Kef with their B160 in their Q15 speakers have done this but using a dull plastic cone the crossover frequency is very standard. Possibly The Origins of the Uni-Q
Tannoy in ICT Di5 speakers used a cone with whizzer and parasitic induction tweeter inside.
https://stereo-magazine.com/archive...rchive&cHash=3fb9a122ea45c9aac7cb3eebc62f5b70
However lightweight paper cones have "speed". I'd read about Fane 15" units being very good and my son who runs Sound Engineers | London Sound Engineering | AV Equipment Hire said "you'd get a better transient response by having 4 8s"
For domestic use the Celestion and Wharfedale modification suggestions I've made work really well.
Best wishes
David P
Tannoy in ICT Di5 speakers used a cone with whizzer and parasitic induction tweeter inside.
https://stereo-magazine.com/archive...rchive&cHash=3fb9a122ea45c9aac7cb3eebc62f5b70
However lightweight paper cones have "speed". I'd read about Fane 15" units being very good and my son who runs Sound Engineers | London Sound Engineering | AV Equipment Hire said "you'd get a better transient response by having 4 8s"
For domestic use the Celestion and Wharfedale modification suggestions I've made work really well.
Best wishes
David P
I tried it almost 30 years ago, using a neo dome tweeter. I ran a threaded pipe through the woofer's pole piece vent, so I could go in and adjust the position of the tweeter relative to the woofer cone, when I was measuring. Got to do that "at work" in DIGITAL's anechoic with their B&K equipment.
I made one big mistake...
In my ignorance, choose a woofer with a conical cone. The only position that yielded a somewhat flat response was all the way out, which negated the point source quality I was looking for. I didnt even get to the point of considering the xover between the two, the effect on the tweeter any distance inside that cone was so bad.
I so couldnt believe that was happening, I took one of the little Cambridge Soundworks speakers from a portable suitcase system they had and put in in the chamber in place of my speaker. That's what a speaker's response from someone that knows what they're doing measures like. I ultimately abandoned the project, sold the woofers after replacing the dustcaps...
You need a woofer with the correct cone profile to do this. Since most woofer manufacturers dont design a unit expecting someone to come along and toss a tweeter in there, naturally they make the cone profile something other than what would work very well for doing that. Maybe if you find just the right woofer, you can get the idea to work.
I was inspired after coming across a set of 12" Tannoys at a flea-market. The family needed a hardwood dining room set more than I needed the Tannoys. So I thought I could just "remake" them. The detail of the cone profile the Tannoys had wasnt noted and the whole idea went down in flames because I was so careless. I was even courting a speakerbuilder article, had it worked out.
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Yeah, need a curvilinear cone, but do they even use them on smaller drivers nowadays?
Now that 3" wide range tweeters, inexpensive DSP is available, wide range curvilinear 15" are still available with 3" VC, so seems a 'match made in heaven'. 😉
GM
Now that 3" wide range tweeters, inexpensive DSP is available, wide range curvilinear 15" are still available with 3" VC, so seems a 'match made in heaven'. 😉
GM
My idea is NOT new someone(you) tried it 30years ago...most times 'new' ideas had been tried before and discarded and rarely a gem of a new idea comes along.
Maybe the woofer you picked was a steep slant edge cone ie "deep" cone will a shallower cone be more suitable?
Possibly the angle of the slanted edge of the cone is critical to this kind of project/idea.
Grundig made a special version of their NT-3 wideband radio driver with a drilled through pole piece and mounted a tweeter on a pipe stuck through the pole piece holding the tweeter. Wiring for the tweeter went through pipe/polepiece. That was about 60 years ago 😉
The Isophon Orchestra range of speakers use a dual concentric mounted tweeter. I love Isophon speakers so imagine that these would sound absolutely fantastic, though I do not imagine that I will ever be able to afford their now astronomical prices. As such one of their big 12" woofers might make a good candidate for a DIY dual concentric.
