Mr Butch Gootee,
but why the Frustration ?
In general, it's not the "technically-knowledgable" who display a dismissive attitude towards the dark side, go bananas, or try to straighten a banana with fake arguements.
As part of an arguemental technique, boutique shop clients do often use demeaning phrases toward one's profession/education.
(in this instance, Scarecrow comes to mind, in need of a brain transplant)
Or hasten to add that they also use generic brands, where "applicable", also a classic and very handy arguementative tool, aimed at covering their back.
All in all, there's the burning urge/desire, over and again, to talk others into spending a lot more on fashionable items.
(anyone who hasn't lost track on how many vogue brands have passed over the decades ?)
In my loudspeakers, I use several thousand dollars worth of hq-foil caps in large value (no pr speech), based on construction/properties/material/sound. Even at the scam rate I got them (+ dodging sales tax, was 19%), I wouldn't dream of talking others into them, not once.
But I love to talk shop where/when "applicable", if it's cap tech, not just label.
So where's the uptightness originating from, of those who do, endlessly ?
Rationally, one would guess a need for acknowledgement/recognition, not sharing.
Come now, young dog or old, one can not be both a knee-bender and that other cerebral thing simultaneously.
(trivia moment : inhabitants of Queensland, which includes Brisbane, go by the name B-Benders)
Oh, look at the time already, got to make like a banana, and split.
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It is simple. All about price to performance ratio. Believe me, I can hear tiny differences in sound that most people cannot, but I've never wanted to use boutique parts, for a reason you may want to understand.
So you want to make a crossover for your speaker. Now what drivers do you use? If a stereo Audio Note foil cap is $100 more expensive than Solen caps, then depends on what driver you already have, I may probably be able to improve the system more by buying more expensive tweeter.
So you see from above example, knowledge gives you more options. If you cannot make speaker, then apply to you that well designed speaker with cheap drivers can be better than badly designed speaker with expensive drivers. But if you can make speaker, you can always get the most out of expensive drivers.
So even if for example you don't have the knowledge, always think about this: "Is there something else that I can do to improve the system instead of buying boutique parts?"
Here is a more "down to earth". If your driver is a Vifa, you can make a better speaker by replacing the driver than using those boutique caps. But of course you are limited to your knowledge, but hey, if you get the idea, you can look for other people design with better drivers.
For crossover, right values is usually more important than slightly better cap (don't forget cap tolerance). I usually prefer cheap MKP 6.6uF (because I need 6.6uF) than Auricap 6.8uF (standard value, which "cannot" be reduced by paralleling)
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J-Jay,
but that's also part of the problem.
It requires technical expertise, and transforming into something one may not have the urge for, instant gratification by a color/flavor swap is sweeter. (which fits nicely into the consumer behavior shift of the last decades, primal urge is driven by preconditioning)
And a system upgrade by buying complete components of higher performance may not be in the budget.
Or instead of saving up, the cash is spent on glamour add-ons, drop-ins, or sideline items as audio magazines.
Gawd knows I've sinned.
Started with 1 magazine, before I stopped to think it through, I was spell-checking 5-6 issues a month. The +1000 in ~15 years time could have bought gear/books new or much sooner. Still have all of them stashed, part to remind me to repent for being a sinner-man in heat.
The outcome in the majority of cases is a budget set, consisting of refurbished components, entry-level loudspeakers which fit on a shelf, assembled kits, with shiny bead & mirror exchangeables.
Like a customised old vehicle with bling add-ons. (holding my breath for a jumping lowrider audio set)
Any comment in that direction, will be countermeasured by the statement that upgrade changes are most significant on more common gear.
(Oops, only half an hour left before the Zoo closes. High time to walk myself, before the cage count starts)
but that's also part of the problem.
It requires technical expertise, and transforming into something one may not have the urge for, instant gratification by a color/flavor swap is sweeter. (which fits nicely into the consumer behavior shift of the last decades, primal urge is driven by preconditioning)
And a system upgrade by buying complete components of higher performance may not be in the budget.
Or instead of saving up, the cash is spent on glamour add-ons, drop-ins, or sideline items as audio magazines.
Gawd knows I've sinned.
