the fact is people say they are happy with the results am I right? If I make the project with premium brand modules then the project is not going to be financially viable and people won't pay the price tag.
are they notoriously bad? or is this just preference for top shelf hardware, that the general public can't really afford?
I would like to go straight in with what you're saying, but the use I'm putting this to will massively improve the product it's being made for which has shocking factory sound.
And essentially I just wondered if this was allowed? To build and sell products using existing boards, modules and small products instead of your own PCB which I won't have the resources yet to do.
are they notoriously bad? or is this just preference for top shelf hardware, that the general public can't really afford?
I would like to go straight in with what you're saying, but the use I'm putting this to will massively improve the product it's being made for which has shocking factory sound.
And essentially I just wondered if this was allowed? To build and sell products using existing boards, modules and small products instead of your own PCB which I won't have the resources yet to do.
if I sell something under my name, I need to know that there are no fake or dodgy parts. if its built in china, all bets are off (sorry but just been burned too many times on china-sourced parts). I buy parts from places I know won't use fakes, such as mouser, digikey, etc. that's rule #1 for selling stuff under your own name.
rule 2 is to use a design that has been peer reviewed and debugged. again, china fails on that and china often won't even give away their schematics and chips sometimes have their numbers scratched off. not on this series of dacs, but in general, I would never tolerate that under my own name.
do you care if the thing runs for a week or a month or a year; or do you expect your products run life to be measured in units of 5 or 10 yrs?
what works for china manufacturing is if you micromanage the production line, supply all your own parts (and ensure that what you give is what they build with) and you basically have to have some one there to supervise. that's how you get quality out of china; you have to be directly involved and big companies do this. small guys like you and I could not and so I would not consider china-sourced boards for resale or embedding in my finished systems.
I will use china stuff to study and prototype with. I might even use it myself; but if it breaks down, I won't yell and complain to myself, I'll fix it or throw it away. I would not want to have to fix something from a customer that broke due to a china-build issue or parts issue that was not under my control.
that said, not everyone has this level of dedication and maybe for your customers and your products, its 'ok' to be sourced from ebay style boards. that's up to you to decide.
rule 2 is to use a design that has been peer reviewed and debugged. again, china fails on that and china often won't even give away their schematics and chips sometimes have their numbers scratched off. not on this series of dacs, but in general, I would never tolerate that under my own name.
do you care if the thing runs for a week or a month or a year; or do you expect your products run life to be measured in units of 5 or 10 yrs?
what works for china manufacturing is if you micromanage the production line, supply all your own parts (and ensure that what you give is what they build with) and you basically have to have some one there to supervise. that's how you get quality out of china; you have to be directly involved and big companies do this. small guys like you and I could not and so I would not consider china-sourced boards for resale or embedding in my finished systems.
I will use china stuff to study and prototype with. I might even use it myself; but if it breaks down, I won't yell and complain to myself, I'll fix it or throw it away. I would not want to have to fix something from a customer that broke due to a china-build issue or parts issue that was not under my control.
that said, not everyone has this level of dedication and maybe for your customers and your products, its 'ok' to be sourced from ebay style boards. that's up to you to decide.
Okay
I really appreciate your input.
Can I then ask. If you needed to source a valve buffer amp, and a USB (only USB is required) DAC for use in a product aimed at computer/audio enthusiasts, and you had to try and keep the price as affordable as is reasonable. Where would you source those units and which would you use?
The reason I was aiming for the DAC 6 is that it is USB, uses a WM8741, and comes at a good price. These are the only reasons.
I really want to go ahead with this, I do NOT want to ship crap, but I do want to succeed as far as people actually willing to back it.
Thanks again.
I really appreciate your input.
Can I then ask. If you needed to source a valve buffer amp, and a USB (only USB is required) DAC for use in a product aimed at computer/audio enthusiasts, and you had to try and keep the price as affordable as is reasonable. Where would you source those units and which would you use?
The reason I was aiming for the DAC 6 is that it is USB, uses a WM8741, and comes at a good price. These are the only reasons.
I really want to go ahead with this, I do NOT want to ship crap, but I do want to succeed as far as people actually willing to back it.
Thanks again.
I do see after reading some more, exactly what you mean.
Twisted pair DACs obviously look far better it's just keeping it affordable. Maybe there is a trade-off point of bang for buck sound quality with build quality and customer support. That is essentially what I need to achieve.
Twisted pair DACs obviously look far better it's just keeping it affordable. Maybe there is a trade-off point of bang for buck sound quality with build quality and customer support. That is essentially what I need to achieve.
