One of my main issues, as mentioned near the beginning of this thread, is how it seems to me that vegans have a far too simplistic view of the morals issues. I've found that they are, on the whole, unwilling to engage in discussions regarding their moral stance and fall back on the same mantra. Some are very serious and understand what I and many other consider one of the main issues, that of numbers (it being largely a numbers game) and refrain from reproducing.
Yes, but if they really care about animals that's a huge improvement and a good enough start towards a collective consciousness. It's nearer from thinking about a common worldwide biotop than vegies or jainism for example which are mre focused on the individual, be it for health, spirituality, or cultural atavism.
If it's not naive for the more serious vegans then there is certainly a beginning towards something more global which is not only anthropocentrism.
From my point of view this is a philosophical and ethical progress whatever vegans see it perhaps just as a moral progress. If the concept was known before Plato it was not applied in todays life,
Can't support anymore collapsing of species for individual cunsumption needs that are not vitals and global warming like population increase show than biotop needs a global thinking, less water and less vegetables for animal protein farming but for vegetable prorein for humans which are less asking than cows. If we also take care of human integrity as well, it will be even greater than the limited vegan point of view.
If you ask me veganism is a good concrete beginning, a spark towards something which calls to be improved. Why this is hard ? It's harder to apply with population increases and ask to redefine our entertaiment cunsumers needs and productivist economy model as thinking upon our own time of life as individual.
Needs we reprogramate our own software. We must do it for our own safe and this where it is still in our old software heritage, surbey is the thing.,,so certainly possible. If it stays for individual interests, few people will bring others in a global collapsing for future generation. The only way I see it is from a global cunsumers point of view versus old industries interests which are not vital.
New needs could also provide monney for the system for the 5% of richest whom not want to drop their cake. It's not anymore about just giving more taxs, it's really now about of biotop rescue.
I'm maybe naive but i think more and more to it as what i prefer the most, my carr and T bones and plane travels or children future. Seems many prefers their steak or Porsche than their own children, giving them a debt that can be paid back.
At least IMHO, Bill if you read me, pay less taxes and ask your friends to invest in food chain and global cooling e onomy...mosquitos could wait, female education in not modern countries can't if it's about saving lives. But thank you for Word and Excel of course
If it's not naive for the more serious vegans then there is certainly a beginning towards something more global which is not only anthropocentrism.
From my point of view this is a philosophical and ethical progress whatever vegans see it perhaps just as a moral progress. If the concept was known before Plato it was not applied in todays life,
Can't support anymore collapsing of species for individual cunsumption needs that are not vitals and global warming like population increase show than biotop needs a global thinking, less water and less vegetables for animal protein farming but for vegetable prorein for humans which are less asking than cows. If we also take care of human integrity as well, it will be even greater than the limited vegan point of view.
If you ask me veganism is a good concrete beginning, a spark towards something which calls to be improved. Why this is hard ? It's harder to apply with population increases and ask to redefine our entertaiment cunsumers needs and productivist economy model as thinking upon our own time of life as individual.
Needs we reprogramate our own software. We must do it for our own safe and this where it is still in our old software heritage, surbey is the thing.,,so certainly possible. If it stays for individual interests, few people will bring others in a global collapsing for future generation. The only way I see it is from a global cunsumers point of view versus old industries interests which are not vital.
New needs could also provide monney for the system for the 5% of richest whom not want to drop their cake. It's not anymore about just giving more taxs, it's really now about of biotop rescue.
I'm maybe naive but i think more and more to it as what i prefer the most, my carr and T bones and plane travels or children future. Seems many prefers their steak or Porsche than their own children, giving them a debt that can be paid back.
At least IMHO, Bill if you read me, pay less taxes and ask your friends to invest in food chain and global cooling e onomy...mosquitos could wait, female education in not modern countries can't if it's about saving lives. But thank you for Word and Excel of course
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Use of animal products does not require cruelty to animals. Growing food actually might. What should I do about the rabbits that destroy my garden? Even the deer do less damage, although they do love my decorative tulips.
As an interesting aside, if a significant portion of London's population followed a vegan diet, the city would be almost uninhabitable without significantly more civil engineering on both the methods to get the bulkier food in and most notably of getting the post processed food out.
Raising a steer to market weight uses about 750 bales of hay. But of course not all of the feed is hay, some is grazing and other are grains like corn. (About 2-3% conversion efficiency by weight of food humans can't process.) Now the same weight of vegans will consume only about 5% of that weight in higher quality food.