Started with 1 magazine, before I stopped to think it through, I was spell-checking 5-6 issues a month. The +1000 in ~15 years time could have bought gear/books new or much sooner. Still have all of them stashed, part to remind me to repent for being a sinner-man in heat.
The outcome in the majority of cases is a budget set, consisting of refurbished components, entry-level loudspeakers which fit on a shelf, assembled kits, with shiny bead & mirror exchangeables.
Like a customised old vehicle with bling add-ons. (holding my breath for a jumping lowrider audio set)
Any comment in that direction, will be countermeasured by the statement that upgrade changes are most significant on more common gear.
(Oops, only half an hour left before the Zoo closes. High time to walk myself, before the cage count starts)
Jay:
I understand that you are not going to spend a fortune on filterparts with cheap drivers. The question I started this thread with is to describe under which technical conditions higher grade capacitors are beneficial. I'm trying to find out what people did to check the upgrade and to raise the discussion to higher level. Please tell us how the configuration of the filter, which parts you upgraded, by what parts. Did you measure anything etc. etc.
I understand that you are not going to spend a fortune on filterparts with cheap drivers. The question I started this thread with is to describe under which technical conditions higher grade capacitors are beneficial. I'm trying to find out what people did to check the upgrade and to raise the discussion to higher level. Please tell us how the configuration of the filter, which parts you upgraded, by what parts. Did you measure anything etc. etc.
Completely agree here. Several of these "audiophile capacitor test" sites like Humble Homemade Hifi have come about over the past few years and some of these types now have their own lines of capacitors or other components. Stay clear of them. I have tried costly audiophile approved capacitors and slowly sold them back into the audiophile community after testing them. They are no different from the cheapest lines of other film caps, and most are rebrands.
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The most likely affects that are being heard by the ones who claim they can hear a pin drop in the middle of a rock concert are easy to explain 99% of the time. The people doing the substitution are not making sure that the substituted parts have the identical electrical values. If you take a typical polypro capacitor and substitute another often times the values can be changed as much as 20% from the listed value on the capacitor in the worst case. In the best case it will still be at least a couple of percentage unless the two components are matched exactly. The filter network has shifted in both the crossover point, which changes the sum of the networks and the slope can be affected with the large value changes. This is what I think people hear with these silly changes based only on the name and marketing of the esoteric components. Match them exactly and see if you can hear the difference, highly unlikely unless there is something wrong with one of the components to begin with.
I have to say that I am more ready to believe the claims of someone who has made actual comparisons than someone who posts claims with no concrete evidence or examples.
In this thread alone, but also in many others, the following "points" have been, and are always, made:
Marketers of upscale (boutique, snake oil, call them what you will) caps are offering relabeled standard (or even inferior) quality/construction/materials caps and charging more for them. Naive builders and others claim the relabeled caps are somehow superior to the identical standard brands. The same claim has been made numerous times, but no evidence or examples are ever provided.
People who use crappy drivers or bad speaker designs expect using expensive caps will make them superior to better drivers or better designs. A better cap is never used to improve an already excellent design using the best drivers. No examples were provided.
Web sites that offer evaluations of cap performance make their own parts and sell them, or have some other motive for grading some caps superior to others. Notice that the more expensive caps always receive a higher rating? What else could that possibly tell you other than that the evaluator is somehow in cahoots with cap manufacturers? Aren't they all crooks? No examples were provided, just general slander.
Decent caps can typically vary by 20% from stated value, and people who use them are stupid enough to not be aware that filter parameters will be affected by such large differences in value. No examples were provided, and I honestly believe that no one (certainly not 99%) who builds or modifies crossovers would buy caps with that awful tolerance without knowing how to use them.
I think you guys are making stuff up. Other than self-assured superiority and smug insults, what do you have to offer? Can you provide any concrete evidence or specific examples? Or do we just have to believe you because you KNOW better and the rest of us, the ones who listen carefully and compare, are just biased, delusional fools?
In that case, I will take the word of anyone who dares to risk your ridicule by taking the time and expense to make actual investigations and share the results rather than posting legends and insulting arguments.
Regards,
Tom E
In this thread alone, but also in many others, the following "points" have been, and are always, made:
Marketers of upscale (boutique, snake oil, call them what you will) caps are offering relabeled standard (or even inferior) quality/construction/materials caps and charging more for them. Naive builders and others claim the relabeled caps are somehow superior to the identical standard brands. The same claim has been made numerous times, but no evidence or examples are ever provided.
