I met Mr. Van den hul at a CES show one year. He was directly across from me and was showing a wire that was based on a carbon fiber doped inductor wire. He gave me a set at the show. He had a very interesting theory about the wire printed to go with the show demonstration. I have to say that I gave them away not long after the show. They seemed to be close to a spark plug wire in construction, nothing special except for the price. He was a very nice man making some very questionable claims.
If you were referring to moi : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/ever...fficial-all-cables-sound-same.html#post508937
(4 and 8 posts up from mine. On the second link, right above me. First thread has 484 posts and the 2nd a mere 78 total. Just saying.)
AJ lived in a standard home in a small village, Pijnacker, handful of miles from the university I served hard time at.
For years on end, he wound his cartridges by hand in the attic of that house, may still be residing there, fwik.
Amazing eye-hand cognitive skills, even at his current age.
(4 and 8 posts up from mine. On the second link, right above me. First thread has 484 posts and the 2nd a mere 78 total. Just saying.)
AJ lived in a standard home in a small village, Pijnacker, handful of miles from the university I served hard time at.
For years on end, he wound his cartridges by hand in the attic of that house, may still be residing there, fwik.
Amazing eye-hand cognitive skills, even at his current age.
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I'm referring to the link you refer to in the post just above my question.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...age-audio-power-amplifier-22.html#post2533816
And yes, it has 1268 posts
Can you be a little more precise?
Rummaging through 127 pages searching for pictures showing "the bloke from Portugal" 's "Lab" is not exactly my idea of fun.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...age-audio-power-amplifier-22.html#post2533816
And yes, it has 1268 posts
Can you be a little more precise?
Rummaging through 127 pages searching for pictures showing "the bloke from Portugal" 's "Lab" is not exactly my idea of fun.
Between ( ) means everything between ( ) belongs there.
aka I was just showing a picture of my 550sqft garage.
Is it really that hard to understand that a comment about Cables belongs to a thread on Cables ?
"another web location" referred to Another Place.
In this case it was Jocko's audio forum (Pat di Giacomo from Garland, TX) , where Carlos posted his toilet seat.
(Btw, me do 3 rooms on 2 floor levels, with a sys2. Plus me barn, down for the hardware, up for storage of papers and lengthy metal)
aka I was just showing a picture of my 550sqft garage.
Is it really that hard to understand that a comment about Cables belongs to a thread on Cables ?
"another web location" referred to Another Place.
In this case it was Jocko's audio forum (Pat di Giacomo from Garland, TX) , where Carlos posted his toilet seat.
(Btw, me do 3 rooms on 2 floor levels, with a sys2. Plus me barn, down for the hardware, up for storage of papers and lengthy metal)
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Jacco,
I assume by the description of the wires on the page you directed me to that these are one and the same. Some very wild claims were made, I had a fairly long discussion with him about it privately, he didn't discount what I was saying about the high resistance of that type of construction but it was very counter to what was in the show preprint. We liked each other and he was a very astute fellow even if I didn't believe the claims for the wires, if you want to call them that!
I assume by the description of the wires on the page you directed me to that these are one and the same. Some very wild claims were made, I had a fairly long discussion with him about it privately, he didn't discount what I was saying about the high resistance of that type of construction but it was very counter to what was in the show preprint. We liked each other and he was a very astute fellow even if I didn't believe the claims for the wires, if you want to call them that!
So far we have one instance of a CABLE seller relabeling product. One could argue he was adding some value with terminations, but not enough to justify huge mark-up. Of course any one who buys in bulk and sells in smaller quantities is entitled to some profit. Recognizing and serving a market is what generates profit. Nothing fraudulent about that--just business.
I used a couple different VdH IC's for some time (still have a couple pieces) and they sounded very good. Would I have discovered the wire on my own if it weren't bought at wholesale by VdH and marketed by him? Probably not, so his "discovery" alone is worth something. Was that worth what I paid for it? At that time, yes. Now, no.
