Raffi, Till,
Thanks again for parameters you’ve sent. I've tried to simulate SP-155X in UNIKON using Hornresp: http://www.users.bigpond.com/dmcbean and I'm quite happy because i got something very similar to your graphs
.
This simulation remind me of one German design called “Cheap Trick 193” with SPH-60X I built 2 years ago. It is quite similar to your designs: the rear chamber is 14 litres, it uses short conical horn AH=14cm2, AM=140cm2 and length = 30cm. Hornresp gave for it perfectly flat response (+-3dB) from 45Hz to 1000 Hz @100dB/W in the ½ Pi !. I don’t think that this simulation corresponds exactly to the reality but the bass this system provides is something special.
Can I built one copy of UNIKON for my sp-155Xs using parameters you provided ? Could you sent me also more details/guidelines ?
Do you envisage providing complete plans of yours designs for diy community (including famous passive acoustic filter?
TIA, vladimir.
Thanks again for parameters you’ve sent. I've tried to simulate SP-155X in UNIKON using Hornresp: http://www.users.bigpond.com/dmcbean and I'm quite happy because i got something very similar to your graphs
. This simulation remind me of one German design called “Cheap Trick 193” with SPH-60X I built 2 years ago. It is quite similar to your designs: the rear chamber is 14 litres, it uses short conical horn AH=14cm2, AM=140cm2 and length = 30cm. Hornresp gave for it perfectly flat response (+-3dB) from 45Hz to 1000 Hz @100dB/W in the ½ Pi !. I don’t think that this simulation corresponds exactly to the reality but the bass this system provides is something special.
Can I built one copy of UNIKON for my sp-155Xs using parameters you provided ? Could you sent me also more details/guidelines ?
Do you envisage providing complete plans of yours designs for diy community (including famous passive acoustic filter
?TIA, vladimir.
For us in the US, I'm wondering if a cheap driver suitable for this enclosure might be the pioneer B20 8" (though it will probably need a tweeter about 8 - 9 Khz, not necessarily a bad thing since the pioneer covers the bass and critical midrange region)
on an unrelated topic, i'm hoping a coat of damar or puzzle coat can smoothen up the breakup modes in the response of this driver.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-045
Actually Measured T/S on the web (as opposed to manufacturer specs):
Fs 39 Hz
Re 6.25
Qms 2.9
Qes 0.51
Qts 0.44
Vas 0.066853 cubic metres
What kind of rear chambervolume and horn flare would I use to employ this driver?
Thanks very much
on an unrelated topic, i'm hoping a coat of damar or puzzle coat can smoothen up the breakup modes in the response of this driver.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-045
Actually Measured T/S on the web (as opposed to manufacturer specs):
Fs 39 Hz
Re 6.25
Qms 2.9
Qes 0.51
Qts 0.44
Vas 0.066853 cubic metres
What kind of rear chambervolume and horn flare would I use to employ this driver?
Thanks very much
Hi vladimir,
ok I know the CT 193 from Klang & Ton. It plays deep indeed, but the rear chamber with 14 Liters is to big. We recomend 9-10 Liters, 0,4 meters hyperbolic length and AM 200 cm². You have a better stereo 3 d image with a great deep sound stage.
Enclosed you find the guideline for the 155x horn.
Detailed Plans are not availlable, since this is more than a hobby for us. But we can provide you with DIY kits of all hornspeakers listed on http://www.klangform-akustik.de. These parts include CNC cut plywood rings, which you glue together and abrade them. So you have the possibility to build your own design horn.
sp155x horn design
guideline
witdh 20 cm
length cm² horn curve
0.000 70.00 2.80 cm
0.014 74.54 2.98
0.028 79.38 3.18
0.042 84.54 3.38
0.056 90.02 3.60
0.070 95.87 3.83
0.084 102.09 4.08
0.098 108.72 4.35
0.112 115.78 4.63
0.126 123.29 4.93
0.140 131.30 5.25
0.154 139.82 5.59
0.168 148.89 5.96
0.182 158.56 6.34
0.196 168.85 6.75
0.210 179.81 7.19
0.224 191.49 7.66
0.238 203.92 8.16
0.252 217.16 8.69
0.266 231.25 9.25
0.280 246.26 9.85
0.294 262.25 10.49
0.308 279.27 11.17
0.322 297.40 11.90
0.336 316.71 12.67
0.350 337.27 13.49
0.364 359.16 14.37
0.378 382.48 15.30
0.392 407.31 16.29
0.406 433.75 17.35
0.420 461.90 18.48
0.434 491.89 19.68
0.448 523.82 20.95
0.462 557.82 22.31
0.476 594.03 23.76
0.490 632.60 25.30
0.504 673.66 26.95
0.518 717.39 28.70
0.532 763.96 30.56
0.546 813.56 32.54
0.560 866.37 34.65
0.574 922.61 36.90
0.588 982.50 39.30
0.602 1046.28 41.85
0.616 1114.20 44.57
0.630 1186.53 47.46
0.644 1263.55 50.54
0.658 1345.58 53.82
0.672 1432.92 57.32
0.686 1525.94 61.04
0.700 1625.00 65.00
@ zobsky
looks quite good
enclosed a sim. Please note that we do not calculate the rear chamber volume. We build first big cabinets and make the smaller and LISTEN in which volume the driver sounds best with perfect deep stereo image.