People who use crappy drivers or bad speaker designs expect using expensive caps will make them superior to better drivers or better designs. A better cap is never used to improve an already excellent design using the best drivers. No examples were provided.
Web sites that offer evaluations of cap performance make their own parts and sell them, or have some other motive for grading some caps superior to others. Notice that the more expensive caps always receive a higher rating? What else could that possibly tell you other than that the evaluator is somehow in cahoots with cap manufacturers? Aren't they all crooks? No examples were provided, just general slander.
Decent caps can typically vary by 20% from stated value, and people who use them are stupid enough to not be aware that filter parameters will be affected by such large differences in value. No examples were provided, and I honestly believe that no one (certainly not 99%) who builds or modifies crossovers would buy caps with that awful tolerance without knowing how to use them.
I think you guys are making stuff up. Other than self-assured superiority and smug insults, what do you have to offer? Can you provide any concrete evidence or specific examples? Or do we just have to believe you because you KNOW better and the rest of us, the ones who listen carefully and compare, are just biased, delusional fools?
In that case, I will take the word of anyone who dares to risk your ridicule by taking the time and expense to make actual investigations and share the results rather than posting legends and insulting arguments.
Regards,
Tom E
umm, yeah I think Steven and gootee have some first hand knowledge of using different caps in speaker crossovers... or is it a requirement that you write it all down in an 'amateur' blog?
myself I have a preference for tight tolerance teflon/copper foil caps when needed and when i'm going all out. I dont have a crossover but for signal coupling I do use film caps in a common gate discrete IV stage (everything else is DC coupled), I prefer that, just as I prefer zfoil resistors to make sure i'm giving the design the best chance. however comparing and reporting a bunch of combinations of caps and their 'burn in' over time seems of dubious benefit, since even if there were a significant audible difference, it would be different for every application and then theres the language thing.
myself I have a preference for tight tolerance teflon/copper foil caps when needed and when i'm going all out. I dont have a crossover but for signal coupling I do use film caps in a common gate discrete IV stage (everything else is DC coupled), I prefer that, just as I prefer zfoil resistors to make sure i'm giving the design the best chance. however comparing and reporting a bunch of combinations of caps and their 'burn in' over time seems of dubious benefit, since even if there were a significant audible difference, it would be different for every application and then theres the language thing.
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Madisonears,
I will not put into writing here names, but yes I have personally seen the practice of high end capacitors made by one manufacturer that were in fact nothing more than a different outer wrapper. I was told this and given entire bags of those capacitors for my personal use. They were different in cover only, exactly the same capacitor as the regular capacitors they made every day. I have them in crossovers and I do know the name of who sold them, I will not name that company, you don't have to believe me, I don't care.
On the other point that people do not measure the values, do you have a way to test your capacitors or do you believe the value given on the outside as gospel or what. I was explaining away 99% of what happens, you don't have to believe me on that either but I bet you have never checked values to dispute that the values are not matched exactly, if you think that a few percentage change is not real and does not shift the networks response, you have never done this. It is that simple, you want to believe as a true believer in this bull, it is obvious as you can not back up all your contrary post. When I make a crossover I measure every value and use multiple capacitors ganged together to get exact values, and I will do the same with inductors, unwind wire until each coil measures identical value and match the desired value selected. Your post reads as nothing but an audiophile manufacturers dream. Believe everything a marketer says and that is that.
I will not put into writing here names, but yes I have personally seen the practice of high end capacitors made by one manufacturer that were in fact nothing more than a different outer wrapper. I was told this and given entire bags of those capacitors for my personal use. They were different in cover only, exactly the same capacitor as the regular capacitors they made every day. I have them in crossovers and I do know the name of who sold them, I will not name that company, you don't have to believe me, I don't care.
On the other point that people do not measure the values, do you have a way to test your capacitors or do you believe the value given on the outside as gospel or what. I was explaining away 99% of what happens, you don't have to believe me on that either but I bet you have never checked values to dispute that the values are not matched exactly, if you think that a few percentage change is not real and does not shift the networks response, you have never done this. It is that simple, you want to believe as a true believer in this bull, it is obvious as you can not back up all your contrary post. When I make a crossover I measure every value and use multiple capacitors ganged together to get exact values, and I will do the same with inductors, unwind wire until each coil measures identical value and match the desired value selected. Your post reads as nothing but an audiophile manufacturers dream. Believe everything a marketer says and that is that.
