The advantage of such a crossover is that you can tune it by ear quite well. Best is to have a second system in the room, so you can listen to the same music from a well known, good speaker from time to time. This prevents your brain from adjusting to a speaker tuned wrong.
The same effect as most of the "burn in" stories. Don't drink & tune, only very little alcohol changes your hearing big time.
There are quite some tricks to compare a good speaker with the one you tune. We used the white noise between FM stations to find holes and peaks in the response by switching from one to the other.
Long time ago...
The same effect as most of the "burn in" stories. Don't drink & tune, only very little alcohol changes your hearing big time.
There are quite some tricks to compare a good speaker with the one you tune. We used the white noise between FM stations to find holes and peaks in the response by switching from one to the other.
Long time ago...
Here's a suggestion of inductor and capacitor values to get you started in experimenting with Turbo's suggested crossover arrangement.
C2 = 8.2 uF, L2 = 0.5 mH and L1 = 1.0 mH
I'm assuming woofer 16 ohm, tweeter 4 ohm and a crossover frequency between 3.0 and 3.2 kHz.
C2 = 8.2 uF, L2 = 0.5 mH and L1 = 1.0 mH
I'm assuming woofer 16 ohm, tweeter 4 ohm and a crossover frequency between 3.0 and 3.2 kHz.
first I didn't succeed, I didn't have time for the test - I connected on the right the LS 3/5a 15ohm and on the left the hybrid prototype.
I have no words! right now I'm listening with the 12db/oct first version.
I have no words! right now I'm listening with the 12db/oct first version.
the first thing you notice/hear is a lower bass depth. with this first cross the woofer has more voice than the B110 and the Tweeter needs one or two resistors. the other thing I see is that the central diamond box housed two woofers and the reflex. immediately at sight you can tell that a single one could work better with a slightly smaller box.
I have to balance it, I have to give it those medium-low medium-high airs that I hear in the LS 3/5a on the right. 🙂
I have to balance it, I have to give it those medium-low medium-high airs that I hear in the LS 3/5a on the right. 🙂
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examining its crossover mentioned in post #58 for the two woofers in addition to the inductance there is also a 20uF capacitor.
I connected it and with that there is more balance between the mid range and the tweeter.
I connected it and with that there is more balance between the mid range and the tweeter.
What I see in this forum is that people think more parts in a crossover are better and a sign of quality and sophistication. Some come up with simulated 24dB constuctions, notch filters and other funny options to flatten non existing unlinearities in simulated frequency responses. I even saw a 48dB crossover from some proud simulator user. I bet he never had an actual coil or capacitor in is hand.
In fact the opposite is true! Any part you put in such a construction uses up energy an makes a speaker sound less lifely. The poor signal has to work its way trough a dangerous jungle of frequency and phase bending enemys that rip parts of it away and turn them into useless heat.
The better your drivers are, the simpler a passive crossover can be. The position two drivers have on the baffle has more influence on the final sound than the most expensive capacitor rolled from pure silver.
A box full of 1000% overpriced crossover parts don't make a driver sound better, even if the Mundorf, Duelund and whatever crooks want you to believe this nonsense. The best crossover is the one that does the job with the lowest part count, that should be written as a warning on every cap, coil and resistor.
Because simulation programs can be had and used by anyone today, a lot of the time, work and knowledge consuming part of speaker building is ignored. People that started to be speaker builders last week are sure to be experts by next monday, enabeled to build better products than Altec, Lansing and Klipsch ever did. There should be a book that tells people the whole story, so they get the whole picture and don't reduce it to entering some data into some simulator. The problem with these books? You got to read AND understand them, the number of pages they are written on is more than the average dude reads in two years.
PS @jeffrowland, don't take this personal there is just a new thread every day, where someone wants an instruction to build an reverence quality speaker in 5 easy steps, from some old drivers he found in the garbage can.
In 50 years of speaker building, there are still the same kind of people around who want to make the art of speaker constuction an "every idiot can do it" job, learnable in less than a week.