@aulday - it sounds like you are defining a project as a product. Both are valid, but clarity of presentation and proper attribution is key. Years ago I manufactured and sold a specialized case for a well known computer, the Amiga 2000. My product was the chassis and was marketed as such with a unique name. It's function did not allow me to take credit for (or ignore) the development and production work done by Commodore.
One can not receive a patent by changing the size or shape of a file cabinet. Developing a unique lock or drawer slide system for a file cabinet would qualify.
What specifically are you defining as your "product"?
One can not receive a patent by changing the size or shape of a file cabinet. Developing a unique lock or drawer slide system for a file cabinet would qualify.
What specifically are you defining as your "product"?
Hi Bob
Thanks for that. I am not bothered about patenting this. The project I suppose, is to create a product using a pre-made DAC board, and a pre-made Tube Buffer board, with respective power transformers. Then design and make a housing for it and then attempt to get it crowd funded using something like Kickstarter. Anything I create for the product will be open source. Mainly the connections and the housing in this case. I've done schematics and PCB design before but this was 10 years ago at uni and even then I only did it during that time. So this is why I'm after pre-made modules to get the job done.
I would estimate to make an initial batch of around 50 or so units if the cash target was met.
That's interesting to know re the Amiga. I was a firm Amiga fan in my childhood. Mainly 500's and 1200's with Techno Sound Turbo 2 and Octamed 🙂 well good for it's time.
Thanks for that. I am not bothered about patenting this. The project I suppose, is to create a product using a pre-made DAC board, and a pre-made Tube Buffer board, with respective power transformers. Then design and make a housing for it and then attempt to get it crowd funded using something like Kickstarter. Anything I create for the product will be open source. Mainly the connections and the housing in this case. I've done schematics and PCB design before but this was 10 years ago at uni and even then I only did it during that time. So this is why I'm after pre-made modules to get the job done.
I would estimate to make an initial batch of around 50 or so units if the cash target was met.
That's interesting to know re the Amiga. I was a firm Amiga fan in my childhood. Mainly 500's and 1200's with Techno Sound Turbo 2 and Octamed 🙂 well good for it's time.
Of course if it was a success I could hire in design engineers to make custom electronics.
Although it is not the same product idea, this is the closest principle to what I'm talking about. It was a successful Kickstart project: Tubecore Audio | Introducing the DUO
Although it is not the same product idea, this is the closest principle to what I'm talking about. It was a successful Kickstart project: Tubecore Audio | Introducing the DUO
Sounds like viable plan to me and I would encourage your efforts. However, I would point out two elements:
1. The name of the general product reflects a development core as displayed by the silk screen on the boards.
2. Large companies can survive cutting corners on parts quality with volume sales and big advertising budgets. Us little guys must rely more on "best practices" to establish credibility, particularly at start-up. A high quality product will attract customers/users at any price point.
Good luck, sounds like fun.
1. The name of the general product reflects a development core as displayed by the silk screen on the boards.
2. Large companies can survive cutting corners on parts quality with volume sales and big advertising budgets. Us little guys must rely more on "best practices" to establish credibility, particularly at start-up. A high quality product will attract customers/users at any price point.
Good luck, sounds like fun.
Hi Bob
Thanks for that input. Could you re-iterate your first point? Wasn't quite sure what it meant.
Cheers!
Tom
Thanks for that input. Could you re-iterate your first point? Wasn't quite sure what it meant.
Cheers!
Tom
My best scenario would be for you to take the time to improve your own design skills as mentioned above, and develop something from scratch - your own boards or something possibly in collaboration with someone with a bit more advanced experience. For my computer chassis I got help from a PCB guru for the aux PS mods, a sheet metal expert and a shipping carton specialist - among others. It was my original basic idea, but the efforts and knowledge of others was key in making it something real.
Using a sub-contractor or properly licensing a version of an established design/product could enhance the authenticity of what you offer. Again, the rhetorical question - "What makes my product unique?".
I obviously don't know all that you have in mind, and am aware one can not create every component. Just encouraging you to do all you can to present what you create as a well thought out original item, and not simply a collection of related things. If the drawing card for your project is primarily convenience and/or consolidation, that's fine and people will pay for that - as long as it's marketing/presentation is straight forward and non-deceptive.
Using a sub-contractor or properly licensing a version of an established design/product could enhance the authenticity of what you offer. Again, the rhetorical question - "What makes my product unique?".
I obviously don't know all that you have in mind, and am aware one can not create every component. Just encouraging you to do all you can to present what you create as a well thought out original item, and not simply a collection of related things. If the drawing card for your project is primarily convenience and/or consolidation, that's fine and people will pay for that - as long as it's marketing/presentation is straight forward and non-deceptive.
