what happens with two trumpets with different 'echoes', playing together
clearly a live event
once you have it recorded, it becomes a different situation
then you alread are listening to a predetermined summed signal
I seriously doubt that this kind of psyko acoustic theory can be used with much sense in a home environment
maybe not even much good in recording studio either
the sound is controlled in a much different way
but with a live recorded concert
then yes
but once recorded
then no
Wow Markus! That is actually an excellent paper! Makes perfect sense. Sorry I didn't read it earlier.
Tinitus, small room acoustics have a different sent of parameters than large spaces and thus different weighting of importance and difficulties associated with the production and reproduction of music in each, but that doesn't change what psychoacoustics is and no one said you need to turn your living room into something resembling a recording studio to enjoy music. I'd say you could do worse. 😉 Most of us do, but that doesn't mean we are willing to go all the way to omni speakers to try and screw it up.(I'm joking of course ha ha ha) 🙂
If you don't believe this type of theoretical knowledge is of use to the home audio enthusiast that's fine. I just can't see how any type of knowledge on the subject is detrimental. The subject is "why omnis are not more popular." Psychoacoustics and even "what it(psychoacoustics) is" falls under that topic.
So relax. No harm, no foul.
Peace,
Dan
Tinitus, small room acoustics have a different sent of parameters than large spaces and thus different weighting of importance and difficulties associated with the production and reproduction of music in each, but that doesn't change what psychoacoustics is and no one said you need to turn your living room into something resembling a recording studio to enjoy music. I'd say you could do worse. 😉 Most of us do, but that doesn't mean we are willing to go all the way to omni speakers to try and screw it up.(I'm joking of course ha ha ha) 🙂
If you don't believe this type of theoretical knowledge is of use to the home audio enthusiast that's fine. I just can't see how any type of knowledge on the subject is detrimental. The subject is "why omnis are not more popular." Psychoacoustics and even "what it(psychoacoustics) is" falls under that topic.
So relax. No harm, no foul.
Peace,
Dan
you sound very sure about it
and you are certain you know how it works ?
well, I'm not 😕
and I even built one that worked 😀
and you are certain you know how it works ?
well, I'm not 😕
and I even built one that worked 😀
The only omnis which are vaguely known outside hifi freaksville are Beolabs but they start at 5 grand. It would be good if someone produced something budget. I just about remember that Canon omni which kind of worked, using a single paper cone so it was wanting in the treble.
yeah, Blauert again
but seriously - who is Blauert from perspective of High Fidelity as a professional industry and as a hobby?
Has anyone ever listened to any Blauert speakers?
they are all so smart, so eloquent and competent etc.
certainly another great read, but...
...where are the f***ing better speakers? same s**t for almost 100 years without any significant progress, real disgrace for those guys scientifically researching the field as all they are able to give to the people is more and more of peer-reviewed blah blah blah, isn't it?
but seriously - who is Blauert from perspective of High Fidelity as a professional industry and as a hobby?
Has anyone ever listened to any Blauert speakers?
they are all so smart, so eloquent and competent etc.
certainly another great read, but...
...where are the f***ing better speakers? same s**t for almost 100 years without any significant progress, real disgrace for those guys scientifically researching the field as all they are able to give to the people is more and more of peer-reviewed blah blah blah, isn't it?
there's is a company in sweden that does something v similar to these. Personally think that some kind of acoustic lens lens wd be a better compromise - ie to reflect sound more towards the listener rather than using the ceiling etc- I would have thought that the listener would receive more treble detail?
I think it is far more complicated than even you are letting on. Keep in mind some people, usually young and dumb, actually prefer speakers with massive technical flaws. They want intense bass heavy speakers; speakers with heavy droning bass. That is technically wrong but who are we to say that they are wrong in what they like, and in all likelihood, over time, their tastes will become more refined.
In a recent Stereophile Magazine, someone wrote in outraged that a speaker with 75hz to 20khz could get such a glowing review. How could such a bass light speaker be considered good? Well, the most obvious answer is clarity, detail, transparency, and sound stage. The end all be all of a speaker is not measure strictly in bass.
Once you grow up (people in general) clarity trumps bass every time.
So, with regard to Omni-speakers, one must merely ask - are the clear?
And more to the point, is there anything about the Omni design that enhances or detracts from the clarity and detail of the music? And what are those factors.
As anyone who has ever placed a speaker close to the wall will know, the problems that arise from such placement don't just compromise the bass. I've found that the reflected bass very much compromises the Midrange. So, again, if we have omni-directional speakers, do the reflections enhance or detract from the sound.
I suspect, as with any speaker, placement is critical as is room acoustic.
As I said very early on in this thread the only way to really get true and truly effective Omni's is with a cylindrical cone similar to the MBL speakers (which I linked to).
But even the very best Omni design can't divorce itself from conflicting room reflections, room acoustics, and placement.
I suspect, as with all speakers, there are good Omni design and bad. And just like all speakers good Omni's can be place in bad rooms.
Finally, as is true in all aspects of audio, a gain in one place is offset by a loss in another place. Everything is compromise, everything trades off something for something else. You gain in room filling sound stage, but what do you trade off to get that?
So, the underlying question is, can you find Omni's that lose what you don't like in order to gain something you do like?
Steve/bluewizard
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