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Lots of people have lots of experiences. If all you're doing is relating experiences, none is more valid than any other under similar conditions. If you want to share them, you shouldn't be ridiculed for offering your opinion.
There is lots of very reasonable advice given here about basic qualities of good caps, and some pretty wild claims about deception and delusion. I would like the claims, from any viewpoint, to be validated with evidence.
I will retract one accusation. As mentioned previously in this thread, Humble HiFi does sell parts that he recommends. Perhaps he sells them because he honestly believes they're worthwhile, or perhaps he's devious enough to recommend them because he sells them. I prefer to believe the former, but still I think that's a no-no. Frankly, as many times as I've referred to his site for opinions (not because his opinion is more valid than anyone else's, but he has heard far more caps than I ever will), I've never even noticed the banner at the top offering sales and services. Now I must admit that my confidence in his opinions is somewhat diminished. I will say this, though: of the caps he and I have auditioned, I usually agree with his general opinions. In the case of the Audyn True Copper, he has definitley picked a winner. For a copper foil cap with the sonics if offers, it is a real bargain. I have recommended it to others, and they all agree. We can't all be deluded.
To answer the original poster, as best I can, in VERY general terms: put the best cap in series with the tweeter and midrange. Most people would say tweeter is most important, but I'm not so sure. I think most of the harshness or other problems commonly associated with tweeter response is actually caused by uppermost range of midrange or tweeter crossed too low. I don't think a better cap will fix those or other design problems, but it can't hurt to use decent parts. You should not spend more on a cap than you did on the driver. Any amount up to that depends on your budget and obsession. You can combine large value film caps with smaller value, better quality caps to achieve good sound.
Film and foil caps are almost universally better sounding than metalized film. Silver foil is pricey and superbly (excessively?) detailed, while copper foil is lush and still detailed. Tin is one notch down in smoothness, with aluminum generally inferior to that. Teflon is probably the least offensive film, but polypropylene is not far behind in measured and perceived quality. Polystyrene has some desirable qualities, but is not generally available except in small values. Polyester lags far behind, but can be a cheap alternative where large values are needed. Avoid electrolytics except where absolutley necessary, and then at least consider using active xovers with additional amps.
Having written all that, perhaps the best cap I have heard in series with a tweeter is the Mundorf Silver/Oil. I don't care for silver anything or for most other Mundorf caps, but the SIO is a bit special on the tweeter, with its combination of sweetness, detail, and depth. I think it is the rare case when all the disparate components of its construction come together to form a unique voice. Is it colored? I don't know and don't care. Does it provide a window into the music? Like no other that I've heard. But it will not change a cheap tweeter into a SS. You could use a small value in combination with a large generic cap and still get most of the benefit.
I am a man of modest means and don't care at all for bling. My amps and xovers are built in plain aluminum enclosures. I use toggle switches for power. Nothing is more than it needs to be. My speaker enclosures aren't even painted. My IC's and speaker cables are homemade and do not have a glamorous techflex wrapping. My equipment stand is thick plywood slabs laying on bricks. But when it comes to sound, I try to get the best I can achieve. Sometimes that includes fancy caps. If you're selective and put them where they can contribute, they are worth every penny of the cost.
Peace,
Tom E
There is lots of very reasonable advice given here about basic qualities of good caps, and some pretty wild claims about deception and delusion. I would like the claims, from any viewpoint, to be validated with evidence.
I will retract one accusation. As mentioned previously in this thread, Humble HiFi does sell parts that he recommends. Perhaps he sells them because he honestly believes they're worthwhile, or perhaps he's devious enough to recommend them because he sells them. I prefer to believe the former, but still I think that's a no-no. Frankly, as many times as I've referred to his site for opinions (not because his opinion is more valid than anyone else's, but he has heard far more caps than I ever will), I've never even noticed the banner at the top offering sales and services. Now I must admit that my confidence in his opinions is somewhat diminished. I will say this, though: of the caps he and I have auditioned, I usually agree with his general opinions. In the case of the Audyn True Copper, he has definitley picked a winner. For a copper foil cap with the sonics if offers, it is a real bargain. I have recommended it to others, and they all agree. We can't all be deluded.