I would suggest about 45-55 Liters rear chamber volume. Could also be more or less.
Greetings
Raffi
ok I know the CT 193 from Klang & Ton. It plays deep indeed, but the rear chamber with 14 Liters is to big. We recomend 9-10 Liters, 0,4 meters hyperbolic length and AM 200 cm². You have a better stereo 3 d image with a great deep sound stage.
Enclosed you find the guideline for the 155x horn.
Detailed Plans are not availlable, since this is more than a hobby for us. But we can provide you with DIY kits of all hornspeakers listed on http://www.klangform-akustik.de. These parts include CNC cut plywood rings, which you glue together and abrade them. So you have the possibility to build your own design horn.
sp155x horn design
guideline
witdh 20 cm
length cm² horn curve
0.000 70.00 2.80 cm
0.014 74.54 2.98
0.028 79.38 3.18
0.042 84.54 3.38
0.056 90.02 3.60
0.070 95.87 3.83
0.084 102.09 4.08
0.098 108.72 4.35
0.112 115.78 4.63
0.126 123.29 4.93
0.140 131.30 5.25
0.154 139.82 5.59
0.168 148.89 5.96
0.182 158.56 6.34
0.196 168.85 6.75
0.210 179.81 7.19
0.224 191.49 7.66
0.238 203.92 8.16
0.252 217.16 8.69
0.266 231.25 9.25
0.280 246.26 9.85
0.294 262.25 10.49
0.308 279.27 11.17
0.322 297.40 11.90
0.336 316.71 12.67
0.350 337.27 13.49
0.364 359.16 14.37
0.378 382.48 15.30
0.392 407.31 16.29
0.406 433.75 17.35
0.420 461.90 18.48
0.434 491.89 19.68
0.448 523.82 20.95
0.462 557.82 22.31
0.476 594.03 23.76
0.490 632.60 25.30
0.504 673.66 26.95
0.518 717.39 28.70
0.532 763.96 30.56
0.546 813.56 32.54
0.560 866.37 34.65
0.574 922.61 36.90
0.588 982.50 39.30
0.602 1046.28 41.85
0.616 1114.20 44.57
0.630 1186.53 47.46
0.644 1263.55 50.54
0.658 1345.58 53.82
0.672 1432.92 57.32
0.686 1525.94 61.04
0.700 1625.00 65.00
@ zobsky
looks quite good
enclosed a sim. Please note that we do not calculate the rear chamber volume. We build first big cabinets and make the smaller and LISTEN in which volume the driver sounds best with perfect deep stereo image.
I would suggest about 45-55 Liters rear chamber volume. Could also be more or less.
Greetings
Raffi
Attachments
Klangform said:
Raffi,
Thanks a lot for this information, i will try rebuild the CT-193 to see (hear) the difference you are talking about. So, you suggest volume of 9-10 litres instead of 14, Am is 200cm² instead of 140cm², length is 40cm instead of 30cm. What about At ?
Thanks, I will visit your site to see your offer more in detail.
Thank you for the data. The length of your horn is 70cm, width 25cm, AM=1625cm², At=70cm² and, so, the rear chamber is 25 litres?
I'm planning to build the first prototype with only one right angled fold (a la bucschorn or nagoka horns) I hope this simplistic approach will not deteriorate the quality of sound so much.
Thanks,
vladimir
Hi vladimir,
wait. regarding 155x: The width is 20 cm not 25 cm !!!!
