you're right Galu, the problem is that I already have two other much more difficult crazy things in mind. 🙂
I'm almost ready... do you want to know what? 😆
a substantial improvement made last night and tested for a long time:
the inductance/coil on the woofer from 1.7 to 1.2 - on the tweeter 4.7uF*2 in line, coil in parallel 0.45 + resistance in line of 1.5 and 3 resistors of 3.3 in parallel. volume decreased by 6cm, little change. I'm starting to think that I should do a test with the old modified box and with the reflex.
a substantial improvement made last night and tested for a long time:
the inductance/coil on the woofer from 1.7 to 1.2 - on the tweeter 4.7uF*2 in line, coil in parallel 0.45 + resistance in line of 1.5 and 3 resistors of 3.3 in parallel. volume decreased by 6cm, little change. I'm starting to think that I should do a test with the old modified box and with the reflex.
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Your current values of C2 = 9.4 uF, L2 = 0.45 mH and L1 = 1.2 mH
- are not far removed from -
my suggested values of C2 = 8.2 uF, L2 = 0.5 mH and L1 = 1.0 mH.
Which gives me a warm glow. And no, it's not due to incontinence!
😆
I took the other woofer, loaded it in the central W. I reduced it just above the reflex, listening in the two boxes only woofer, tweeter deactivated, they sound different. now I take the chainsaw and cut wood.
I took the other woofer, loaded it in the central W. I reduced it just above the reflex, listening in the two boxes only woofer, tweeter deactivated, they sound different. now I take the chainsaw and cut wood.
I made the suggestion in recend posts to use a 1.3uH coil and a 4mF, then add resistors for the tweeter. This was simply based on knowing the resistance and size of the drivers and some experience. That is how we build speakers in, maybe 1978.
Make an educated guess, then try to refine it with more and different parts.
If you find such a starting point, it boils down to your ears (and often the parts you have at hand, as these are expensive), how far you can get from there. We spend endless hours listening to speakers under construction, switching to a reference from time to time and trying endless different combinations.
We had a preamp switched to mono and used the balance pot to get identical SPL on both speakers. Then, switching the amp from "A" speaker to "B" speaker with one on the left and the other one one the right, we could do objective comparisons.
I had a very neutral and well sounding 2-way as a reference speaker. To make it clear, we needed days, not hours.
The last time I did an uncomplicated, passive 2-way with quality drivers, I finished tuning and installing the x-over on a pair in one summer evening. Many commercial main stream, consumer speaker, IMO have not even got an hour of attention for tuning, by the way.
The cabinet was already build, of course. Measuring the drivers, looking how others had used them and some experience take the guesswork out of such a build. If you got a good driver and hit a nice spot on the baffle, there is no need to use a ton of parts for the crossover. Very often 12dB/oct are all you need. Funny enough, the most time, while tuning, I wear ear protection. The constant cirp, cirp from the analyser gets annoying after some time. I change crossover parts while measuring, in real time, so to say.
Without the measuring tool I'm not sure I would get that far, even in a week, as my ears, like me, have aged.
OK, things are not that simple as the text above might suggest, there is some directivity measuring and auditioning with selected music included as well. I may add, if you don't make mistakes in the planning, the practical part is much easier. I know there are many that take things that don't fit on paper with a "Let's just try it, maybe it will work after all?" attitude. That is how you waste your time... ask me how I know.
Anyway, if you would like to do more than building this single speaker in your life, stop now and get some simple measuring device. You already have the expensive parts and only need a good, cheap microphone. Thank me later.
Make an educated guess, then try to refine it with more and different parts.
If you find such a starting point, it boils down to your ears (and often the parts you have at hand, as these are expensive), how far you can get from there. We spend endless hours listening to speakers under construction, switching to a reference from time to time and trying endless different combinations.
We had a preamp switched to mono and used the balance pot to get identical SPL on both speakers. Then, switching the amp from "A" speaker to "B" speaker with one on the left and the other one one the right, we could do objective comparisons.
I had a very neutral and well sounding 2-way as a reference speaker. To make it clear, we needed days, not hours.
The last time I did an uncomplicated, passive 2-way with quality drivers, I finished tuning and installing the x-over on a pair in one summer evening. Many commercial main stream, consumer speaker, IMO have not even got an hour of attention for tuning, by the way.
The cabinet was already build, of course. Measuring the drivers, looking how others had used them and some experience take the guesswork out of such a build. If you got a good driver and hit a nice spot on the baffle, there is no need to use a ton of parts for the crossover. Very often 12dB/oct are all you need. Funny enough, the most time, while tuning, I wear ear protection. The constant cirp, cirp from the analyser gets annoying after some time. I change crossover parts while measuring, in real time, so to say.