To answer the original poster, as best I can, in VERY general terms: put the best cap in series with the tweeter and midrange. Most people would say tweeter is most important, but I'm not so sure. I think most of the harshness or other problems commonly associated with tweeter response is actually caused by uppermost range of midrange or tweeter crossed too low. I don't think a better cap will fix those or other design problems, but it can't hurt to use decent parts. You should not spend more on a cap than you did on the driver. Any amount up to that depends on your budget and obsession. You can combine large value film caps with smaller value, better quality caps to achieve good sound.
Film and foil caps are almost universally better sounding than metalized film. Silver foil is pricey and superbly (excessively?) detailed, while copper foil is lush and still detailed. Tin is one notch down in smoothness, with aluminum generally inferior to that. Teflon is probably the least offensive film, but polypropylene is not far behind in measured and perceived quality. Polystyrene has some desirable qualities, but is not generally available except in small values. Polyester lags far behind, but can be a cheap alternative where large values are needed. Avoid electrolytics except where absolutley necessary, and then at least consider using active xovers with additional amps.
Having written all that, perhaps the best cap I have heard in series with a tweeter is the Mundorf Silver/Oil. I don't care for silver anything or for most other Mundorf caps, but the SIO is a bit special on the tweeter, with its combination of sweetness, detail, and depth. I think it is the rare case when all the disparate components of its construction come together to form a unique voice. Is it colored? I don't know and don't care. Does it provide a window into the music? Like no other that I've heard. But it will not change a cheap tweeter into a SS. You could use a small value in combination with a large generic cap and still get most of the benefit.
I am a man of modest means and don't care at all for bling. My amps and xovers are built in plain aluminum enclosures. I use toggle switches for power. Nothing is more than it needs to be. My speaker enclosures aren't even painted. My IC's and speaker cables are homemade and do not have a glamorous techflex wrapping. My equipment stand is thick plywood slabs laying on bricks. But when it comes to sound, I try to get the best I can achieve. Sometimes that includes fancy caps. If you're selective and put them where they can contribute, they are worth every penny of the cost.
Peace,
Tom E
Well now you're really off base and just ranting.
I measure every part and adjust/combine coils, caps, etc till they're right. I use a cheap LCR, but I just referenced it to 0.1uF caps I bought that were matched on some super-duper machine to five decimal places. I made a little joke when the seller told me that, but I really have no reason to doubt him. My meter agrees within 1/2 percent. That's close enough, even for me. I also check every part I use in any circuit before soldering it in, even 1% resistors in a sealed baggie.
So, how much did you want to bet? I don't believe ANYTHING as gospel, even the Gospel.
Please send me a private message with the name of the fraudulent caps. I will not divulge it. I really need to know. Do you think this is a widespread practice? Is every cap maker/seller guilty of this deception because you know of one? Are all of them crooks? Why would a manufacturer choose to let you in on the big lie?
A 2% variation in cap value will result in +/- 50Hz variation of xover frequency around 3000Hz. Can you or anyone else can hear that? I'm not saying they shouldn't be matched between channels for tweeters, which is critical, but within a single crossover that much variation is pretty much meaningless. I think it would be easier to hear differences between identical values of different type caps than it would be to hear such small value differences of the same type cap.
Regards,
Tom E
I measure every part and adjust/combine coils, caps, etc till they're right. I use a cheap LCR, but I just referenced it to 0.1uF caps I bought that were matched on some super-duper machine to five decimal places. I made a little joke when the seller told me that, but I really have no reason to doubt him. My meter agrees within 1/2 percent. That's close enough, even for me. I also check every part I use in any circuit before soldering it in, even 1% resistors in a sealed baggie.
So, how much did you want to bet? I don't believe ANYTHING as gospel, even the Gospel.
Please send me a private message with the name of the fraudulent caps. I will not divulge it. I really need to know. Do you think this is a widespread practice? Is every cap maker/seller guilty of this deception because you know of one? Are all of them crooks? Why would a manufacturer choose to let you in on the big lie?
