One other stupid question
Hypex talk about a signal cable. What's that for? Ideally I'd like the amp to switch on automatically on sencing asignal from the pre amp, then to swtich off if it doesn't sence anything after 5 mins.
This'll make the unit more wife friendly and enanle me to hide it away somewhere.
Ian
Hypex talk about a signal cable. What's that for? Ideally I'd like the amp to switch on automatically on sencing asignal from the pre amp, then to swtich off if it doesn't sence anything after 5 mins.
This'll make the unit more wife friendly and enanle me to hide it away somewhere.
Ian
Nothing is "all the same".
Not being an expert, here's what I know (or I think I know):
*The bigger the VA rate the better the voltage regulation.
*The bigger the TX and cap bank, the bigger the potencial for radiated noise.
*Bigger TX are said to have potencially better dynamics/bass.
* Toroids are efficient (smaller) and high bandwidth but pass more noise from the mains. Plitron's are very good and silent.
* "EI" are less efficient (bigger) but its narrower bandwith may be better for audio as less noise passes from the mains...
* R-core or C-core are said to be the best for audio because they have restricted bandwidth and narrow self radiation pattern.
I have used small R-core and I like them 🙂
Big ones are difficult to obtain.
So, it's a matter of compromises...
I have a 300VA toroid feeding two UCD180 and overall sound and bass impact is OK (fullrange speakers 😎 ).
PS is easy to build (but you wil need soft start probably) so you could try Four Pole caps wich are the most recommended (I wish I had them) and DNM/BHC are UK brands 😉
Cover visible panels of your amp with good looking varnished wood: she'll love it and wood will damp resonances...😎
For signal input obviously: it goes from balanced/single ended connector at rear panel to four pin signal connector (header is it called?)on UCD's module. I believe it has a wire for remote power on included. I guess automatic module power on/off could be done but I don't imagine how 😀
Good luck,
M
You ask all the right questions and M has the right answers. The UG PS are better because of the slit-foil caps. Two PS are better than one (how much better is hard to say...) so your solution with two UG and two 500VA is better than 1200VA and one PS (but not because you would be operating in two channel most of the time, that's not a factor).
Not only Transformer quality are not all the same but their voltage differ!!! The 1200VA from Hypex is absolutely unsuitable for UcD180 because of the high voltage in the secondaries. The secondary voltage is integrated by the capacitors (after rectification by a diode bridge) so you have to multiply by square root of 2 to get the final voltage.
The only transfo suitable for UcD180 in the Hypex lineup is the 160VA, the 500VA is suitable for two UcD400, or three for misc channels if you accept one channel not being DC protected.
I agree that you should not plan to replace the opamp until you get very proficient at soldering, this is very tricky for a beginner and you could damage the board - input cap mods are easy although if you have never soldered you should practice first.
Not only Transformer quality are not all the same but their voltage differ!!! The 1200VA from Hypex is absolutely unsuitable for UcD180 because of the high voltage in the secondaries. The secondary voltage is integrated by the capacitors (after rectification by a diode bridge) so you have to multiply by square root of 2 to get the final voltage.
The only transfo suitable for UcD180 in the Hypex lineup is the 160VA, the 500VA is suitable for two UcD400, or three for misc channels if you accept one channel not being DC protected.
I agree that you should not plan to replace the opamp until you get very proficient at soldering, this is very tricky for a beginner and you could damage the board - input cap mods are easy although if you have never soldered you should practice first.
GuyV & M
Can I pick you up on just one point. Are you saying I shouldn't think of using a 500Va with the HD PS and two 180STs. I thought someone else said the 160Va would be underpowered. I perhaps should add my loudspeakers are B&W 805 stand mounters so I don't need heaps of power.
M
Thanks for the advice. Sadly most of what you said went right over my head. 🙂 One day I'll understand it. looking back at my increasing collection of photos I see where the signal cable fits.
I guess I'll have to think about another way of powering up the amp. my current set up of Cyrus power amp auto sense the signal from the pre amp then switch to standby when no signal is sensed. given theres 4 of them it saves a bit of time.