Without the measuring tool I'm not sure I would get that far, even in a week, as my ears, like me, have aged.
OK, things are not that simple as the text above might suggest, there is some directivity measuring and auditioning with selected music included as well. I may add, if you don't make mistakes in the planning, the practical part is much easier. I know there are many that take things that don't fit on paper with a "Let's just try it, maybe it will work after all?" attitude. That is how you waste your time... ask me how I know.
Anyway, if you would like to do more than building this single speaker in your life, stop now and get some simple measuring device. You already have the expensive parts and only need a good, cheap microphone. Thank me later.
in 2006 a friend expert in car-audio made for me the project for my two-way - mid-woofer Vifa and Morel tweeter. on the woofer 12db with the capacitor, on the tweeter instead I don't know if 24db or 32, 2 capacitors, 1 inductance and 3 resistors, with the possibility of removing and putting on the fly to attenuate or increase. I mounted everything on a perforated board trying to keep the distances tight because I had little space. if I think about it I feel like taking it down and doing it again from the beginning, it could also come out another 30% smaller and perhaps with a few less scattered wires 🙂
the other day I took a look at the microphone you suggested and instead of the App. could I use something else?
the other day I took a look at the microphone you suggested and instead of the App. could I use something else?
The Dayton I showed you is the absolute cheapest way of getting useable mesurements. Even as "pros" will laught at it. It gets you about 5000% ahead of only using your ears and more or less useable advice from people "that know".
The next step up is a little more expensive and needs a laptop with a build in sound card and a CD player. That makes a very lean system you can use for car home audio.
It is called ATB PC and for 98€ you get a very nice, on first sight cheap looking microphone with it. Don't understimate it, it uses a selected special microphone electret capsule that is dead linear. "That" Panasonic capsule that went out of production years ago. Because of its very small diameter it does better than many important looking hardware and doesn't need phantom power and a special preamp. The usual Realtec sound chip in your laptop gets calibrated and works well. The developer is a very friendly, honest and uncomplicated person. Many professionals use the Kirchner stuff for fast every day work, even if they have much more expensive systems as well.
If you want a little more and plan to do TSP measurements, take the ATB PC pro version for 148€. It has a small rig for TSP included and doesn't need a CD player any more. It has to be registred to your hardware. He has no problem if you want to install it on 2-3 computers.
You also can upgrade from PC to Pro later.
The Kirchner systems are very practical and complete, you can download a test version, too. It is about as easy as such a system can get. They are fast and effective. If you just want to do measuring to build speakers, they are the simplest tool there is IMO.
https://kirchner-elektronik.de/en/atb-pc-pro-2/#
Arta and REW can do the same and much more, but are very academical and harder to use. You may need hours before you can be sure you got something useable.
If you want to use such free software, you will need an USB audio interface with Mic preamp and phantom power and are on your own with software. Stay away from USB microphones, as soon as things get time critical, you are lost.
One of the cheapest calibrated microphones is the
https://www.thomann.de/de/sonarworks_soundid_ref_measurement_micro.htm
There are others, like from Dayton, but I heard quite some complaints about wrong calibration.
For an entry level Interface consider this one:
https://www.thomann.de/de/esi_maya_22_usb.htm
It has the huge advantage to have no potentiometers. You will understand if you work with such gear for a while. Adjusting things in software is much simpler to set up once calibrated, instead of messing around with knobs... The ESI software has improved recently, there where some problems in the past. You may use it for measuring amps etc. as well.
If you think about buying used, you will not get anything cheaper. If you place an order with Thomann, you got 3 years warantee, right of return and free shipping. So a semi pro system wil cost you 114€, you can't beat that.
That is my idea, there are a thousand other options that will work just as well, but hardly anything cheaper.
If you are the kind of guy that does things just for learning and likes to spend quite some time on it, take option two.
If you only want a quick result to finish a job, the Kirchner is your friend. The end results with both will be just as good.
PS you need an amp to power the speaker during measurements, I forgot to mention.
The next step up is a little more expensive and needs a laptop with a build in sound card and a CD player. That makes a very lean system you can use for car home audio.
