Pardon me too, but cult rendered in this forum to Altecs, Fostex, Lowther, or similars is simply gerontophilia to me...
The service prested by guys like Hiraga, or reviews like Sound Practices are pitta worth forgetting ASAP, and i hardly believe there is life woth living beyond Ariel, probably the only work worth mentionning by his author, whatever his further WE Rosetta, etc strange manias and directionless wanderings. Some guys overly simplicate, while others unncessarily complicate with irrelevant concerns, and this is sadly business as usual in audio, and an awfull waste of time for all...
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I don't think I've ever heard a pair (or set) of loudspeakers sound like a real symphonic orchestra. Have you ever heard the muted strings in Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra or Stravinsky's Firebird Suite live in a concert hall? After that, have you ever heard that weird, airy sound reproduced in speakers in a way that was anything like what you heard in the concert hall? I thought not.
In my (frustrated by audio electronics) opinion, there comes a point where you have to strike a compromise between what size speaker system you can fit in your listening space, what your budget will allow, and which of the variously flawed styles of loudspeakers suit your tastes best. In the end, I've never heard a music playback system that didn't sound somehow 'electronic' in one way or another. I've heard plenty of systems I liked a lot, though. I've also heard systems everybody else loved, but left me thinking 'so what?'.
This stuff is so subjective, you could work your entire life putting together the 'perfect system for your tastes' only to turn it on one evening to find that you don't like the way it sounds at all. Then you're wondering what you need to do to bring it up to snuff with your expectations; so you start tweaking this and that. It'll drive you nuts!
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In my (frustrated by audio electronics) opinion, there comes a point where you have to strike a compromise between what size speaker system you can fit in your listening space, what your budget will allow, and which of the variously flawed styles of loudspeakers suit your tastes best. In the end, I've never heard a music playback system that didn't sound somehow 'electronic' in one way or another. I've heard plenty of systems I liked a lot, though. I've also heard systems everybody else loved, but left me thinking 'so what?'.
This stuff is so subjective, you could work your entire life putting together the 'perfect system for your tastes' only to turn it on one evening to find that you don't like the way it sounds at all. Then you're wondering what you need to do to bring it up to snuff with your expectations; so you start tweaking this and that. It'll drive you nuts!
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Some of the responses reminds one of another article...
If you look again, the OP is looking for help with this question:
If you look again, the OP is looking for help with this question:
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Some of the responses reminds one of another article...
If you look again, the OP is looking for help with this question:
No trolling, just fed up of being treated as subnormal low eff minority by high eff elites with super golden banana ears aided by Altec muticell sonotones and deaf imune to any kind of tonal colorations. I am sadly not lucky enough, too picky to wistand your colored (though dymanic, but it's the least part of the deal to me...) gear...Analyse ithis in your next meeting at you next door audio psy, plizzz...D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBY4pKP4oBo&list=RDZLCCnIKQyFI&index=5
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Not off topic, my message is : FORGET ABOUT HI EFF SPEAKERS / SE TRIODE BULLESHIT AMPS FOR CLASSICAL MUSIC...
Young innocent guys manipulated by shabby audio extremist/integrist ideologists might desperately need this kind of advice... For Classical Music, mainstream amps/speakers the very best!
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Close your eyes first.
Yes! But when reproduced, the 'glass' is only 3/4 full, that is no surprise, and 'drinking the beverage' remains a 'joy' rather than a 'disappointment'.
It is a matter of how close you can afford to get -- Time spent and $$$ spent as diminishing returns are approached.
Off course it is a matter of which imperfections bother you the most.
Most, but not all, of these imperfections, are beyond audiophile control. They are related to the recording and transcription process required to deliver the program to your sound reproduction system on an 'on-demand basis'. This is followed by the size of the listening space where the program is reproduced, which is typically acoustically too-small.
WHG
Yes! But when reproduced, the 'glass' is only 3/4 full, that is no surprise, and 'drinking the beverage' remains a 'joy' rather than a 'disappointment'.