Hi Bob
I started my own website specifically for finding fellow experts to collaborate on such projects. It is in it's early days so alas I don't have a lot of great contacts for this sort of project yet. I'll take this opportunity to plug it actually: TechyHeadz
I'm trying to think along the lines of a lone maker at the moment trying to make more contacts for working with. I feel if I can start off with a first product using reputable modules then I will try and run with that first. I've always had a ground up approach but have learned that sometimes it's too much to handle at once, at least initially.
I started my own website specifically for finding fellow experts to collaborate on such projects. It is in it's early days so alas I don't have a lot of great contacts for this sort of project yet. I'll take this opportunity to plug it actually: TechyHeadz
I'm trying to think along the lines of a lone maker at the moment trying to make more contacts for working with. I feel if I can start off with a first product using reputable modules then I will try and run with that first. I've always had a ground up approach but have learned that sometimes it's too much to handle at once, at least initially.
The site looks great and is certainly comprehensive. You and the site should do well. Will be checking in frequently.
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That's kind, thanks Bob.
It's only a couple of months in. Am planning to aim at the global maker movement and academic institutes. Will be great when the expert bank begins to increase.
There is a local maker lab starting up here soon so I may well come across new seasoned guys within that community to help regarding the points you made.
Take care and thanks again.
It's only a couple of months in. Am planning to aim at the global maker movement and academic institutes. Will be great when the expert bank begins to increase.
There is a local maker lab starting up here soon so I may well come across new seasoned guys within that community to help regarding the points you made.
Take care and thanks again.
An interesting diversion...
I would be concerned about what happens to your product after the sourced components suddenly dry up and are no longer available.
I just discovered that the TE7022 usb board for the dac5 is no longer available.
I would be concerned about what happens to your product after the sourced components suddenly dry up and are no longer available.
I just discovered that the TE7022 usb board for the dac5 is no longer available.
Hello,
Does anyone know if its possible to bypass the DC Servo of the Weiliang DAC 5? It looks like the perfect match for my new Cavalli-Kan-Kumisa III Headphone AMP, but since it has a DC Servo of its own I´d like to bypass it.
Thanks
Does anyone know if its possible to bypass the DC Servo of the Weiliang DAC 5? It looks like the perfect match for my new Cavalli-Kan-Kumisa III Headphone AMP, but since it has a DC Servo of its own I´d like to bypass it.
Thanks
Aulday, the market is saturated to such point that consumers don't even know what is out there. Using someone else's boards in your product without expressed permission is a problem. Taking a common Chinese DAC and slapping a fashionably large power supply and pretty case around it is all too common today. That is the thing: commerce via the enternet led to many new brands that were founded on the backs of under-engineered designs using overpriced audiophool components. Almost half of the brands I hear audiophile brag about produce laughably inadaquate designs. They hide behind embarrassing measured performance specs and glossy paid reviews- every reviewer gets paid for his review. Stereophile charges $15,ooo for a two page "article", if it could be called such a thing.
Good designed gear is completely unique and original, peer tested by professionals and it can be backed by third party testing. As much as I detest having to write this, it is the sad truth. There are two many people producing gear of whom can't sufficiently measure or counterdesign the inherent problems with their rotten produce. Designing audio gear in the basement is completely different than a large budget manufacturer with dedicated testing facilities who adheres to ISO standards. The opposite group usually ends up selling without UL listing of CSA testing, buys false dry transfers to sneak it into distribution. And yet that same gear gets a big thivk chassis with engraving and expensive connectors, and is rubbed in peoples faces, or worse, the creators omniscent egos later get their own forum section.
Some people want their own brand for fortune or fame. The vast majority don't have the expetience or expertise to properly design and as a result the finished product does sound different from the competition, but for all the wrong reasons. DIY gear cannot match that from large corporations. A guy in his basement with a Weller solder station and usb scope if far from having that capability of a well funded research center. What leaves these kickstarter basement operations amounts only to stealing from wishful buyers who don't know better, and many of these little companies barely survive past their initial product.
Ask yourself this all-important question: "Would I feel comfortable spending my hard earned money on a piece of gear that has very little testing, if any, that was created without peer review of the circuit layout, brandishes the creator's name for all to see, who spent more money on the casework and transformer for his now-marketed DIY project than the actual circuit topology research? Or, would I rather buy from a company with a team of designers who do not flash their names around and instead devote their energy on making the circuit and layout all it can be with hundreds of thousands of dollars in resources and calibrated measurement equipment?"