In fact the opposite is true! Any part you put in such a construction uses up energy an makes a speaker sound less lifely. The poor signal has to work its way trough a dangerous jungle of frequency and phase bending enemys that rip parts of it away and turn them into useless heat.
The better your drivers are, the simpler a passive crossover can be. The position two drivers have on the baffle has more influence on the final sound than the most expensive capacitor rolled from pure silver.
A box full of 1000% overpriced crossover parts don't make a driver sound better, even if the Mundorf, Duelund and whatever crooks want you to believe this nonsense. The best crossover is the one that does the job with the lowest part count, that should be written as a warning on every cap, coil and resistor.
Because simulation programs can be had and used by anyone today, a lot of the time, work and knowledge consuming part of speaker building is ignored. People that started to be speaker builders last week are sure to be experts by next monday, enabeled to build better products than Altec, Lansing and Klipsch ever did. There should be a book that tells people the whole story, so they get the whole picture and don't reduce it to entering some data into some simulator. The problem with these books? You got to read AND understand them, the number of pages they are written on is more than the average dude reads in two years.
PS @jeffrowland, don't take this personal there is just a new thread every day, where someone wants an instruction to build an reverence quality speaker in 5 easy steps, from some old drivers he found in the garbage can.
In 50 years of speaker building, there are still the same kind of people around who want to make the art of speaker constuction an "every idiot can do it" job, learnable in less than a week.
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I understand your general observations @Turbowatch2 believe me I don't want to improve my LS 3/5a. It's just an idea to make two computer/desktop speakers using one of the various Ls3 boxes I've built and I find it fun and satisfying if they also sound good.
reflections after connecting the diamond 8 crossover.
the lack in the low range is the same - tomorrow I try to introduce a medium hard polyurethane panel with the aim of partially closing the part of the box just above the woofer. this should reduce the working space and if it works I will hear it immediately.
the lack in the low range is the same - tomorrow I try to introduce a medium hard polyurethane panel with the aim of partially closing the part of the box just above the woofer. this should reduce the working space and if it works I will hear it immediately.
Reducing the volume into which the woofer operates will raise the system Q as well as the frequency of resonance.
In the case of your woofer this may result in a fuller, if not extended, bass response.
In the case of your woofer this may result in a fuller, if not extended, bass response.
hi Galu,
I think that by making it work at a litre closer to its original housing, it could improve.
I also have to remove a bit of voice, maybe I'll try with a cut to 2500
I think that by making it work at a litre closer to its original housing, it could improve.
I also have to remove a bit of voice, maybe I'll try with a cut to 2500
Put a few bricks from Styrofoam (Polistirolo) inside the box to reduce volume. Anyway, this will not change anything important. The woofer will keep its sound signature.
Try a single coil of maybe 1.3 mH, no capacitor for the woofer. This does more for what you seek.
I don't know what number of part you got, caps, coils and resistors. It is impossible to transfer years of learning in a forum. You got to get a feeling for what these parts do. Try to get one driver right and match the second one it to , then improve on the first again.
Try a single coil of maybe 1.3 mH, no capacitor for the woofer. This does more for what you seek.
I don't know what number of part you got, caps, coils and resistors. It is impossible to transfer years of learning in a forum. You got to get a feeling for what these parts do. Try to get one driver right and match the second one it to , then improve on the first again.
Capacitance and inductance do not dissipate energy.
Frequency and phase are improved when you filter what needs to be filtered.
@AllenB
there is no flow of electricity without loss. Or do you keep your crossover at zero° Celvin?
Sure the phase can be improved in a positive way if you know and measure exactly what you have got. It can completely mess up as well. That is why some take the time to measure speakers.
One can try to correct in the crossover, the things he messed up in the physical construction of an x-way speaker. Sure. Some like it complicated.
I try to coose and mount drivers in a way that only needs a low part count in the x-over.
Since the invention of extruded foam panels making a few test baffles is no nightmare any more.
Then, there is a huge number of drivers to choose from. I don't need to force drivers together that do not like each other. If you work in the industry that is different, as you have to sell the cheapest crapy drivers money can buy for ridiculous prices. The difference, the industry only has to pay a few Cent for the caps and coils we are charged a dozend Dollars. Even in 10.000$ speakers you find BENIC electrolitycs. Ask why.
