What always amuses me is that radio enthusiasts are ripping out (on sight) ancient paper dielectric capacitors because they are leaky and have changed their capacitance value; water is both a poor insulator and a fairly high permittivity dielectric. They usually put in modern plastic film caps. Meanwhile, on a different planet, certain audiophiles are ripping out plastic film caps and putting in paper dielectric caps. The oil in the paper merely slows down the ageing.
I experienced differerences when I replaced Wima film capacitors in my integrated power amplifier (those 2 on the "signal path" on the inputs). They are here to avoid DC on the input, you'll find the same on the output of your CD player for example. I replaced them with the same capacitor value but using Obbligato. Soundstage was a little better (more "open"). Same experience with my CD player (replaced with an Audyncap MK+). Again: better soundstage. I'm not crazy enough to buy expensive capacitors (let's say above Mundorf) but as there where a change (for better) with my CD player and my power amplifier: why not in a crossover? This time: I "saved" money buying directly some "reasonably" priced caps for my crossover. I'm not interested in endless testing as I prefer listening to music. ;-)
Ok. Some just don't believe it could be possible some capacitors could give better or worse something. I know fakes could also exist because it's a good way to make money. Some audiophile capacitors are fake? Maybe. Pick up a good reseller. All of those audiophile capacitors are meaningless? I've made up my opinion.
In certain systems, many folk can hear the differences with many caps, of course those differences are going to vary with caps compared, and in what circuit and place in the circuit.
And more so the perceptive abilities of the persons present play a very big part, It's not about hearing ability!
I and many others, defiantly have heard differences
If someone can detect the differences...work with it. If someone can't.....who cares!
Try a few and form an opinion through first had experience
And more so the perceptive abilities of the persons present play a very big part, It's not about hearing ability!
I and many others, defiantly have heard differences
If someone can detect the differences...work with it. If someone can't.....who cares!
Try a few and form an opinion through first had experience
(I don't care/give a hoot either way)
See, dre.
This is why many folks that do hear differences with components don't bother adding to threads like this.
So, best not to even try so called bouquet caps, as the knowledgeable folk here have stated that it won't make any or little difference
hmm...I better remove all the Duelund caps from my system! hehe....maybe I'll just leave them in after all
I use what ever cap works best, it may be a Wima, or it might be a Duelund VSF cap. Sometimes It's a cheap and cheerful type of cap that works best in a given position, but sometimes there are real benefits from using a better cap.
This is why many folks that do hear differences with components don't bother adding to threads like this.
So, best not to even try so called bouquet caps, as the knowledgeable folk here have stated that it won't make any or little difference
hmm...I better remove all the Duelund caps from my system! hehe....maybe I'll just leave them in after all
I use what ever cap works best, it may be a Wima, or it might be a Duelund VSF cap. Sometimes It's a cheap and cheerful type of cap that works best in a given position, but sometimes there are real benefits from using a better cap.
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I agree, DF96
Budget is a real consideration, in my view/experience very good results can be gotten from carefully considered cheap/affordable parts.
Further gains can be had using boutique parts, but they still need to be given the same careful consideration in choosing what parts to use where and with what other parts.
It's up to the individual if the gain is worth the investment to them.
Budget is a real consideration, in my view/experience very good results can be gotten from carefully considered cheap/affordable parts.
Further gains can be had using boutique parts, but they still need to be given the same careful consideration in choosing what parts to use where and with what other parts.
It's up to the individual if the gain is worth the investment to them.
Apparently you don't (or do), your 513-post track record says so, including the very last addition.
Maybe a good moment to question the point of continued efforts of $50 Banana sale speeches in the men's room ?
Assuming you're not a commercial sales individual, single remaining option is that it serves to satisfy a personal craving.
(I really don't care, I both eat bananas and use the restroom, with the seat down)
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Geez!
What a dummy spit!
Have fun with that
Edit: Oh! and I do post my experiences in this hobby, because I'm not intimidated by posts like yours.