Of course moving the food and byproduct to and from consumers is affected by how compact and efficient the nutrition is.
The result is that if you object to the commercial treatment of animals, you should be aware of other issues.
Now not having children may be one reasonable response. The side effect of that is the world would then become populated by folks who not just don't share your views and ethics, but probably are not as intelligent. Thus answering the question of why we haven't found intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.
Amazing how one can twist a rationalization!
As an interesting aside, if a significant portion of London's population followed a vegan diet, the city would be almost uninhabitable without significantly more civil engineering on both the methods to get the bulkier food in and most notably of getting the post processed food out.
Raising a steer to market weight uses about 750 bales of hay. But of course not all of the feed is hay, some is grazing and other are grains like corn. (About 2-3% conversion efficiency by weight of food humans can't process.) Now the same weight of vegans will consume only about 5% of that weight in higher quality food.
Of course moving the food and byproduct to and from consumers is affected by how compact and efficient the nutrition is.
The result is that if you object to the commercial treatment of animals, you should be aware of other issues.
Now not having children may be one reasonable response. The side effect of that is the world would then become populated by folks who not just don't share your views and ethics, but probably are not as intelligent. Thus answering the question of why we haven't found intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.
Amazing how one can twist a rationalization!
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Sure. My bet is we have not the choice. The richest population can moves the lines, they will when they really understand Nature is an inerty wheel and they must do it for their own survey. China understood it for example buying fields and groves companies everywhere.
That s sad but I don't think modernest countries can assume their life style anymore. Their responability is to change and then let assume the less cultured nations to control the birth for their own interest. Or wars will be the adjustment with no winners as the biotop is global...weather or oceans can't be splited in areas. If elites of such countries don t take their responsabilities then best countries should close their doors to them and their children as they don't care of their countryfellows. But right now the responsabilities are in the camp of modernest countries and countries where the births are exponentials.
I think London can be vegan cause what we more need is carves. We need aound 80 g of proteins per day. 100g of beef is around 25 g of proteins same for fisch with 28 g, soya is maybe 7...so better when directly eated by humans than animals farming which can be reduced for minimal needs of B12 vitamins from the few I understand . B12 directly made less efficient and ask complex transforming process iirc. It could easier in GB than any else country to change cause the fields are owned by very few. The only problem is to find the good diet which reduce animals proteins without exploding the daily calories needed, cause proteined vegerables have also carves. I surmise veggies and vegans to be more aware of that than most of the eaters in the world...
I don't see countries doing some real homework and effort but just green washing...electrical cars is an example comming to mind bur some countries are way worse than others. Maths are stupborn, limited space and ressources = controlling human expansion. House is burning and we 're looking at elswhere...
Maybe canibalism could be a solution... I joke. But wasting animals ressource by collapsing species and change the food chain faster than slow evolution is a danger for everyone.
That s sad but I don't think modernest countries can assume their life style anymore. Their responability is to change and then let assume the less cultured nations to control the birth for their own interest. Or wars will be the adjustment with no winners as the biotop is global...weather or oceans can't be splited in areas. If elites of such countries don t take their responsabilities then best countries should close their doors to them and their children as they don't care of their countryfellows. But right now the responsabilities are in the camp of modernest countries and countries where the births are exponentials.
I think London can be vegan cause what we more need is carves. We need aound 80 g of proteins per day. 100g of beef is around 25 g of proteins same for fisch with 28 g, soya is maybe 7...so better when directly eated by humans than animals farming which can be reduced for minimal needs of B12 vitamins from the few I understand . B12 directly made less efficient and ask complex transforming process iirc. It could easier in GB than any else country to change cause the fields are owned by very few. The only problem is to find the good diet which reduce animals proteins without exploding the daily calories needed, cause proteined vegerables have also carves. I surmise veggies and vegans to be more aware of that than most of the eaters in the world...
I don't see countries doing some real homework and effort but just green washing...electrical cars is an example comming to mind bur some countries are way worse than others. Maths are stupborn, limited space and ressources = controlling human expansion. House is burning and we 're looking at elswhere...
Maybe canibalism could be a solution... I joke. But wasting animals ressource by collapsing species and change the food chain faster than slow evolution is a danger for everyone.
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I was feeling rotten, very hi stress at work, overweight - 243lb and increasing.