For the SP60X take AH:25 cm² length 0,4 AM:200cm² rear chamber 10 Liters
hyperbolic contour
SP60X horn
width 18 cm
AM: 18x12 cm
length
0.000 25.00 1.47
0.008 25.03 1.47
0.016 25.12 1.48
0.024 25.28 1.49
0.032 25.50 1.50
0.040 25.78 1.52
0.048 26.12 1.54
0.056 26.54 1.56
0.064 27.02 1.59
0.072 27.57 1.62
0.080 28.20 1.66
0.088 28.91 1.70
0.096 29.69 1.75
0.104 30.56 1.80
0.112 31.52 1.85
0.120 32.58 1.92
0.128 33.73 1.98
0.136 34.99 2.06
0.144 36.35 2.14
0.152 37.84 2.23
0.160 39.45 2.32
0.168 41.19 2.42
0.176 43.07 2.53
0.184 45.11 2.65
0.192 47.30 2.78
0.200 49.67 2.92
0.208 52.21 3.07
0.216 54.96 3.23
0.224 57.91 3.41
0.232 61.08 3.59
0.240 64.50 3.79
0.248 68.17 4.01
0.256 72.11 4.24
0.264 76.35 4.49
0.272 80.90 4.76
0.280 85.79 5.05
0.288 91.04 5.36
0.296 96.68 5.69
0.304 102.73 6.04
0.312 109.22 6.42
0.320 116.19 6.83
0.328 123.67 7.27
0.336 131.70 7.75
0.344 140.31 8.25
0.352 149.55 8.80
0.360 159.47 9.38
0.368 170.11 10.01
0.376 181.52 10.68
0.384 193.77 11.40
0.392 206.91 12.17
0.400 221.00 13.00
Greetings
Raffi
wait. regarding 155x: The width is 20 cm not 25 cm !!!!
For the SP60X take AH:25 cm² length 0,4 AM:200cm² rear chamber 10 Liters
hyperbolic contour
SP60X horn
width 18 cm
AM: 18x12 cm
length
0.000 25.00 1.47
0.008 25.03 1.47
0.016 25.12 1.48
0.024 25.28 1.49
0.032 25.50 1.50
0.040 25.78 1.52
0.048 26.12 1.54
0.056 26.54 1.56
0.064 27.02 1.59
0.072 27.57 1.62
0.080 28.20 1.66
0.088 28.91 1.70
0.096 29.69 1.75
0.104 30.56 1.80
0.112 31.52 1.85
0.120 32.58 1.92
0.128 33.73 1.98
0.136 34.99 2.06
0.144 36.35 2.14
0.152 37.84 2.23
0.160 39.45 2.32
0.168 41.19 2.42
0.176 43.07 2.53
0.184 45.11 2.65
0.192 47.30 2.78
0.200 49.67 2.92
0.208 52.21 3.07
0.216 54.96 3.23
0.224 57.91 3.41
0.232 61.08 3.59
0.240 64.50 3.79
0.248 68.17 4.01
0.256 72.11 4.24
0.264 76.35 4.49
0.272 80.90 4.76
0.280 85.79 5.05
0.288 91.04 5.36
0.296 96.68 5.69
0.304 102.73 6.04
0.312 109.22 6.42
0.320 116.19 6.83
0.328 123.67 7.27
0.336 131.70 7.75
0.344 140.31 8.25
0.352 149.55 8.80
0.360 159.47 9.38
0.368 170.11 10.01
0.376 181.52 10.68
0.384 193.77 11.40
0.392 206.91 12.17
0.400 221.00 13.00
Greetings
Raffi
Raffi,
Your plots are very interesting and I am busy studying these plots to see what I can learn. But I do have a question.
In the columns that you use to describe the horn :
width 20 cm
length cm² horn curve
0.000 70.00 2.80 cm
0.014 74.54 2.98
0.028 79.38 3.18
.
.
.
.
What is the third column?
Thanks in advance
Your plots are very interesting and I am busy studying these plots to see what I can learn. But I do have a question.
In the columns that you use to describe the horn :
width 20 cm
length cm² horn curve
0.000 70.00 2.80 cm
0.014 74.54 2.98
0.028 79.38 3.18
.
.
.
.
What is the third column?
Thanks in advance
Hi Vincent,
thanks. An international site is on the way. The DIY Kits are already available. Just ask if ýou are interested.
@ vladimir: Keep the Hornmouth in the Front. If you put it in the back of the speaker you loose bass gain. This was made for the horns where you have a lot of midrange output. By placing the Mouth at the back you let them loose gain.
Greetings
Raffi
thanks. An international site is on the way. The DIY Kits are already available. Just ask if ýou are interested.
@ vladimir: Keep the Hornmouth in the Front. If you put it in the back of the speaker you loose bass gain. This was made for the horns where you have a lot of midrange output. By placing the Mouth at the back you let them loose gain.
Greetings
Raffi
Till,
I would be very interested in understanding your full design theory. If you want to discuss it, that would be great. I did have a few moments last night to run a couple of quick simulatons with my updated MathCad back loaded horn worksheets (includes baffle step, real geometry, and floor reflections) and the results were interesting. I need to do some more work, it would be very interesting to run the exact same design as your AJHorn simulation to compare the results.