It is called ATB PC and for 98€ you get a very nice, on first sight cheap looking microphone with it. Don't understimate it, it uses a selected special microphone electret capsule that is dead linear. "That" Panasonic capsule that went out of production years ago. Because of its very small diameter it does better than many important looking hardware and doesn't need phantom power and a special preamp. The usual Realtec sound chip in your laptop gets calibrated and works well. The developer is a very friendly, honest and uncomplicated person. Many professionals use the Kirchner stuff for fast every day work, even if they have much more expensive systems as well.
If you want a little more and plan to do TSP measurements, take the ATB PC pro version for 148€. It has a small rig for TSP included and doesn't need a CD player any more. It has to be registred to your hardware. He has no problem if you want to install it on 2-3 computers.
You also can upgrade from PC to Pro later.
The Kirchner systems are very practical and complete, you can download a test version, too. It is about as easy as such a system can get. They are fast and effective. If you just want to do measuring to build speakers, they are the simplest tool there is IMO.
https://kirchner-elektronik.de/en/atb-pc-pro-2/#
Arta and REW can do the same and much more, but are very academical and harder to use. You may need hours before you can be sure you got something useable.
If you want to use such free software, you will need an USB audio interface with Mic preamp and phantom power and are on your own with software. Stay away from USB microphones, as soon as things get time critical, you are lost.
One of the cheapest calibrated microphones is the
https://www.thomann.de/de/sonarworks_soundid_ref_measurement_micro.htm
There are others, like from Dayton, but I heard quite some complaints about wrong calibration.
For an entry level Interface consider this one:
https://www.thomann.de/de/esi_maya_22_usb.htm
It has the huge advantage to have no potentiometers. You will understand if you work with such gear for a while. Adjusting things in software is much simpler to set up once calibrated, instead of messing around with knobs... The ESI software has improved recently, there where some problems in the past. You may use it for measuring amps etc. as well.
If you think about buying used, you will not get anything cheaper. If you place an order with Thomann, you got 3 years warantee, right of return and free shipping. So a semi pro system wil cost you 114€, you can't beat that.
That is my idea, there are a thousand other options that will work just as well, but hardly anything cheaper.
If you are the kind of guy that does things just for learning and likes to spend quite some time on it, take option two.
If you only want a quick result to finish a job, the Kirchner is your friend. The end results with both will be just as good.
PS you need an amp to power the speaker during measurements, I forgot to mention.
I do think it is possible to have to different drivers in a common enclosurer (if the drivers dont' differ to much). In the past, I did some analysis on the subject (see attachment)
remember those ugly things i assembled to hear how the components mounted on the front LS 3/5a sounded? here is the finished crossover with your suggestions. 
😀
😀
I updated the front to a more LS 3/5a look. I'll place the crossover the same way above the tweeter and tomorrow I'll do the satin black finishes.
@Turbowatch2
yes come on, I can't expect from these mid-woofers recovered from the central Wf, but after several attempts and a reduction in volume, there is balance and used as a PC monitor, they are more than fine. With a quality 13 woofer, it could definitely improve and get closer to the sound of the LS 3/5a.
yes come on, I can't expect from these mid-woofers recovered from the central Wf, but after several attempts and a reduction in volume, there is balance and used as a PC monitor, they are more than fine. With a quality 13 woofer, it could definitely improve and get closer to the sound of the LS 3/5a.
@AllenB
initially, the idea was - what if I mounted a woofer of a different brand, with the same diameter of 5.15/5.25" in the same box (LS 3/5a) what would change, can they be there?
but also from the answers of some I immediately understood that the title was not a great one 🙂
a title could be:
¹ different woofer in the LS 3/5a box
initially, the idea was - what if I mounted a woofer of a different brand, with the same diameter of 5.15/5.25" in the same box (LS 3/5a) what would change, can they be there?
but also from the answers of some I immediately understood that the title was not a great one 🙂
a title could be:
¹ different woofer in the LS 3/5a box
Some, like me, would appreciate something not sounding like LS 3/5a, but that may be people that think that religion belongs into a church...
i understand what you mean. in fact i don't think the LS 3/5a sound great either. it's just the satisfaction of having made them myself in the garage. (see my other topic - LS 3/5a garage) Sure, i took the new and latest generation components available on the market and the 15ohm crossover already assembled, but hearing them sound on par with the famous Rogers was a real satisfaction. Now that i also understood almost everything about the 15ohm crossover, i know them like the back of my hand. there is one speaker among the small ones that i like the way they sound, the Monitor Audio silver RS1 bi-amp and despite the low price range, listened to with an old school Yamaha, the one with the big candy buttons, they had a nice balance.
final front baffle( LS 3/5a) hybrid, for PC desktop destination with amp valve hybrid. (next)
😎
😎