So that's wire. Is it also fair for a seller to buy caps at wholesale and market them as his own, and make money doing it? Of course: recognize and serve a market. Is it ethical to then make claims that their caps are unique and therefore sound better than others? Certainly not. Do many companies do that? Do they then use reviewers to influence buying decisions? Is Mundorf really that corrupt? REL? Can you establish a brand name and a reputation for quality simply by lying to everyone?
Regards,
Tom E
I used a couple different VdH IC's for some time (still have a couple pieces) and they sounded very good. Would I have discovered the wire on my own if it weren't bought at wholesale by VdH and marketed by him? Probably not, so his "discovery" alone is worth something. Was that worth what I paid for it? At that time, yes. Now, no.
So that's wire. Is it also fair for a seller to buy caps at wholesale and market them as his own, and make money doing it? Of course: recognize and serve a market. Is it ethical to then make claims that their caps are unique and therefore sound better than others? Certainly not. Do many companies do that? Do they then use reviewers to influence buying decisions? Is Mundorf really that corrupt? REL? Can you establish a brand name and a reputation for quality simply by lying to everyone?
Regards,
Tom E
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Sy,
You mean marketing hyperbole isn't a scientifically controlled experiment. I guess any one of use could just call Belden and purchase a real of unmarked Teflon insulated copper wire and make our own claims. Let's see, 99.9999 percent oxygen free single grain copper wire with special litz wire construction with a counter helix construction, using tellurium terminated connectors with Teflon insulators and special RF blocking quad braided shielding. Oh and for our exclusive line we used foamed Teflon to increase the speed of sound in the inductors with special capacitance properties to smooth the ultra high frequencies. Boy it is fun being a copy writer!
You mean marketing hyperbole isn't a scientifically controlled experiment. I guess any one of use could just call Belden and purchase a real of unmarked Teflon insulated copper wire and make our own claims. Let's see, 99.9999 percent oxygen free single grain copper wire with special litz wire construction with a counter helix construction, using tellurium terminated connectors with Teflon insulators and special RF blocking quad braided shielding. Oh and for our exclusive line we used foamed Teflon to increase the speed of sound in the inductors with special capacitance properties to smooth the ultra high frequencies. Boy it is fun being a copy writer!
Interestingly, in another thread, someone talked about the "directionality" of wire used in an interconnect; he speculated that it was somehow related to the copper drawing direction. One of the consults I did was for a custom wire house which provided cable to this particular audio brand; it was a small but lucrative account for them. The GM there was chatting with me one day about how the "direction" was determined from this customer- as you may imagine, it was totally random.
It's always fun to spend time on the production floor of a film capacitor manufacturer and see how many different labels come off the same line...
It's always fun to spend time on the production floor of a film capacitor manufacturer and see how many different labels come off the same line...
Sy,
Yes if you turn the wire around the electrons get very confused and you have to spend hundreds of hours getting the wire to reorient the grain structure of the copper to allow the electrons to again flow in the proper direction. I do remember seeing all the nonsense about grain orientation and the 6-9's ******** as if any of these companies was smelting there own copper wire and drawing it with a particular grain structure. Total bs as you and I understand it. But it does sell to someone who wants to believe just as you and I have seen in an actual capacitor manufacturer. I remember when someone tried to tell me that the power ratings on capacitors were different qualities dependent on the manufacturer and the one coming from the orient had inferior voltage ratings even if they said 100volts or whatever on the outside. Perhaps there was a quality difference in the actual metallized film production, I could believe that, but a voltage rating should be a real number if you are selling to real manufacturers of a product. Now talking about electrolytic capacitors I imagine is another story all together in quality of construction, the disaster of failing capacitors in Apple Imac computers a few years ago was a real problem, but that is what you get when you buy from the lowest cost producer.
Yes if you turn the wire around the electrons get very confused and you have to spend hundreds of hours getting the wire to reorient the grain structure of the copper to allow the electrons to again flow in the proper direction. I do remember seeing all the nonsense about grain orientation and the 6-9's ******** as if any of these companies was smelting there own copper wire and drawing it with a particular grain structure. Total bs as you and I understand it. But it does sell to someone who wants to believe just as you and I have seen in an actual capacitor manufacturer. I remember when someone tried to tell me that the power ratings on capacitors were different qualities dependent on the manufacturer and the one coming from the orient had inferior voltage ratings even if they said 100volts or whatever on the outside. Perhaps there was a quality difference in the actual metallized film production, I could believe that, but a voltage rating should be a real number if you are selling to real manufacturers of a product. Now talking about electrolytic capacitors I imagine is another story all together in quality of construction, the disaster of failing capacitors in Apple Imac computers a few years ago was a real problem, but that is what you get when you buy from the lowest cost producer.