A 2% variation in cap value will result in +/- 50Hz variation of xover frequency around 3000Hz. Can you or anyone else can hear that? I'm not saying they shouldn't be matched between channels for tweeters, which is critical, but within a single crossover that much variation is pretty much meaningless. I think it would be easier to hear differences between identical values of different type caps than it would be to hear such small value differences of the same type cap.
Regards,
Tom E
Madison,
I don't want to name the name of the company as that is something I agreed not to do. Am I saying that every manufacturer is lying about what they produce, no. What I am trying to say is that most of the companies selling these caps do not produce anything, someone else is making them for them, they are just resellers in effect. One cap that I saw made had two changes to it, the lead out wire was a stranded lead, and the end cap was a different colored epoxy. That was the entire change in the capacitor, the film used was the stock film, not wound any tighter or anything else, the cost to the end customer was four times the cost of the normal capacitor for those two changes. The same can be said for many inductors. Listen I bought many coils made to my exacting values from Erse. They are very pretty perfect layer wound coils, I can find no fault with the inductors. But do I really believe that if they weren't perfect layer that they would not work the same or have the same effect in the crossover, no. It is a manufacturing method they offer and they look nice, I appreciate that and paid for that but it doesn't affect the quality of the sound if I had used an inductor that was not perfect wound, and I do not think if I used hexagonal wire anyone could hear that, it is again just nice looking and nothing more and I am not willing to pay the cost for that. My crossovers are not in glass boxes so you can look at how pretty they are.
On the fact that you check the value of the capacitors, even those that a manufacturer has labeled as 1% or even better I applaud you for that, I am the same way. But many others don't even own a simple LCR meter and make these ludicrous claims that they can hear a difference in capacitors by willy nilly changes capacitors. They are changing the network function much more than they can imagine and hear a real difference because of that. You must understand that we can hear a 1db change in response, and that is being nice here about what they are doing 99% of the time. That is why I said if we are replacing like capacitors for like, metallized film for metallized film, not metallized film for film and foil. I am not sure you could hear that in a passive network, I can not say that, in an active electronic circuit I think it could make a difference, but in a passive network I am not convince but can't say I have tested that to say for sure. Most network design that I read on this site is to me improperly done and some of the ideas floated about the acoustical slope verses the electrical function just don't make sense if you have read Self on electronic crossovers or others and what it is that I understand. To much is made of simulation and not enough follow-up is done with actual acoustical testing to confirm that the network with an actual speaker in the actual box matches these simulations. That is just a foolish assumption based on theoretical results. I am building speakers, not building boxes and placing a commodity speaker in a box. I select the magnets, design the steel parts, produce my own cones and am working on other pieces of the loudspeaker that most others would never think to do. I have been doing and learning for a long time, I have others who still mentor me in specific areas of the electronic side, they have more than 50 years in the professional audio side of things. They do understand the differences between what you read in a book and what is real when you get out all the B&K equipment and start testing the theory and the reality. I am constantly in school so to say, that is why I am here in specific forums to learn more on the circuit design side that I have left to others to do. It has taken years to learn some of the things I have and to understand some of the funny things I have seen and wondered why it wasn't in a book, what were these guys doing that other didn't even consider as important. I am all for the littlest detail, that is what makes the differences between really good and great.
I don't want to name the name of the company as that is something I agreed not to do. Am I saying that every manufacturer is lying about what they produce, no. What I am trying to say is that most of the companies selling these caps do not produce anything, someone else is making them for them, they are just resellers in effect. One cap that I saw made had two changes to it, the lead out wire was a stranded lead, and the end cap was a different colored epoxy. That was the entire change in the capacitor, the film used was the stock film, not wound any tighter or anything else, the cost to the end customer was four times the cost of the normal capacitor for those two changes. The same can be said for many inductors. Listen I bought many coils made to my exacting values from Erse. They are very pretty perfect layer wound coils, I can find no fault with the inductors. But do I really believe that if they weren't perfect layer that they would not work the same or have the same effect in the crossover, no. It is a manufacturing method they offer and they look nice, I appreciate that and paid for that but it doesn't affect the quality of the sound if I had used an inductor that was not perfect wound, and I do not think if I used hexagonal wire anyone could hear that, it is again just nice looking and nothing more and I am not willing to pay the cost for that. My crossovers are not in glass boxes so you can look at how pretty they are.