Your English is fine!
I would be very interested in understanding your full design theory. If you want to discuss it, that would be great. I did have a few moments last night to run a couple of quick simulatons with my updated MathCad back loaded horn worksheets (includes baffle step, real geometry, and floor reflections) and the results were interesting. I need to do some more work, it would be very interesting to run the exact same design as your AJHorn simulation to compare the results.
Your English is fine!
Theory
<<I would be very interested in understanding your full design theory.>>
Talking about theory, I am a beginer, and I am about to build my first TQWT and Horn project with the Zigmahornet, and the Swan 101 (Nagaoka).
Since I'd like to understand better what I do, and ultimately, being able to calculate my own horn project, could one suggest me some good reading?
Opened to suggestions.
Thanks!
<<I would be very interested in understanding your full design theory.>>
Talking about theory, I am a beginer, and I am about to build my first TQWT and Horn project with the Zigmahornet, and the Swan 101 (Nagaoka).
Since I'd like to understand better what I do, and ultimately, being able to calculate my own horn project, could one suggest me some good reading?
Opened to suggestions.
Thanks!
Hi Martin and all interested users,
In the following lines I will try to explain how Raffi and I are building our BL-horn speakers.
The first consideration to BL-horns is that we have got vented enclosure. The driver plays in a rear camber that is vented with a port like a bass-reflex. We calculate the BL-horn after we have found out what the frequency of the driver in the enclosure is.
The hardest way is to find out which volume the driver needs. In the last years we have found out that there is a possibility beside the usual way. We call it the resonance-theory. To explain it hopefully in easy words: we take a driver and put it in a volume and listen to what and how the driver plays. If the volume is too big the sound is very “slow”, kind of “boring”. It sounds if the singer has no ambitions to perform.
If the volume is too small it is the exact opposite. The sound is “aggressive”, “hard” kind of “over dynamic”.
We change the volume until the sound is complete three-dimensional. It takes a little practice but it is an easy way when you have got it once. We cant make a good speaker out of a bad with the “resonance theory” but we get the best solution without any electronic adjustment.
The best way would be to show you how this works but we are too far away from you. But maybe we find a speaker we both got and you try a volume I suggest and you play with the volume to see what happens.
A vented box needs in the most cases the double volume of a closed on. So when we have the closed volume we try the same experiment in a vented box to find out how the speaker gets along with it.
For the first steps to develop a BL-horn with our way we need following frequencies:
fb = frequency of the driver in the enclosure
fl = frequency of the length
fm = frequency of opening area
fb can be found out with fb=fs*square root[(vas/vb)+1]
fs is the free air resonance frequency of the driver
vas is the volume gotten out of Thiele & Small
The calculation is not exact but it is exact enough for the further way we are going.
A BL-horn need 15-20% more volume than the BR.
Ok lets go further with the BL-horn. As soon as we got the “right” volume we can set the parameters for the horn.
For example a driver has a frequency of 80Hz in the vented box the we use this frequency for our calculations.
The horn opening Am can be calculated with:
Am = [9470/(fm^2*4)]/8
fm should not be deeper than the resonance-frequency of the driver. So in most cases we set fm = fs
To find out how the function of the horn is we need the following formula:
Ax=Ah*e^(x*k)
Ax is the opening area at the length x (from the horn-throat)
Ah is the horn-throat
e is the Eulersche number (2,71828…)
x is the length from Ah
k is the constant
k=(4*fl*PI)/344
fl is the frequency of the length and is between the fb and fm
fb > fl > fm
When you build a horn with this way your impedance curve (???) will loke like a BR- curve. Just take a look at our simulations.
Actually I can reduce the length of the horn if I reduce Am and Ah. That has to happen in exact proportions. That is the reason why I have the bold statement that a BR is nothing else than a very short BL-horn.
Hope I could help you with that.
We will describe the whole procedure with parameters and simulations and build horns (with plans for the private use) soon on our website (http://www.hornlautsprecher.de)
Best regards Till
I cant open up a new thread, so maybe someone could do this for me? or do u want to leave this here?
In the following lines I will try to explain how Raffi and I are building our BL-horn speakers.
The first consideration to BL-horns is that we have got vented enclosure. The driver plays in a rear camber that is vented with a port like a bass-reflex. We calculate the BL-horn after we have found out what the frequency of the driver in the enclosure is.