It is a matter of how close you can afford to get -- Time spent and $$$ spent as diminishing returns are approached.
Off course it is a matter of which imperfections bother you the most.
Most, but not all, of these imperfections, are beyond audiophile control. They are related to the recording and transcription process required to deliver the program to your sound reproduction system on an 'on-demand basis'. This is followed by the size of the listening space where the program is reproduced, which is typically acoustically too-small.
WHG
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Recording and transcription. I think it's improving the last while. For example, Seattle Opera's live broadcasts the last couple of years have remarkably good sound, which is a very difficult achievement.
Even on line sound these days can sound pretty decent sometimes: On-line classical music videos: Opera, ballet, concert
Regarding room size: Stereo doesn't cut it in small rooms. The acoustic of small room has to be masked by that of a larger space. Even crude experiments with a couple of back channels with appropriate delays and roll offs can demonstrate this.
A psychoacoustic advantage of doing this is that one may play front channels at lower levels thus closer approximating the concert room experience. After all, how great is the direct SPL reaching our ears in the front balcony of a good hall?
20W makes a big difference. Enough that it might be useful to re-start this thread - which is mostly off-topic anyway
Do I understand correctly - if you used a coaxial, you would use the 2A3 for the HF driver, and the 20W amp for the bass driver?
I have done some experimenting along these lines.
15" bass + 2" mid horn + tweeter
vs.
15" bass + 15" coaxial
The weakness of the former was bass to mid integration.
The latter seems easier to blend and more natural on male vocals, possibly because the bass/mid crossover has the same centre-to-centre spacing, but is ~2 octaves lower.
Not familiar, but in theory, the 2" HF driver of the 5215 is overkill. You don't need the high power handling of a 2" driver, and a small driver should have better extension, everything else being equal.
Maybe consider a smaller coaxial, like the Radian 5210 (or anything with a 1" HF driver) + subs. That would be more flexible for placement, good at the frequency extremes, and an easier build than a Brociner corner horn.
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/coaxial-speaker-kits/volt-10lx/v10-volt-lxe-kit.html
Then add your own bass drivers.
Then add your own bass drivers.
I bet most of you don't listen orchestral classical music.... or rarely !
Most of the speakers discussed in this forum and many have too much treble energy and plays ping pong reverb too fastly because our rooms ! Not speaking about most of recording classic albums !
Frankly, too much treble is heared with the modern speakers ! Is it about because the way CDs are mixed ? Time energy is focused on the highs.... listeners focused on the strings crips....pffff ! It's important but that's not all ! (and I think it's more realistic to benchmark a speaker with chamber music or classical solo instruments)
delays are not the same... we should noyt speak about speakers but more of rooms or sound timing DRC....
But being at the place of the director I would like to hear more about the spl grand classic concert in relation to the concert hall and what does a Hifi system in terme of dynamic + room size corelations because of the spl peaks in relation to the genuine event !
All those fools whom talk about operas with their 10" drivers and 5m squared rooms are like deaf mionkeys in cage !
Not it's a problem to me, everybody is free ! Just my point of view ! Sometimes have more pleasure on a bad old mono radio !
Most of the speakers discussed in this forum and many have too much treble energy and plays ping pong reverb too fastly because our rooms ! Not speaking about most of recording classic albums !
Frankly, too much treble is heared with the modern speakers ! Is it about because the way CDs are mixed ? Time energy is focused on the highs.... listeners focused on the strings crips....pffff ! It's important but that's not all ! (and I think it's more realistic to benchmark a speaker with chamber music or classical solo instruments)
delays are not the same... we should noyt speak about speakers but more of rooms or sound timing DRC....
But being at the place of the director I would like to hear more about the spl grand classic concert in relation to the concert hall and what does a Hifi system in terme of dynamic + room size corelations because of the spl peaks in relation to the genuine event !
All those fools whom talk about operas with their 10" drivers and 5m squared rooms are like deaf mionkeys in cage !
Not it's a problem to me, everybody is free ! Just my point of view ! Sometimes have more pleasure on a bad old mono radio !