On the fact that you check the value of the capacitors, even those that a manufacturer has labeled as 1% or even better I applaud you for that, I am the same way. But many others don't even own a simple LCR meter and make these ludicrous claims that they can hear a difference in capacitors by willy nilly changes capacitors. They are changing the network function much more than they can imagine and hear a real difference because of that. You must understand that we can hear a 1db change in response, and that is being nice here about what they are doing 99% of the time. That is why I said if we are replacing like capacitors for like, metallized film for metallized film, not metallized film for film and foil. I am not sure you could hear that in a passive network, I can not say that, in an active electronic circuit I think it could make a difference, but in a passive network I am not convince but can't say I have tested that to say for sure. Most network design that I read on this site is to me improperly done and some of the ideas floated about the acoustical slope verses the electrical function just don't make sense if you have read Self on electronic crossovers or others and what it is that I understand. To much is made of simulation and not enough follow-up is done with actual acoustical testing to confirm that the network with an actual speaker in the actual box matches these simulations. That is just a foolish assumption based on theoretical results. I am building speakers, not building boxes and placing a commodity speaker in a box. I select the magnets, design the steel parts, produce my own cones and am working on other pieces of the loudspeaker that most others would never think to do. I have been doing and learning for a long time, I have others who still mentor me in specific areas of the electronic side, they have more than 50 years in the professional audio side of things. They do understand the differences between what you read in a book and what is real when you get out all the B&K equipment and start testing the theory and the reality. I am constantly in school so to say, that is why I am here in specific forums to learn more on the circuit design side that I have left to others to do. It has taken years to learn some of the things I have and to understand some of the funny things I have seen and wondered why it wasn't in a book, what were these guys doing that other didn't even consider as important. I am all for the littlest detail, that is what makes the differences between really good and great.
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It's not "devious," it's not "fraud," it's business.
If it makes you feel better to dismiss observations made by people with no commercial interest but many decades of professional experience and knowledge, that's certainly your right.
Tom,
a number of those are dreary old farts who have been investigating actual parts for decades.
In the early '80s, vdHul D102 cable sold for an equivalent of around $17/ft (at the current $/€ rate)
Turned out to be a Berkenhoff & Drebes off-the-reel industrial cable, for Way less, as were other items by van-den-Hul.
Aalt Jouk van den Hul still is a really pleasant fella, and talented.
And has a clear eye for business.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/ever...fficial-all-cables-sound-same.html#post509296
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...l-shielded-cable-input-wiring.html#post782635
Me, I've braided my own wires, or stuck 'm in a plastic tube with pieces of isolating cork.
I've wrapped my own foil capacitors, or took plastic wrappers off, crossed borders to buy the most exotic from Japan for top dollar, visited cap manufacturing facilities. What a retard, gimme a break.
Whether it's foil capacitors, cables, or other pleasure items, 9 out of 10 times it's Same-Old Same-Old.
YMMV.
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I'd have to look it up, means searching through a pile of pre ~'80s Xerox copies and post-'80s till end '90s magazines.
(stored in ~50 plastic crates in the attic of my garage/barn : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...age-audio-power-amplifier-22.html#post2533816 )
Fair chance that B&D no longer manufactures it after all those years, the D102 is currently at a mk3/5 edition.
On an entertainment side note : at the thread I linked to, the bloke from Portugal could identify the best sounding cable, as an Experienced Listener.
That same "expert" posted a picture of his "work" space on "another web location" : a 4' x 4' closet of his Lisboan apartment.
And his most treasured amplifier, a Krell 300 integrated.
(for some reason, I illude myself by imagining to be able to visualise distortion dripping off the edges of many loudspeakers)
(stored in ~50 plastic crates in the attic of my garage/barn : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/soli...age-audio-power-amplifier-22.html#post2533816 )
Fair chance that B&D no longer manufactures it after all those years, the D102 is currently at a mk3/5 edition.
On an entertainment side note : at the thread I linked to, the bloke from Portugal could identify the best sounding cable, as an Experienced Listener.
That same "expert" posted a picture of his "work" space on "another web location" : a 4' x 4' closet of his Lisboan apartment.
And his most treasured amplifier, a Krell 300 integrated.
(for some reason, I illude myself by imagining to be able to visualise distortion dripping off the edges of many loudspeakers)
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