Let me get this straight:
- physics says that various different capacitors will sound very similar, assuming normal good commercial quality (apart from some minor issues such as tiny non-linearities with polyester)
- commerce tells us that expensive caps are often ordinary caps wearing different clothes
- some audiophiles claim to hear significant differences, preferring expensive caps and (sometimes) polyester caps
- similarly, physics tells us that decent cables all sound alike (when properly driven) and cannot be directional
- commerce tells us that cable direction marking can be random
- some audiphiles claim to hear significant differences, preferring expensive 'directional' cables or poorly-made cables subject to microphony or interference pickup
- those of us who point this out are merely being nasty to all those lovely insightful people who enable audiophiles to enjoy their music more by taking money off them
- physics says that various different capacitors will sound very similar, assuming normal good commercial quality (apart from some minor issues such as tiny non-linearities with polyester)
- commerce tells us that expensive caps are often ordinary caps wearing different clothes
- some audiophiles claim to hear significant differences, preferring expensive caps and (sometimes) polyester caps
- similarly, physics tells us that decent cables all sound alike (when properly driven) and cannot be directional
- commerce tells us that cable direction marking can be random
- some audiphiles claim to hear significant differences, preferring expensive 'directional' cables or poorly-made cables subject to microphony or interference pickup
- those of us who point this out are merely being nasty to all those lovely insightful people who enable audiophiles to enjoy their music more by taking money off them
The jokes are funny, but the debate is not becoming what I'd hoped for.
It immediately became an "is-is not" discussion.
From the people that think high grade caps are the real thing I'd like to read what they did to prove these things work. At all times I miss the reason these caps are better. Lower resistance,inductance , microphony, inner vibrations you name it.
What did they do to prove they are not being fooled by their desire to prove that exclusive = better. Engineering is never a black or white thing. It's a tradeof and choices depend on the application. So if there is any reason why these things pay off, there must be conditions under which these thing are beneficial.
Only the non believers provided some sort of evidence (together with a lot of ridiculing)
As mentioned above, manufacturers of these caps provide very little solid data to proof their claims.
It immediately became an "is-is not" discussion.
From the people that think high grade caps are the real thing I'd like to read what they did to prove these things work. At all times I miss the reason these caps are better. Lower resistance,inductance , microphony, inner vibrations you name it.
What did they do to prove they are not being fooled by their desire to prove that exclusive = better. Engineering is never a black or white thing. It's a tradeof and choices depend on the application. So if there is any reason why these things pay off, there must be conditions under which these thing are beneficial.
Only the non believers provided some sort of evidence (together with a lot of ridiculing)
As mentioned above, manufacturers of these caps provide very little solid data to proof their claims.
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dre,
I think that is the point us non believers are trying to make. If you change any capacitor value in a crossover without matching the electrical values I would think that there should be a difference and that should be heard. Now that may have changed the perception that the sound improved because of the change in response or just the opposite that a particular brand was worse if the effect went in the wrong direction, but that seems to be the only evidence of what is said about changing caps. It has never been done in a scientific way that I have seen, just the claim that they hear a difference they like and therefor the new capacitor that cost big bucks proves it is a superior product. Nothing more that I have ever seen and I doubt that anyone could test anything that proves different.
I think that is the point us non believers are trying to make. If you change any capacitor value in a crossover without matching the electrical values I would think that there should be a difference and that should be heard. Now that may have changed the perception that the sound improved because of the change in response or just the opposite that a particular brand was worse if the effect went in the wrong direction, but that seems to be the only evidence of what is said about changing caps. It has never been done in a scientific way that I have seen, just the claim that they hear a difference they like and therefor the new capacitor that cost big bucks proves it is a superior product. Nothing more that I have ever seen and I doubt that anyone could test anything that proves different.