I tried something called 'living diet' it not a diet but a way of eating. Kind of turbo-vegan.
Have to get fresh veg and fruit, barley every day.
The idea is not eating dead food. No processed carbs or grocery store products.
I lost 15 lb right of and then started biking on trails at night.
Got down to 190lb in three years.
That's how I started collecting music. I needed lots of new music continuously. Initially had a iRiver and Alesrando headphones. Open back so can hear traffic.
Then one day in weak moment at lunch got two McFish burgers.
Now I'm in recovery , was not loosing weight and eating processed food.
Getting back to vegan now.
I tried something called 'living diet' it not a diet but a way of eating. Kind of turbo-vegan.
Have to get fresh veg and fruit, barley every day.
The idea is not eating dead food. No processed carbs or grocery store products.
I lost 15 lb right of and then started biking on trails at night.
Got down to 190lb in three years.
That's how I started collecting music. I needed lots of new music continuously. Initially had a iRiver and Alesrando headphones. Open back so can hear traffic.
Then one day in weak moment at lunch got two McFish burgers.
Now I'm in recovery , was not loosing weight and eating processed food.
Getting back to vegan now.
Interessant story Jfetter; that's great stoping eating animal food helped for your health.
I nearly stopped meat. Sooner I was around 150g a week and now it's more 2 or 3 weeks, farm chicken! I'm still eating fresh fisch twice a week while knowing he heavy metals and chemicals are long term dangerous as well, I mix it with 6 egs (bio from green farm) per week and cooked dry vegetables proteins I cook to avoid cans. I stop to eat industrial meat both to be not accomplice and victim in the same time. It's certainly few but that's my participation.
What I like most in Vegan mvt is about animal welfare while I'm not conviced stopping totally animal food is ok, we have a middle sized intestine and need B12 vitamins most of human being eated from hunting, farming and fisching. My personal believing and I may be wrong is health disease of modern countries comes from industrial shooted food and diet with industrial sugar and grease and of course too much salt. We also eat too much for our daily needs and we stopped to move being more and more behind desks or machine seats. Air pollution ceratinly doesn't help.
Edit : @ Jfetter : had you read Giula Enders book The Inside Story of Our Body's Most Underrated Organ ? It's interesting and gives also path about intestinale and health.
Agreed with Scottjoplin than veganism has a limited approach if speaking morale or ethic. I prefer looking at the positive side, they show the direction to go upon their own philosophy and deserve incentive for that.
It could be upgraded (no children work, etc, etc)
I nearly stopped meat. Sooner I was around 150g a week and now it's more 2 or 3 weeks, farm chicken! I'm still eating fresh fisch twice a week while knowing he heavy metals and chemicals are long term dangerous as well, I mix it with 6 egs (bio from green farm) per week and cooked dry vegetables proteins I cook to avoid cans. I stop to eat industrial meat both to be not accomplice and victim in the same time. It's certainly few but that's my participation.
What I like most in Vegan mvt is about animal welfare while I'm not conviced stopping totally animal food is ok, we have a middle sized intestine and need B12 vitamins most of human being eated from hunting, farming and fisching. My personal believing and I may be wrong is health disease of modern countries comes from industrial shooted food and diet with industrial sugar and grease and of course too much salt. We also eat too much for our daily needs and we stopped to move being more and more behind desks or machine seats. Air pollution ceratinly doesn't help.
Edit : @ Jfetter : had you read Giula Enders book The Inside Story of Our Body's Most Underrated Organ ? It's interesting and gives also path about intestinale and health.
Agreed with Scottjoplin than veganism has a limited approach if speaking morale or ethic. I prefer looking at the positive side, they show the direction to go upon their own philosophy and deserve incentive for that.
It could be upgraded (no children work, etc, etc)
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Vegetarian I can see being healthy, true Vegan much harder to eat enough and balanced diet without supplements. But let's not confuse eating an unhealthy diet with also eating meat. Also under consideration should be stage of body development and dietary needs.
Of course one could actually eat Vegan from a fast food restaurant and still be eating quite unhealthy food. (Although the converse of eating meat there and the meals being healthy for you, I suspect is impossible.)
Of course one could actually eat Vegan from a fast food restaurant and still be eating quite unhealthy food. (Although the converse of eating meat there and the meals being healthy for you, I suspect is impossible.)
It is my understanding that a plant-based diet focuses on foods derived from plants, but can include limited use of animal products.
A vegan diet totally excludes animal products.
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