I had the good fortune to re-surround a pair of 15" Tannoy Golds once - but ultimately I was very disappointed in their sound.
I have never heard a whizzered speaker that didn't have sibilant issues, but then again I have never heard the really expensive one's. To my mind allowing two point source drivers (main cone and whizzer) to interact in a confined space will inevitably cause significant comb effect interference which will result in muddied sound and harshness - which is what I hear when I listen to whizzer equipped drivers.
Shoog
I had the good fortune to re-surround a pair of 15" Tannoy Golds once - but ultimately I was very disappointed in their sound.
I have never heard a whizzered speaker that didn't have sibilant issues, but then again I have never heard the really expensive one's. To my mind allowing two point source drivers (main cone and whizzer) to interact in a confined space will inevitably cause significant comb effect interference which will result in muddied sound and harshness - which is what I hear when I listen to whizzer equipped drivers.
Shoog
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Its like a tapered horn. Very common in vintage drivers where the taper allows differential flex of the cone allowing the middle to move faster and more often than the outer edge. It fell out of favour because it uses extremely thin paper cones and has a tendency to break up badly if driven to hard.
You are very unlikely to find any current production speakers using this profile as they were dropped when high power transistor amps came in and all speakers migrated to sealed or ported enclosures with heavy cones.
Shoog
You are very unlikely to find any current production speakers using this profile as they were dropped when high power transistor amps came in and all speakers migrated to sealed or ported enclosures with heavy cones.
Shoog
I have an Isophon field coil driver with such a cone. The cone feels very soft and even "floppy", totally different from any modern driver with stiff cones. When I tried it out first I was disappointed as I just couldn't get any useful spl out of the thing. I told my wife about, she sat down to listen and we had a good laugh as music was playing and I opended my mouth to say "See, they are too silent!" and she only saw my lips move and couldn't hear a beep of what I said.
So we probably weren't driving them hard enough to reach that breakup you mention.
So we probably weren't driving them hard enough to reach that breakup you mention.
I have some German 8 Inch field coil drivers in my main system. They are bi-flex however which has a ring half way down the cone allowing the middle to move independently of the outer edge. They are great but push them to hard and they break up badly.
Shoog
Shoog
Here is a curvelinear cone you can buy today (there are many):
Be a shame to ruin the driver by adding a tweeter thou.
THis one might be more suitable, top starts falling off at 10k. Probably less if you remove the dustcap.
Another one 5k before dustcap removal, needs a bug BLH and high output impedance amplifier.
Be a shame to ruin the driver by adding a tweeter thou.
THis one might be more suitable, top starts falling off at 10k. Probably less if you remove the dustcap.
Another one 5k before dustcap removal, needs a bug BLH and high output impedance amplifier.
Gradient Axis AX-08 is a cheap FR driver from Finland. In comparison to Tang Band or Lowther and others they are slower, rounded transient attack, quiet unlinear in the mids and highs. Not very compatible with different music styles. Bass is not very tight.
BUT! In a big enclosure they are the best drivers I've heard with electronic music. Dreamwave or synthpop sounds also very good with these. Big bold picture, driving bass, smooth overall. They drive you right away into the music. Honestly I could not live with these drivers cos I also listen to classic, jazz, medieval, aor & westcoast. But if you are an electronic fan give them a try they sound incredible. Put your Blade Runner soundtrack on and you will get carried away in the synth waves of Mr. Vangelis
BUT! In a big enclosure they are the best drivers I've heard with electronic music. Dreamwave or synthpop sounds also very good with these. Big bold picture, driving bass, smooth overall. They drive you right away into the music. Honestly I could not live with these drivers cos I also listen to classic, jazz, medieval, aor & westcoast. But if you are an electronic fan give them a try they sound incredible. Put your Blade Runner soundtrack on and you will get carried away in the synth waves of Mr. Vangelis
With EQ:
Fostex FE208 Sigma = Sucks big time. IMO everything they do is plain wrong. They dont even sound like FR but like a dirt cheap 3-way from the 70's. Bloated, muddy, slow & smeared
Visaton B200 = Not bad but extreme series spread in the highs. Not the most transparent.
