Hello DIYA! Earlier today I drove down to Parts Express and picked up a DATS V3 and a Dayton EMM-6 measurement microphone. With my current depth of knowledge, I have admittedly gotten ahead of myself a little bit, but nothing lightens my wallet more than the excitement of a new hobby!
I have a question for you all. I have seen a lot of variations from a lot of people of the basic idea that "your first speaker design will be unsatisfactory to you, and it is mainly through trial and error (subsequent projects) that you will cultivate the makings of a competent speaker designer".
Intuitively, this makes sense to me, but I am curious to know if this idea is articulated with a specific example in the author's mind's eye.
So, here's my question. Having completed your first speaker build of your own design, what mistakes did you find that you made? What aspects of your design left the most room for improvement?
Thanks all! I'm excited to hear your answers.
I have a question for you all. I have seen a lot of variations from a lot of people of the basic idea that "your first speaker design will be unsatisfactory to you, and it is mainly through trial and error (subsequent projects) that you will cultivate the makings of a competent speaker designer".
Intuitively, this makes sense to me, but I am curious to know if this idea is articulated with a specific example in the author's mind's eye.
So, here's my question. Having completed your first speaker build of your own design, what mistakes did you find that you made? What aspects of your design left the most room for improvement?
Thanks all! I'm excited to hear your answers.
My biggest near-mistake was diving into the hobby whole-hog, as someone who had no experience in electronics or woodworking.
People will often tell you that if you want a good (cost-competitive with good commercial designs) result on your first attempt, you should build a kit or proven design. This is good advice, especially if it will be your first project woodworking or finishing. It may seem simple, but there is PLENTY to learn (and screw up!) when it comes to measuring, cutting, gluing and finishing the enclosure, and assembling and testing the drivers/crossover. Learning proper measurement and modelling theory and technique on top of that is a really a lot to do, especially if you're someone who likes to make sure they covered all the bases.
If you have a more process-oriented mindset, and enjoy systematically taking on and learning a hobby and all its' associated skills and tools, you may do well just diving in and waiting a long time to get a great result. Nothing wrong with that at all, I envy it! But if you aren't a tinkerer by nature, or maybe have ADHD and are prone to dipping in and out of hobbies before accomplishing what interested you in the first place, then starting with a strong 'proof of concept' like a kit can be the anchor that keeps you engaged, or draws you back in later when you fondly remember your high-value and successful first attempt, rather than your sunk-cost and frustration at a mediocre or unfinished result.
People will often tell you that if you want a good (cost-competitive with good commercial designs) result on your first attempt, you should build a kit or proven design. This is good advice, especially if it will be your first project woodworking or finishing. It may seem simple, but there is PLENTY to learn (and screw up!) when it comes to measuring, cutting, gluing and finishing the enclosure, and assembling and testing the drivers/crossover. Learning proper measurement and modelling theory and technique on top of that is a really a lot to do, especially if you're someone who likes to make sure they covered all the bases.
If you have a more process-oriented mindset, and enjoy systematically taking on and learning a hobby and all its' associated skills and tools, you may do well just diving in and waiting a long time to get a great result. Nothing wrong with that at all, I envy it! But if you aren't a tinkerer by nature, or maybe have ADHD and are prone to dipping in and out of hobbies before accomplishing what interested you in the first place, then starting with a strong 'proof of concept' like a kit can be the anchor that keeps you engaged, or draws you back in later when you fondly remember your high-value and successful first attempt, rather than your sunk-cost and frustration at a mediocre or unfinished result.
This is good advice, and I intend to take it! However, I am not very patient... And so, I currently have multiple projects in progress. One of them is a design from DIYA member xrk971, and the other is a design of my own. I've not been alive for very long, so when I say I am a lifelong audio enthusiast don't take me too seriously haha, but I feel my ascension (or descent depending on who you ask) into DIY audio has been a long time coming. I'm not sure if I have a "process-oriented mindset", but indeed I have whatever mindset it is that has made me a lurker and learner on this site for the past 4 or so months without actually building anything for myself! Haha.. Thanks for your answer!