The hardest way is to find out which volume the driver needs. In the last years we have found out that there is a possibility beside the usual way. We call it the resonance-theory. To explain it hopefully in easy words: we take a driver and put it in a volume and listen to what and how the driver plays. If the volume is too big the sound is very “slow”, kind of “boring”. It sounds if the singer has no ambitions to perform.
If the volume is too small it is the exact opposite. The sound is “aggressive”, “hard” kind of “over dynamic”.
We change the volume until the sound is complete three-dimensional. It takes a little practice but it is an easy way when you have got it once. We cant make a good speaker out of a bad with the “resonance theory” but we get the best solution without any electronic adjustment.
The best way would be to show you how this works but we are too far away from you. But maybe we find a speaker we both got and you try a volume I suggest and you play with the volume to see what happens.
A vented box needs in the most cases the double volume of a closed on. So when we have the closed volume we try the same experiment in a vented box to find out how the speaker gets along with it.
For the first steps to develop a BL-horn with our way we need following frequencies:
fb = frequency of the driver in the enclosure
fl = frequency of the length
fm = frequency of opening area
fb can be found out with fb=fs*square root[(vas/vb)+1]
fs is the free air resonance frequency of the driver
vas is the volume gotten out of Thiele & Small
The calculation is not exact but it is exact enough for the further way we are going.
A BL-horn need 15-20% more volume than the BR.
Ok lets go further with the BL-horn. As soon as we got the “right” volume we can set the parameters for the horn.
For example a driver has a frequency of 80Hz in the vented box the we use this frequency for our calculations.
The horn opening Am can be calculated with:
Am = [9470/(fm^2*4)]/8
fm should not be deeper than the resonance-frequency of the driver. So in most cases we set fm = fs
To find out how the function of the horn is we need the following formula:
Ax=Ah*e^(x*k)
Ax is the opening area at the length x (from the horn-throat)
Ah is the horn-throat
e is the Eulersche number (2,71828…)
x is the length from Ah
k is the constant
k=(4*fl*PI)/344
fl is the frequency of the length and is between the fb and fm
fb > fl > fm
When you build a horn with this way your impedance curve (???) will loke like a BR- curve. Just take a look at our simulations.
Actually I can reduce the length of the horn if I reduce Am and Ah. That has to happen in exact proportions. That is the reason why I have the bold statement that a BR is nothing else than a very short BL-horn.
Hope I could help you with that.
We will describe the whole procedure with parameters and simulations and build horns (with plans for the private use) soon on our website (http://www.hornlautsprecher.de)
Best regards Till
I cant open up a new thread, so maybe someone could do this for me? or do u want to leave this here?
Hi Till!
Thank you very much for the explain how You are building your amazing BL-horn speakers!!!
When I started this thread I thought I will never understand the "way of the Replikon"....because the first info bits was so much inconsistent with what I learnt about the BLH theorys. ( for example: too big chamber = boomy bass etc.)
I am very interesting for your new web site!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think you don't need to open up a new thread because the infos you give us are absolute good for: to understanding the Replikon horn!
Thanks again!
Greets:
Tyimo
Thank you very much for the explain how You are building your amazing BL-horn speakers!!!
When I started this thread I thought I will never understand the "way of the Replikon"....because the first info bits was so much inconsistent with what I learnt about the BLH theorys. ( for example: too big chamber = boomy bass etc.)
I am very interesting for your new web site!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think you don't need to open up a new thread because the infos you give us are absolute good for: to understanding the Replikon horn!
Thanks again!
Greets:
Tyimo
Hello Raffi and Till,
Thank you for the detailed write-up describing your method for designing the Replikon horn. I found it very interesting and you are definitely approaching the problem in a different manner then I have seen before.
This is what struck me immediately when I saw the impedance curves you were posting. They looked like BR curves. So I started doing some simulations with my own MathCad worksheets using the T/S parameters from a few different Lowther drivers. The results I was gettign looked a lot like yours so I continued to play with the modesl to see what I could learn. I found a couple of interesting things I thought I would offer for your consideration.
First I used my simplified BLH model which treats the driver and horn mouth as coincident and radiates into half, quarter, or on eight space. Here is a picture of my results.
Thank you for the detailed write-up describing your method for designing the Replikon horn. I found it very interesting and you are definitely approaching the problem in a different manner then I have seen before.
This is what struck me immediately when I saw the impedance curves you were posting. They looked like BR curves. So I started doing some simulations with my own MathCad worksheets using the T/S parameters from a few different Lowther drivers. The results I was gettign looked a lot like yours so I continued to play with the modesl to see what I could learn. I found a couple of interesting things I thought I would offer for your consideration.
First I used my simplified BLH model which treats the driver and horn mouth as coincident and radiates into half, quarter, or on eight space. Here is a picture of my results.
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