I do not see any use in a speaker that has cheaper drivers than the $ sum of x-over parts. Not yet at least.
If you work for Jantzen and live in Scandinavia that may be something different.
There are others that net the profit from a huge number of expensive boutique parts in a combination. In most cases to me such speaker sound boring, independend of component price.
Maybe you are on Danny's team, then, sorry.
If you need 100$ of crossover parts to make 50$ of drivers play right, you should think the concept over.
Maybe 100$ of drivers will work with only 50$ in parts and sound much better.
If I look at the overal response of a speaker, I see no need to get everting flat within +- 1 dB. Those speakers only have advantages in an anechoic room during a measuring contest. A bit as usefull for audio as a car in dB-Drag competition. OK, if you listen in free field with your head in a vice, but thats academical.
Life would be boring if anyone had the same taste in such non life treatening affairs.
there is no flow of electricity without loss. Or do you keep your crossover at zero° Celvin?
Sure the phase can be improved in a positive way if you know and measure exactly what you have got. It can completely mess up as well. That is why some take the time to measure speakers.
One can try to correct in the crossover, the things he messed up in the physical construction of an x-way speaker. Sure. Some like it complicated.
I try to coose and mount drivers in a way that only needs a low part count in the x-over.
Since the invention of extruded foam panels making a few test baffles is no nightmare any more.
Then, there is a huge number of drivers to choose from. I don't need to force drivers together that do not like each other. If you work in the industry that is different, as you have to sell the cheapest crapy drivers money can buy for ridiculous prices. The difference, the industry only has to pay a few Cent for the caps and coils we are charged a dozend Dollars. Even in 10.000$ speakers you find BENIC electrolitycs. Ask why.
I do not see any use in a speaker that has cheaper drivers than the $ sum of x-over parts. Not yet at least.
If you work for Jantzen and live in Scandinavia that may be something different.
There are others that net the profit from a huge number of expensive boutique parts in a combination. In most cases to me such speaker sound boring, independend of component price.
Maybe you are on Danny's team, then, sorry.
If you need 100$ of crossover parts to make 50$ of drivers play right, you should think the concept over.
Maybe 100$ of drivers will work with only 50$ in parts and sound much better.
If I look at the overal response of a speaker, I see no need to get everting flat within +- 1 dB. Those speakers only have advantages in an anechoic room during a measuring contest. A bit as usefull for audio as a car in dB-Drag competition. OK, if you listen in free field with your head in a vice, but thats academical.
Life would be boring if anyone had the same taste in such non life treatening affairs.
Yesss! 
I opted for a 5db attenuation, but I think I'll go towards 6db, maybe I'll try 6db.
on the woofer single inductance of 1.7, no capacitor.
on the tweeter 9.1uF and parallel inductance of 0.47mH, then the two resistors 1.5 + 6.6
on the tweeter polarity inversion, on the woofer no.
for now without reducing the volume it's a good goal.
I opted for a 5db attenuation, but I think I'll go towards 6db, maybe I'll try 6db.
on the woofer single inductance of 1.7, no capacitor.
on the tweeter 9.1uF and parallel inductance of 0.47mH, then the two resistors 1.5 + 6.6
on the tweeter polarity inversion, on the woofer no.
for now without reducing the volume it's a good goal.
keep in mind that the diamond 8 centre is a 20mm thick medium density box where the two woofers work in reflex with a volume slightly greater than the LS3. then there are the B110 and the T27 which we all know what they are capable of doing and competition with the two in this experiment is impossible.
listening again better, I think I will attenuate the tweeter a little less and bring the cut from the current 2400 to 2700/2800.
listening again better, I think I will attenuate the tweeter a little less and bring the cut from the current 2400 to 2700/2800.
So, your journey towards creating a pair of desktop speakers utilising existing enclosures and salvaged drivers approaches its end.
Sometimes, one just cannot beat a little hands-on fun! 😎
Sometimes, one just cannot beat a little hands-on fun! 😎
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