Lowther PM6A = Very fast and transparent but also extreme colored and only little bass & body. Without EQ unlistenable.
Philips 9710 = Colored but very nice and fun. Quiet compatible with a wide range of musical styles. They drive you into the music. Without EQ problematic due to 10dB rise at 3k5.
Dayton PS-220 = With jazz and ballads they have their strong moments. Not so good with rock and symphonic. Without EQ unlistenable. With EQ surprisingly linear.
Tang Band (all 8in drivers) = Fast, agile, great transient response, dry bass. Somewhat the opposite of Fostex. Only moderate EQ needed.
My personal favorite is the Philips AD-9710 in a TQWT. Rhythmic drive & musical and with EQ smoother than all the other 8in FR I know.
Fostex FE208 Sigma = Sucks big time. IMO everything they do is plain wrong. They dont even sound like FR but like a dirt cheap 3-way from the 70's. Bloated, muddy, slow & smeared
Visaton B200 = Not bad but extreme series spread in the highs. Not the most transparent.
Lowther PM6A = Very fast and transparent but also extreme colored and only little bass & body. Without EQ unlistenable.
Philips 9710 = Colored but very nice and fun. Quiet compatible with a wide range of musical styles. They drive you into the music. Without EQ problematic due to 10dB rise at 3k5.
Dayton PS-220 = With jazz and ballads they have their strong moments. Not so good with rock and symphonic. Without EQ unlistenable. With EQ surprisingly linear.
Tang Band (all 8in drivers) = Fast, agile, great transient response, dry bass. Somewhat the opposite of Fostex. Only moderate EQ needed.
My personal favorite is the Philips AD-9710 in a TQWT. Rhythmic drive & musical and with EQ smoother than all the other 8in FR I know.
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Haha, welcome to the club. After years of struggling with FR I decided to build a classic 3-way speaker. My problem with FR is also with rock and classic. I have heard commercial FR speakers up to $20.000 and countless DIY FR speakers but not one of them can handle symphonic music very well. Even a small good 2-way speaker sound way better with classic.
Tang Band W4-1337. Damped Titanium cone. I have a pair of these build in a hybrid BR/horn enclosure.
Well, the mids and human voices are lightyears better than Alpair 10 Gen.1-3. No metallic glare like the Alpair metals. Astonishingly deep bass for a 4in driver. More body than a Alpair 10 Gen.1-3 in a BR enclosure! Still not very good with rock & classic. Especially 70's rock and classic problematic like all FRs.
Alpair 10.1 was a quite different driver than the much evolved A10.2. The A10.3 is even smoother with more DDR. Bass extension potential was sacrificed.
The A10.1 has the same top end issues as the Jordan JX2 which makes them hard for me to listen to. A10.3 is almost as good as A7.3 midTop.
dave
Yeah right, the I is smoother. Alpair 6 dont have the metallic problem like gen2-3. The 10.3 is standing right here and even after 600h the female vocals are IMO unbearable. The Philips AD-9710 is maybe a tad more colored but way better.
BTW, Alpair 6 is IMHO the best desktop speaker on this planet. Simply fantastic.
BTW, Alpair 6 is IMHO the best desktop speaker on this planet. Simply fantastic.
Dave, are you sure you can correct up to 13dB (!) difference in the treble region?
The smaller the cone the esier it is to control the top of the driver’s range. Better than A10.any is Alpair 7x, A6.2m. A5.2/3. But the A10.3 gets close. For most people than makes the larger driver the best balance (ie move more air and can produce deeper bass.
The paper cone A6.2 (and the A10p) have what i call a vintage top end, some call it soft. Similar but different voicing,
I would not hesitate to libe with any of the latest drivers.
dave