Can you name an example of that in this thread ?
Cause I went through it again a couple of times, and I can't seem to find it anywhere.
Or did you mean Cold Hard Evidence by that ?
Here's some :
Main man Data just sadly departed from this forum, right after he made sure he wiped his slate clean : the signature-line which summed up his "audio set".
Checked it, by chance ? Well, I did (and also summed it up in post 63)
Mr Data does/did his boutique evaluations on $2000 retail price book-shelf loudspeakers, a refurbished low-budget old turntable, an assembled valve power amp kit, and another reno job, with tweaked boutique add-ons.
Let's make it a clean $5K invested total.
For a comparison, I checked current rates at the web, and summed up the equivalent retail total of my junk.
Around $90K, of which I paid around $60K.
In terms of low distortion numbers, my preamplifier/power-amp/loudspeaker combination ranks Olympic staircase grade.
(sealed, signed, and delivered, if so desired)
Who would you believe on grounds of "sound" reasons, given the choice between the two ?
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Can you please define (non-)believer ?
As I consider myself a firm believer in High Grade parts, both in type and brand.
Plus I'm so bold to also view myself as the resident brand & code number phonebook of this forum.
And a foil capacitor fetishist, I've got more of them than any non-manufacturer member of this forum.
Those include WonderCaps, SideReal, RelCaps, Siltech, and a whole bunch the majority of current boutique shoppers never even heard of.
Trick or Treat ?
My hand made physical contact with the likes of Hiraga, Jacques Mahul, Jochen Räke, Dieter Burmester, etc.
Or would you prefer Harry van Daalen, Johan Ketelaar, both Siltech boys, and a couple of SOTA Dutch audio designers You never heard of.
A few posters on this thread know audio guys as e.g. Menno van der Veen and Guido Tent by face-to-face contact.
Back in the '80s, I learned as a participator of John vd Sluis' Audio&Techniek club that taking the plastic foil of electrolytic caps off improves the sound, done it ever since.
Which is where I know Guido Tent from, back then he was working on his bachelors' graduation assignment. Guido also unwraps his caps, today.
What started this divine cap lunacy ?
Amp manufacturers in the 1980s, who custom ordered relabelled foil and lytic capacitors (plus other parts), and stuck them in their products.
Then that stuff also penetrated loudspeaker manufacture.
Why, to make up for their lack in real quality, and Marketing Purposes.
e.g. the likes of Rolf Gemein in Germany, Symphonic Line.
With his exotic Aranya finish, his shiny MU-metal shielded transformers, Bling !
Part of that response was also to keep up with the esoteric part madness of manufacturers in Japan.
(you know, the place where they stick everything in their mouth if it looks even remotely eatable)
Next stop were the magazines.
Technically capable writers were harder to find/count by the year, and the magazines turned glossy tabloids, with zero data and lots of fancy expensive item talk.
That's where the Boutique sales men stepped in, and it is no coincidence that a large part of those are....German brands.
Need Marketing BS ?
Swiss watches ?
Two mechanical clockwork manufacturers in Switserland have an 80% market share.
The internal clockwork in most of the very expensive Swiss watch brands are by those 2 manufacturers, and vary by only a couple of types.
The >$10K wrist watch may look prettier than it's competitor, but the inside is Exactly the same.
Bose ? The Worst of the Worst !
Microsoft ? Best ?
Heineken ? Cat Pi(l)ss !
1987 Cadillac Allanté.
Bodywork manufactured in Italy and flown over to the assembly line in a Boeing. $55K luxury convertible, and > FL200K in NL.
And a Junk car. All Marketing !
If one knows ;
-The cap foil types which both sound best and have the best looking data.
-How the caps should look on the inside.
-How tight they should be wound.
-How various caps look like by having sawn open a great many, and run them over with a magnafying glass.
-Then it's the other one who's still eager to swallow Marketing hype.
Jocko Homo did measurements on a Black Gate cap and posted graphs/figures a couple of years ago. Same-Old Same-Old.
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