I'll add that I'm a Pensioner, and have nothing to sell, so you are way....WAY off with ya' crazy assumptions
Chat later
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Name-calling commonly is a clear sign of incapacity/impotence (as in helpless)
(in real life, the exception to that rule of thumb is a streetfighter, who uses it to buy some strategic assessment time, before hitting someone)
Fortunately I'm the one who plays pleasant nice-guy on the web, and soon to be quite well-off retiree.
The sheer thought of turning into a pensioner wise-guy does give me the willies though.
The small conversation did bare some "fruit", it takes "well seasoned ones" to appreciate the finest. I dare say, as usual.
Cheerio, tata, I'm off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz.
data,
I understand your frustration. But it's just not as simple as we might like it to be. And given the prevalence of snake-oil salemen in the hi-fi world, the dismissive attitudes of the technically-knowledgable people here are also understandable.
This is a good "reality check" article, by a knowledgable and well-respected person:
Capacitor Characteristics
But I am not as quick to reject all claims that different caps might sound different. I figure it's possible that since most of the people making such claims are less technically-knowledgable, there could be any number of other problems they have unknowingly created or allowed that could render a system susceptible or sensitive to variations in cap parameters.
I also wonder how many of the people who have claimed to have heard differences between different types of electrolytic caps have even bothered to measure the actual capacitances (and dissipation factors or ESRs) of the capacitors they have compared. I never see them mention it. I wonder if they realize what kind of tolerance range their capacitor values have? While some modern electrolytics have capacitance tolerances of +/-20%, they often have tolerances such as +80%/-20%. So a 100% difference in the capacitances is possible, even with brand new capacitors that are within specs! That, alone, could explain why two caps could "sound different". And the possibility that wildly-different capacitance values have been compared is aggravated significantly if the person involved has also latched onto the "NOS" (New, Old Stock) faith, which might be good for certain vacuum tubes that are no longer made but is the strongest opposite of good for electrolytic capacitors.
The needed capacitor measurements cannot be performed with a simple multimeter with a capacitance measurement capability, although that would definitely be far better than nothing. But for the price of a set of boutique caps (say $200-$300 USD), one can purchase a halfway-decent handheld LCRZ meter, with a four-wire probe set (and auto-calibration using shorted and open conditions), that WILL measure the equivalent series and parallel parasitic values, as well as the main capacitance value, over a range of audio frequencies.
On the other hand, measurements at audio frequencies might not be enough, if the person comparing caps also has no appreciation for the effects that RF (Radio Frequency) energy can induce in their system, and maybe especially if they are also one of the far-too-typical "minimum number of components" afficionados, and have no RF protection in their signal paths, or power inputs, or audio outputs. Considering the possibility that different caps might affect how much RF is infiltrating their system, perhaps they are hearing the effects of rectified RF re-setting DC bias points of semiconductor circuits, differently, somewhere in their system, or perhaps even changing the DC offset of the audio outputs and causing their speakers' voice coils to be biased off-center.
The bottom line seems to be that even if someone has been hearing differences, they have not (to my knowledge) controlled the experiments nearly well-enough, and have not provided the data that would have been necessary and sufficient for anyone else to be able to be sure that they eliminated all of the more-likely reasons for the differences heard, of which the above are only a few examples of the many possibilities. And beyond that, as Rod Elliot has mentioned in the article at the link above, even if everything was extremely well-controlled, the experiment would also need to be a double-blind type, to have any hope of validity.
Regards,
Tom
I understand your frustration. But it's just not as simple as we might like it to be. And given the prevalence of snake-oil salemen in the hi-fi world, the dismissive attitudes of the technically-knowledgable people here are also understandable.
This is a good "reality check" article, by a knowledgable and well-respected person:
Capacitor Characteristics
But I am not as quick to reject all claims that different caps might sound different. I figure it's possible that since most of the people making such claims are less technically-knowledgable, there could be any number of other problems they have unknowingly created or allowed that could render a system susceptible or sensitive to variations in cap parameters.