Good designed gear is completely unique and original, peer tested by professionals and it can be backed by third party testing. As much as I detest having to write this, it is the sad truth. There are two many people producing gear of whom can't sufficiently measure or counterdesign the inherent problems with their rotten produce. Designing audio gear in the basement is completely different than a large budget manufacturer with dedicated testing facilities who adheres to ISO standards. The opposite group usually ends up selling without UL listing of CSA testing, buys false dry transfers to sneak it into distribution. And yet that same gear gets a big thivk chassis with engraving and expensive connectors, and is rubbed in peoples faces, or worse, the creators omniscent egos later get their own forum section.
Some people want their own brand for fortune or fame. The vast majority don't have the expetience or expertise to properly design and as a result the finished product does sound different from the competition, but for all the wrong reasons. DIY gear cannot match that from large corporations. A guy in his basement with a Weller solder station and usb scope if far from having that capability of a well funded research center. What leaves these kickstarter basement operations amounts only to stealing from wishful buyers who don't know better, and many of these little companies barely survive past their initial product.
Ask yourself this all-important question: "Would I feel comfortable spending my hard earned money on a piece of gear that has very little testing, if any, that was created without peer review of the circuit layout, brandishes the creator's name for all to see, who spent more money on the casework and transformer for his now-marketed DIY project than the actual circuit topology research? Or, would I rather buy from a company with a team of designers who do not flash their names around and instead devote their energy on making the circuit and layout all it can be with hundreds of thousands of dollars in resources and calibrated measurement equipment?"
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I do appreciate your input. I guess I find this happens in every passionate field of interest. The veterans are often nay saying, cynical or pedantic. For completely just reasons. But it is a bit of a headache.
For example the thing I have in mind although it has a dac and a tube pre-amp is actually unique in it's application. Also being born from DIY the price tag is lower and there for more affordable (although I do now intend to avoid Chinese pre-made boards).
If you're not blatantly lying through your teeth and selling people sh*t then there will be a place for your work. Be it a lower price, or conversely a higher quality design, or what ever.
What I think you're saying is unless you're the best company with the best facilities and resources available, then don't bother because it'll be too sh*t and not as good as best standard. Problem with this is that's how manufacturing has always worked. But now it is being democratised and yes anyone can make stuff. It might not be the best of the best, but it certainly won't be the worst by a long shot. It'll still be better than the shittest hifi you can buy from a catalog, and yes it will. I know the superiority trip is to be the purist and best of all, esp in a forum like this. But that's not all there is. You can still enjoy skiing without being an Olympic skier. In fact most people are not Olympic skiers but it's a great enjoyable sport.
A lot of people want artisan products for the very reason of them being hand made small batches.
I will likely find good reputable parts to use as recommended by members here, build it at the local fabrication lab in town, with advice from peer engineers. and crowd fund it. It's either that approach, or "go back to yer runnings and leave it to the big business".
I am being totally friendly here but really is the glass half empty or half full. You gotta start somewhere.
For example the thing I have in mind although it has a dac and a tube pre-amp is actually unique in it's application. Also being born from DIY the price tag is lower and there for more affordable (although I do now intend to avoid Chinese pre-made boards).
If you're not blatantly lying through your teeth and selling people sh*t then there will be a place for your work. Be it a lower price, or conversely a higher quality design, or what ever.
What I think you're saying is unless you're the best company with the best facilities and resources available, then don't bother because it'll be too sh*t and not as good as best standard. Problem with this is that's how manufacturing has always worked. But now it is being democratised and yes anyone can make stuff. It might not be the best of the best, but it certainly won't be the worst by a long shot. It'll still be better than the shittest hifi you can buy from a catalog, and yes it will. I know the superiority trip is to be the purist and best of all, esp in a forum like this. But that's not all there is. You can still enjoy skiing without being an Olympic skier. In fact most people are not Olympic skiers but it's a great enjoyable sport.
A lot of people want artisan products for the very reason of them being hand made small batches.
I will likely find good reputable parts to use as recommended by members here, build it at the local fabrication lab in town, with advice from peer engineers. and crowd fund it. It's either that approach, or "go back to yer runnings and leave it to the big business".
I am being totally friendly here but really is the glass half empty or half full. You gotta start somewhere.
refuzoid, I recall that this may describe what you're trying to do;
Valvole & Audio: DAC5 WM8741 V1.9 (Weiliang)
I had a coworker listen to my setup, and suggest that I sell them, the first thought I had was that it's not mine to sell. To actually make it possible I would have to at least make my own circuit boards. Then the question would be what design to use, and nearly everything has been done before, so it would infringe upon someone else's design at some level. But at least it would have been manufactured by me.