I know the feeling re: impatience! For what it's worth, I dipped my toe in for the first time at age 16, purely as a way to get sound quality outside my budget. I had a commercial reference I wanted to beat, and researched kits for a long time before settling on one. It gave me years of delighted service before my interest returned to this hobby, but it was almost inevitable I would, since I had proven to myself that I could build something far better than I could afford otherwise. My interest in the 'hows and whys' developed later, and when I finally got to the 'design from scratch yourself' phase, the additional complexity , and my impatience to get a result derailed me many a time, and still does frequently.
IOW, It's important to know yourself and your psychology, and how you fare with open-ended complexity that can go on as long as you let it.
If I could give you one piece of advice, it would be to complete XRK's design to a state where you can use it regularly, and swap it in/out without a lot of hassle. Both so you can enjoy it and prove to yourself the merit of what you're doing, but also, to have a frame of reference for your own work. Even if you prefer your own design from day one, it's very useful to have a shared reference point with others. Too much of this hobby is purely subjective and relative, and with no common frame of reference, we can talk easily talk past each other, or use the same words but mean different things.
IOW, It's important to know yourself and your psychology, and how you fare with open-ended complexity that can go on as long as you let it.
If I could give you one piece of advice, it would be to complete XRK's design to a state where you can use it regularly, and swap it in/out without a lot of hassle. Both so you can enjoy it and prove to yourself the merit of what you're doing, but also, to have a frame of reference for your own work. Even if you prefer your own design from day one, it's very useful to have a shared reference point with others. Too much of this hobby is purely subjective and relative, and with no common frame of reference, we can talk easily talk past each other, or use the same words but mean different things.
I like what you are saying. I've sat with your words for awhile now and I think your ideas will prove helpful! I have a pair of Selah Tanzanite's right now as my main speaker, which is my "reference" but I honestly had not thought of it as a comparison point before.
Do you have a go to cable that you recommend? Most of my wires I bought from Mogami or Canare.
My driver choice was ok, but my measurement/crossover design skills sucked for about 2 years.
My first speakers were sealed, and because I'd read everywhere that you need a QTC of 0.7 for the most linear frequency response, that's what I aimed for. I've since realised that QTC is not important, it's the frequency response that you need to worry about. With a QTC of 0.85 my speaker were much more balanced sounding.
My advice would be to buy a couple of pairs of cheap, classic speakers (Kef Coda 7 etc Mission 731, JPW etc etc), reverse engineer, remove the drivers from one pair, and use the drivers in a new enclosure to try to improve on the original design. Keep one pair as a reference. You will find it a hell of a lot harder than you think.
My first speakers were sealed, and because I'd read everywhere that you need a QTC of 0.7 for the most linear frequency response, that's what I aimed for. I've since realised that QTC is not important, it's the frequency response that you need to worry about. With a QTC of 0.85 my speaker were much more balanced sounding.
My advice would be to buy a couple of pairs of cheap, classic speakers (Kef Coda 7 etc Mission 731, JPW etc etc), reverse engineer, remove the drivers from one pair, and use the drivers in a new enclosure to try to improve on the original design. Keep one pair as a reference. You will find it a hell of a lot harder than you think.
Tuning by ear can lead to lots of mistakes, including going around in circles, I think by far my biggest mistake was not investing in a graphic equaliser, which would have greatly assisted in pinpointing the frequencies that needed attention, rather than just guessing " that needs more treble, I'll boost it at 10,000 Hz "- anything over 1,000 hz sounds high.
Among all the parts of a speaker I'd say the internal cable is the least critical. For under 300 watts maximum nearly any 16 ga or fatter wire should work. Say dorman from the local auto supply - speakers don't exceed 50 v at that wattage.
OTOH, I managed to push a SP2-XT speaker into high frequency vibrato on top octave piano track, with 6 m of 16 gauge zip cord to the amp. That was at 1 watt from a 70 w/ch SS amp. Pianos don't produce vibrato.
2.5 m of 10 ga extra flexible SO cord from an industrial supply solved the problem. https://www.mcmaster.com/7081K17
It was salvage from the factory dumpster, so I don't know how cheap I could have gone and still had steady pitch tones.
I use regular electrical wiring without twisting, as doing so reduces effective length and therefore increases costs.
