What high efficiency speaker for Classical Music ?

[jbercovici]

Hello
Hard to choose when listening is not always possible [emoji16]
I have a very high quality 2A3 direct coupled amp, and want to build a corner speaker.
This to listen to Classical music (symphonic, baroque, opéra, piano and concertos....).
I am thinking about :
Altec 604 GPA
GRF type Tannoy (maybe a bit short in efficiency)
Klipschorn
TP1 London with Lowther or Alnico 215-2000 Supravox.
Some of you could share their experience with this kind of configuration and for Classical musical taste ? (Timbre, extinction, subtility, dynamics, etc....)

Just a remark : on YouTube, demos of Altec 604 are only with jazz or pop music, Tannoy mostly with classical : is that a sign ??

Julien

 

[GDO]

For classical beware of high efficiency barking dogs...

Sakuma's old 78rpm jazz collection is quite another stuff...

For classical, the more analytical, dry and neutral uncolored aseptical sounding, the very best. Low efficiency usually excel in these respects, while high eff, well, quite the other way...

 

[Richidoo]

If the amp is the highest priority then
maybe JBL 4367?

If music comes first, then get a 4 or 5 way, low distortion speaker with large woofers and big amplifier, in a big room.

Building a DIY system that can play symphonies to their fullest potential is a difficult, lonely and expensive journey. It is the pinnacle of the sport, imo.

 

[GDO]

If the amp is the highest priority then
maybe JBL 4367?

If music comes first, then get a 4 or 5 way, low distortion speaker with large woofers and big amplifier, in a big room.

Building a DIY system that can play symphonies to their fullest potential is a difficult, lonely and expensive journey. It is the pinnacle of the sport, imo.

Yeah man, JBL sounds like a true universal anthem and Ode to Joy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM9erS90gTE

Obviously, fidelity to whatever chimera is totally anecdoctical to what music reproducion is all about.

 

[POOH]

With a 2A3 amp look for full range horns down to 80 cycles or so. You'll find a 3-way covers the range best. Make sure your amp is dead quiet because a good horn system is 105db or more sensitive at a meter and will give all the low level subtleties, timber and dynamics (and hummmmm) lesser speakers mask. Be prepared to spend some time getting it right because most horn systems and advice is bad and also be prepared to be in pure musical bliss once you latch on to the proper array system.

 

[koja]

already answered: just follow links:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/290772-speakers-classical-music-tubelab-sse-firstwatt-f5-10.html#post4711607

 

[POOH]

already answered: just follow links:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-tubelab-sse-firstwatt-f5-10.html#post4711607

If you you are referring to the beyond the ariel thread that is one great place to send somebody to be confused. For one it was never completed after many years of no decisions/debate/fluff talk ect.., (the one speaker I see built is a real compromise especially with 2a3/45 amp) two it was a speaker that was supposed to be used with a much larger amp than a 2A3 amp, three OP wants a corner loaded speaker - a corner horn up to 300 Hz should be fine with 3 watts - Lots of bad advice out there when it comes to horns

 

[Cask05]

I recommend a multiple entry horn of the K-402 profile in a corner configuration. The reason is the integration of the sound of each loudspeaker into a point source down to 40 Hz or below, with controlled 90 x 60 degree polars down to 175 Hz. The sound eclipses even the Klipsch Jubilee, especially in the midbass region.

Chris

 

[LineSource]

Korners Love Klipsch

For corner placement high efficiency, there are positive reviews for the klipsch K-402 Horn with the BMS 4592ND driver, on top of the Jamboree(dual 15" woofers) corner bass horn. Because the BMS 4592ND is a coaxial compression driver, a crossover of 450Hz to the Jamboree corner woofers is said to have a natural sounding transition. Construction plans available for Jubilee and Jamboree corner bass horns. Should deliver 98-100db/watt driven by 2A3.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/159700-jamboree-build-thread/


https://community.klipsch.com/index....ubilee-design/

 

[Bare]

Hello

Just a remark : on YouTube, demos of Altec 604 are only with jazz or pop music, Tannoy mostly with classical : is that a sign ??

Julien

Youtube is likely The worst place to audition anything Audio.
The Tannoys will Not dissapoint neither would GPA 604's .. eventually.
Lowthers and Klipsch ? Not easily.. as simple answer.

 

[jbercovici]

Thanks for your advices !
K402 is interesting, but a bit too big for me.
Listening point will be at 10', maybe coaxial or full range shall be better. Listening room 12'*15'*10' height.
For GPA 604, a good choice I saw :
- Brociner Jensen corner Horn
- Altec 606

In a general way, how could the Altec sound be described compared to Tannoy or Klipsch ?

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[Cask05]

Altecs are typically very "midrangey" in their sonic signature, and exhibit much higher bass distortion (modulation and reflex port-related phase/group delay distortion) in general compared to Klipschorn or other horn-loaded bass.

Tannoys typically present the typical issues of direct radiating reflex-loaded drivers in terms of sound signature, but have point source cohesiveness. I find that they "run out of gas" on dynamic transients unlike the Klipschorn, Jubilee, or K-402 multiple entry horn.

The K-402 multiple entry horn (a single horn that is smaller than all the choices that you show above) is neutral, cohesive, and produces a huge soundstage. It exhibits the bass reproduction cleanness and phase/group delay behavior as the Klipschorn but without the issues of midrange-bass time misalignment and dual-mouth bass bin diffraction/polar coverage in the midbass region above 200 Hz. The K-402 multiple entry horn also avoids the issues of direct radiator distortion. Controlled coverage is 90 degrees horizontal by 60 vertical down to 175 Hz (i.e., much better than all other choices shown above).