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You're right about how CDs are mastered: exaggerated highs and rolled off lows, except for most classical albums which generally have rolled off lows starting at ~450 Hz (the turnover point of the old tone controls on preamps and receivers). Classical solo instruments like piano and pipe organ are the worst about this problem. Sometimes this also includes rolled-off HFs. I recommend unmastering your CDs...especially your classical discs.
You're also right, in my experience, about the listening room sizes and the size of the sound reproduction surfaces--including horn mouth areas. These need to be large in order to move the required amounts of air at mid and LFs in order to avoid distortions that sound opaque and "loud", i.e., modulation distortion and compression distortion. That's why horns sound so effortless, due to the small diaphragm motions required for equal loudness to direct radiators (1/5th to 1/7th the peak-to-peak motion).
Larger loudspeaker coverage angles are also required in order to produce realistic sound fields in-room without requiring "head in a vise" conditions and producing "thin" sounding results.
Chris
You're also right, in my experience, about the listening room sizes and the size of the sound reproduction surfaces--including horn mouth areas. These need to be large in order to move the required amounts of air at mid and LFs in order to avoid distortions that sound opaque and "loud", i.e., modulation distortion and compression distortion. That's why horns sound so effortless, due to the small diaphragm motions required for equal loudness to direct radiators (1/5th to 1/7th the peak-to-peak motion).
Larger loudspeaker coverage angles are also required in order to produce realistic sound fields in-room without requiring "head in a vise" conditions and producing "thin" sounding results.
Chris
Not off topic, my message is : FORGET ABOUT HI EFF SPEAKERS / SE TRIODE BULLESHIT AMPS FOR CLASSICAL MUSIC...
Young innocent guys manipulated by shabby audio extremist/integrist ideologists might desperately need this kind of advice... For Classical Music, mainstream amps/speakers the very best!
SE845 paired with alnico Open baffle aka lampizator sounds very special and holographic.
However the sound details are lost in this type of amplification and the 1khz region is extremely bad with huge dips and peaks inherent to the 95db efficient paper cones, in definitive the sound is irritable, impossible to play very loud.
I would never listen to classical music on mainstream stereo systems. they are very bad.
?? You were talking about 20W for the bass: "Hiraga class A 20W for bass under 1000Hz"
With a driver such as the Radian 5210:
2A3 - 1" HF driver >1,500Hz
Hiraga 20W --> 10" LF driver, about 60-1,500Hz
...95dB & 20W sets ~108dB as your maximum, which is pretty good, IMO*. The 604 would get 110dB maximum. Scaling up to a Danley SH50 would give 113dB maximum. Diminishing returns.
I recently tried similarly low power with my system, using a miniDSP as a lowpass (to 2*15"), and passive crossover on the coaxial (1" and 15"):
Trends Audio TA-10 - about 10W
NAD 3020 - about 20W
I was cheerfully playing electronic and industrial music** at what to me is the loudest SPL I'd ever want in a domestic setting.
*Caveats: I don't listen to classical and I consider 90dB to be loud.
**such as this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Saul_Kane
...and this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetcleaner
I totally agree with Eldam, harmonics of instruments do not exceed 15kHz, and piano/big chord need under 30Hz.
That is why hollowboy solution could be a good one. What do you think :
604 in closed box with DSP active filter <100Hz (passive or active between 15 and HF)
One BR subwoofer with a fast efficient 18'.
A great point source speaker with bass extension ??
That is why hollowboy solution could be a good one. What do you think :
604 in closed box with DSP active filter <100Hz (passive or active between 15 and HF)
One BR subwoofer with a fast efficient 18'.
A great point source speaker with bass extension ??
My personal experiences of the genuine events are obviously not at the place of the director and i have absolutely no interest to discover such an atypical one. My favorite places are in the middle of the auditorium and farther, and hopefully in the center, avoiding too much left or right. I don't find SPL terrible in these conditions, hall sound dominates with little details and most of the time imaging is also poor. The PA of a Beyonce tour shouts much louder...
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