I made countless mistakes
.but I have the excuse that there was no internet and no useful measuring equipment available at that time.
one of the most obvious ones was placing the tweeter with the same distance to three baffle edges leading to very jagged frequency response.
calculating x-overs from simple formulas without considering real impedance plots.
non knowing and not considering baffle step.
not sealing the woofer properly.
building triangle shaped bass box and only realizing after construction that I did not calculate the surface of a triangle correctly: i took (height * width) instead of (height * width / 2).
.........
it was still fun, though.
Mistakes I have made... wow...
1) I glued a bulkhead-type window pane brace into a woofer cabinet, and the next day realized I had rotated it 90 degrees from correct orientation. I had to cut it out and make a new brace. I use the remains of the old brace as a reminder
2) I once made an error while merging the near field and far field responses of a small woofer, and this led to an error in my passive crossover. Fortunately, this was fixable.
3) I made the mistake of thinking that Windows Media Player would reproduce a test signal with a flat frequency response, like a CD player would do. After chasing phantoms in circles for a month, I realized my test signal had an EQ applied to it by Windows Media player. Switching to a third party audio player that used ASIO drivers fixed that one.
4) I had a woofer wired in reverse polarity for about a month before I discovered it. I thought I had all kinds of strange room modes, and I was experimenting with placement and room EQ.... I had thoroughly tested the Left hand speaker, but the Right hand speaker I simply assembled... Now I test both speakers.
j.
1) I glued a bulkhead-type window pane brace into a woofer cabinet, and the next day realized I had rotated it 90 degrees from correct orientation. I had to cut it out and make a new brace. I use the remains of the old brace as a reminder
2) I once made an error while merging the near field and far field responses of a small woofer, and this led to an error in my passive crossover. Fortunately, this was fixable.
3) I made the mistake of thinking that Windows Media Player would reproduce a test signal with a flat frequency response, like a CD player would do. After chasing phantoms in circles for a month, I realized my test signal had an EQ applied to it by Windows Media player. Switching to a third party audio player that used ASIO drivers fixed that one.
4) I had a woofer wired in reverse polarity for about a month before I discovered it. I thought I had all kinds of strange room modes, and I was experimenting with placement and room EQ.... I had thoroughly tested the Left hand speaker, but the Right hand speaker I simply assembled... Now I test both speakers.
j.
Attachments
I've made a mistake & I haven't even assembled the project yet. I bought 24" panels to build a 8 CF box because they will fit on my cargo bicycle. Full sheets from HD or Lowes cost $75 shipping or I could rent a u-haul truck for $80. Unfortunately a 24x24x24 box will have huge internal echoes at 551 hz. I should use the golden ratios for width, depth, length.
The biggest flaw I have is using old stuff and fixing old boxes that I should have thrown out years ago !!!
Example, like the ones in my Avatar!!
Yep, currently rebuilding that stack and one of the 1" MDF Technics cabinets got badly water damaged this last spring.
Do I keep it or just make a whole new stack of boxes but that would be about 8 of them.............
Hmmmmmmm.........
He,he,he,he,he......
FWIW
Cheers !!
jer
Example, like the ones in my Avatar!!
Yep, currently rebuilding that stack and one of the 1" MDF Technics cabinets got badly water damaged this last spring.
Do I keep it or just make a whole new stack of boxes but that would be about 8 of them.............
Hmmmmmmm.........
He,he,he,he,he......
FWIW
Cheers !!
jer
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OOF! I have made a similar mistake before.....but not on Lowthers.. I'm sorry for your loss
Wow! I'm not sure I would ever have located a software EQ.. You may just have helped me dodge a major bullet there. Thanks!
Still funI made countless mistakes
but I have the excuse that there was no internet and no useful measuring equipment available at that time.
one of the most obvious ones was placing the tweeter with the same distance to three baffle edges leading to very jagged frequency response.
calculating x-overs from simple formulas without considering real impedance plots.
non knowing and not considering baffle step.
not sealing the woofer properly.
building triangle shaped bass box and only realizing after construction that I did not calculate the surface of a triangle correctly: i took (height * width) instead of (height * width / 2).
.........
it was still fun, though.
I have never heard of the baffle edge distance idea. Good to know!