 

[Eldam]

I will read this french inputt from Rinaldo Bassi from La revue du Son first Puissance minimale de l'ampli

But GPA I will avoid all second hands genuine Altec Alnico driver with cone which can not be reloaded more than few weeks (the magnett !)

Klipschorn could do the job, but maybe with a 20W Class A à la Hiraga for the low end : so bi amp (look at the link above)

We are in France where some brand are hard to source but also I will add on the list :

Yorkville U15 passive for its low price
Danley Soundlab SN-50 : because the listening room too (you certainly need here Something a little directional to avoid the most possible the reflected sounds)

Something to consider also is the quality of the source : many frenchs have crappy digital source in relation to expensive tube/horn system they have, I believe it's cultural...

just my opinion and 2 cents !

GPA are problematic to source today from France as some pointed out, but a design to consider if you can source a GPA 604 and want easy DIY : http://www.4umusic.com/questions-reponses/l-enceinte-nissotte

 

[Eldam]

I forgotten this brand of speaker which is local but have you considered a 12" from EMS speaker : http://www.emspeaker.com/fiche_LB12EX.pdf + a 40 cm for the bass !

Sounds good for acoustical music. But the T/S paramater dictate the design : quarter wave enclosure (which Fertin approves best for this driver if I remember)! Some made a mini Onken with it, some others an Open Bafle while it seems to be a bad idea because the low Xmax !

In an other way, still in the DIY, I should like to see what someone could do with a Supravox or an EMS Speaker driver in an Voice of the Theater replica !

 

[WithTarragon]

Korners Love Klipsch

For corner placement high efficiency, there are positive reviews for the klipsch K-402 Horn with the BMS 4592ND driver, on top of the Jamboree(dual 15" woofers) corner bass horn. Because the BMS 4592ND is a coaxial compression driver, a crossover of 450Hz to the Jamboree corner woofers is said to have a natural sounding transition. Construction plans available for Jubilee and Jamboree corner bass horns. Should deliver 98-100db/watt driven by 2A3.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/159700-jamboree-build-thread/


https://community.klipsch.com/index....ubilee-design/

To the potential builder: There are many mistakes in the above post. If you think you might go in this direction, please go to the Klipsch site and do some research first.

 

[billshurv]

To the potential builder: There are many mistakes in the above post. If you think you might go in this direction, please go to the Klipsch site and do some research first.

Like? Or are you playing Brockian ultra-cricket?

 

[WithTarragon]

Like? Or are you playing Brockian ultra-cricket?

I am not very smart so I don't understand your reference.

In answer to your question, the biggest problem, and there are others, is the schematic shown. The bottom half is labelled as a Jamboree with a pair of 15" drivers. That is not a Jamboree, not even close (first clue is that the drivers are facing the wrong way and the folding is entirely different). Again, if a builder is interested in following along these lines they will need to do some research over at the Klipsch site.

In reference to the OP's original question, he might want to listen to some Klipschorns to see if he likes the sound of them. They can serve as a reference point since there are plenty of them around. Although the Jubilee will sound better, they share the same relative strengths and weaknesses as the Klipschorn.

 

[koja]

@Pooh
in re: to the "Beyond the Ariel": it IS a long and confusing thread; it took them forever but they DID complete a few versions of the speaker and the first one was made by Gary Dahl who is professionally into classical music. so i linked his comments.

if a kit for a corner type horn is a goal though there are other venues:
Pi Speaker Kits, seven Pi kit

disclaimer: I am personally not into horns. of DIY kits I only listened to Geddess's Abbeys.

 

[Pano]

As Bare says, it's not a simple or easy answer. All will be compromises. A 2A3 has just enough power to run a 604 or similar coax in a small to medium room for large classical. The problem with classical is that is has such a large dynamic range. Good recordings have an average to peak ratio of 22dB or more. That means you can need 160X to 250x more power on the peaks than on the average levels.
Pop music is far less dynamic.

If you want to get close to a realistic sound on orchestral music, you need to go big. Big speakers, no matter what the drivers. Small speakers will always sound small on orchestral music.

Don't worry about Altec being called "mid-rangey", if you have a proper crossover it is not at all. Tannoy is no different. Also the notion that low efficiency is somehow lower distortion is also false. Don't believe it.

I have heard SET amps with 45 and 2A3 output tubes do extremely well on small combo jazz and vocals when driving big, high efficiency speakers. Large scale classical is more difficult.

 

[Eldam]

... yes I plusOne ! I even think despite loving rock music also than 50% of the speakers are good enough for that!

It's also when you listen Classical at lower average volume to have electronics and speakers which can fill the dynamic gap (the travel between the lower and higher spl)which is often a very short time window : Powersupply must not colapse and the driver must have a good electrical damping too ! Technically I'm not sure (but I don't know?!) a 2A3 is enough in dynamic (but subjective) to feed Something else than a mid and a treble.... I'm sure some would say : for the treble only if the speaker have a passive crossover !

Dit moi mon Pano, is it possible according to you to scale down a VOTT A5/A7 with a 12" on a smaller cabinet but with the same ratios ? (to avoid the bigger Onken while having the snap of the Votts ?)