Circuit boards aren't that hard to make...
Valvole & Audio: DAC5 WM8741 V1.9 (Weiliang)
I had a coworker listen to my setup, and suggest that I sell them, the first thought I had was that it's not mine to sell. To actually make it possible I would have to at least make my own circuit boards. Then the question would be what design to use, and nearly everything has been done before, so it would infringe upon someone else's design at some level. But at least it would have been manufactured by me.
Circuit boards aren't that hard to make...
Is this really how it works? For example I'm using a bluetooth module for another project/product. It's a very small board containing a 32-bit MCU with a bluetooth stack and serial interface to allow MCUs to talk USART over bluetooth.
We will be using the module in our product and they know this, we are not going to create our own modules and program our own stacks. It is just being used as part of a bigger circuit.
The factory selling them makes them for this purpose. Tiny modules on boards for use as the comms part in bigger circuit designs.
If I had to design my own bluetooth module, then why don't I have to design my own resistors, and design my own microcontrollers? Were do you draw the line? What is a component, and what is a fully finished product?
Aren't these DAC boards sold as bare boards to be used in other products? Maybe I wrongly assumed this but they don't even have a housing.
I was under the impression that selling circuit boards are deemed as module components, and not "consumer goods". Maybe I got the wrong end of that.
As to your post, are there no open source designs you can base yours on which means no rules and its a free for all? The quickest method for innovation.
We will be using the module in our product and they know this, we are not going to create our own modules and program our own stacks. It is just being used as part of a bigger circuit.
The factory selling them makes them for this purpose. Tiny modules on boards for use as the comms part in bigger circuit designs.
If I had to design my own bluetooth module, then why don't I have to design my own resistors, and design my own microcontrollers? Were do you draw the line? What is a component, and what is a fully finished product?
Aren't these DAC boards sold as bare boards to be used in other products? Maybe I wrongly assumed this but they don't even have a housing.
I was under the impression that selling circuit boards are deemed as module components, and not "consumer goods". Maybe I got the wrong end of that.
As to your post, are there no open source designs you can base yours on which means no rules and its a free for all? The quickest method for innovation.
Using a brands resistors, capacitors, semiconductors, and transformers, etc as compared to using another creators actual DAC board, is quite a difference. These are two different scenarios, and parts companies make their components to be used by everyone. They want to sell, that is how they stay in business, but they do not want people reverse abomineering their engineering work. If you contact the creator of a DAC board and he endorses your use of them in your product under your own brand name, that is fine. The thing is that you must ask for his permission and he must expressively confirm his consent, you may even want a legal contract since you are dealing with a faceless entity in China. Without asking for his permission, it would be like Mark Levinson, Arcam or myself producing (or buying) boards of Pass Lab's X250 and selling them as my own item. That is not a good thing.
I recently posted a schematic of my own for a thermionic valve preamp and then modified the design further. I was able to get some pretty impressive performance from the projected CAD simulations that I know can hold up in practice. I pulled it down from the web, and do you know why? Because a few years ago I posted schematics for a speaker design elsewhere without watermarking the images and the next thing I knew, a company overseas was selling my design and got a flashy review. I received not a word of mention, nor any royalties for my own sweat and blood. How would that make you feel if you had designed this DAC and a third party literally stole it, placed a glossy finish on it, and began making money as a result? How would you feel if you bought a Goldmund DAC and it has a $50 Chinese board inside that was incompetently designed by another faceless entity that didn't have a firm grasp on proper logic design and filtering?
I am not implying that will not market a good product. I just want to mention these two scenarios as they are worth some deep thinking. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but you don't want to steal someone else's design, be it a good or bad design, nor do you want a pig in a blanket.
I recently posted a schematic of my own for a thermionic valve preamp and then modified the design further. I was able to get some pretty impressive performance from the projected CAD simulations that I know can hold up in practice. I pulled it down from the web, and do you know why? Because a few years ago I posted schematics for a speaker design elsewhere without watermarking the images and the next thing I knew, a company overseas was selling my design and got a flashy review. I received not a word of mention, nor any royalties for my own sweat and blood. How would that make you feel if you had designed this DAC and a third party literally stole it, placed a glossy finish on it, and began making money as a result? How would you feel if you bought a Goldmund DAC and it has a $50 Chinese board inside that was incompetently designed by another faceless entity that didn't have a firm grasp on proper logic design and filtering?
I am not implying that will not market a good product. I just want to mention these two scenarios as they are worth some deep thinking. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but you don't want to steal someone else's design, be it a good or bad design, nor do you want a pig in a blanket.
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