I also wonder how many of the people who have claimed to have heard differences between different types of electrolytic caps have even bothered to measure the actual capacitances (and dissipation factors or ESRs) of the capacitors they have compared. I never see them mention it. I wonder if they realize what kind of tolerance range their capacitor values have? While some modern electrolytics have capacitance tolerances of +/-20%, they often have tolerances such as +80%/-20%. So a 100% difference in the capacitances is possible, even with brand new capacitors that are within specs! That, alone, could explain why two caps could "sound different". And the possibility that wildly-different capacitance values have been compared is aggravated significantly if the person involved has also latched onto the "NOS" (New, Old Stock) faith, which might be good for certain vacuum tubes that are no longer made but is the strongest opposite of good for electrolytic capacitors.
The needed capacitor measurements cannot be performed with a simple multimeter with a capacitance measurement capability, although that would definitely be far better than nothing. But for the price of a set of boutique caps (say $200-$300 USD), one can purchase a halfway-decent handheld LCRZ meter, with a four-wire probe set (and auto-calibration using shorted and open conditions), that WILL measure the equivalent series and parallel parasitic values, as well as the main capacitance value, over a range of audio frequencies.
On the other hand, measurements at audio frequencies might not be enough, if the person comparing caps also has no appreciation for the effects that RF (Radio Frequency) energy can induce in their system, and maybe especially if they are also one of the far-too-typical "minimum number of components" afficionados, and have no RF protection in their signal paths, or power inputs, or audio outputs. Considering the possibility that different caps might affect how much RF is infiltrating their system, perhaps they are hearing the effects of rectified RF re-setting DC bias points of semiconductor circuits, differently, somewhere in their system, or perhaps even changing the DC offset of the audio outputs and causing their speakers' voice coils to be biased off-center.
The bottom line seems to be that even if someone has been hearing differences, they have not (to my knowledge) controlled the experiments nearly well-enough, and have not provided the data that would have been necessary and sufficient for anyone else to be able to be sure that they eliminated all of the more-likely reasons for the differences heard, of which the above are only a few examples of the many possibilities. And beyond that, as Rod Elliot has mentioned in the article at the link above, even if everything was extremely well-controlled, the experiment would also need to be a double-blind type, to have any hope of validity.
Regards,
Tom
It helps to understand what's actually been said as opposed to some cartoon.
1. Sometimes there's an audible difference, sometimes there's not. Sometimes there's one that's imagined. All are possibilities.
2. When there is an audible difference, there's a simple technical (and hence demonstrable) reason, having nothing to do with audiophile legends.
3. Boutique caps fall into two categories: relabeled standard caps and small-production (or handmade) caps. In the latter case, the acoustic/electrical performance is likely to be poorer than good quality standard caps. This poorer electrical performance may or may not be actually audible, but when it is, it is sometimes preferred subjectively by some people.
None of this is the same as what you've characterized as the rationalist argument.
As usual, gootee brings some much-needed wisdom to the discussion.
Of course some capacitors in some circuits can sound slightly different, but that is because of real things like construction quality (normal industrial/commercial often being the best) and dielectric choice (don't use a non-linear dielectric for the cap which sets the dominant LF pole), not price and brand name. What real investigation has been done shows mainly that expensive 'audiophile' caps are either:
1. identical to ordinary caps
2. inferior to ordinary caps, either through fraud or inappropriate 'hand construction' - would you want to buy a 'hand-made' transistor?
PS just noticed that Stuart and I have said roughly the same thing at the same time
Of course some capacitors in some circuits can sound slightly different, but that is because of real things like construction quality (normal industrial/commercial often being the best) and dielectric choice (don't use a non-linear dielectric for the cap which sets the dominant LF pole), not price and brand name. What real investigation has been done shows mainly that expensive 'audiophile' caps are either:
1. identical to ordinary caps
2. inferior to ordinary caps, either through fraud or inappropriate 'hand construction' - would you want to buy a 'hand-made' transistor?
PS just noticed that Stuart and I have said roughly the same thing at the same time
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