Now to find a decent enclosure. I'm struggling to find one in the UK.
Ian
Can I pick you up on just one point. Are you saying I shouldn't think of using a 500Va with the HD PS and two 180STs. I thought someone else said the 160Va would be underpowered. I perhaps should add my loudspeakers are B&W 805 stand mounters so I don't need heaps of power.
M
Thanks for the advice. Sadly most of what you said went right over my head. 🙂 One day I'll understand it. looking back at my increasing collection of photos I see where the signal cable fits.
I guess I'll have to think about another way of powering up the amp. my current set up of Cyrus power amp auto sense the signal from the pre amp then switch to standby when no signal is sensed. given theres 4 of them it saves a bit of time.
Now to find a decent enclosure. I'm struggling to find one in the UK.
Ian
Maxlorenz:
You are right, R-core transformers are difficult to find. They were used in some of the Technics amplifiers (new class A and probably class AA). Maybe you can do a little research as to which exact models and then try your luck on ebay ... I used to have a Technics new class A amp some years ago and remember that it had very detail rich sound. Of course, I don't know to which extent this was related to the R-core.
ifw:
I have two monoblocks, each with UcD180-AD, supply-HG and the Hypex TR100A transformer (I think this the 160 VA model). I agree, that this may be a little tight for the rated output power of even a single UcD180. On the other hand, my speakers are old B&W 802, and I'm not sure how similar they are to your B&W 805, but for me, there is more than enough power to play at very high levels.
You may be aware that the supply-HG allows for an idle switch (contact closure) to activate the UcD amp. I don't use this myself, but you should be able to remotely switch on the UcD via a control signal or relay when you switch on your preamp, and let it go back to idle when you switch the preamp off. I would prefer this to a scheme based on music level detection.
Kurt
You are right, R-core transformers are difficult to find. They were used in some of the Technics amplifiers (new class A and probably class AA). Maybe you can do a little research as to which exact models and then try your luck on ebay ... I used to have a Technics new class A amp some years ago and remember that it had very detail rich sound. Of course, I don't know to which extent this was related to the R-core.
ifw:
I have two monoblocks, each with UcD180-AD, supply-HG and the Hypex TR100A transformer (I think this the 160 VA model). I agree, that this may be a little tight for the rated output power of even a single UcD180. On the other hand, my speakers are old B&W 802, and I'm not sure how similar they are to your B&W 805, but for me, there is more than enough power to play at very high levels.
You may be aware that the supply-HG allows for an idle switch (contact closure) to activate the UcD amp. I don't use this myself, but you should be able to remotely switch on the UcD via a control signal or relay when you switch on your preamp, and let it go back to idle when you switch the preamp off. I would prefer this to a scheme based on music level detection.
Kurt
Kurt
I'm not sure my budget will run to a couple of HDs I was hoping to get away with one HD, 2*180ST and a suitable transformer
My 805s are only twin drivers, whereas the 802s are huge beasts.
Hopefully if all goes well I'll go on to building the 5 channel amp, maybe replacing the St for the AD. That'll leave me with
3 * 180ST
2 * 180AD ( maybe modded as my expereince with a iron improves)
2 * HD accepting one won't have DC protection
2 * suitably sized transformers (perhpas 1*160va, 1* 500va
Can some explain this DC protection thing? I currently run a TAg McClaren AV Pre Amp. Will it's specs tell me whether I need protection?
I guess I'll make do with an on off switch in the short term
Ian🙂
I'm not sure my budget will run to a couple of HDs I was hoping to get away with one HD, 2*180ST and a suitable transformer
My 805s are only twin drivers, whereas the 802s are huge beasts.
Hopefully if all goes well I'll go on to building the 5 channel amp, maybe replacing the St for the AD. That'll leave me with
3 * 180ST
2 * 180AD ( maybe modded as my expereince with a iron improves)
2 * HD accepting one won't have DC protection
2 * suitably sized transformers (perhpas 1*160va, 1* 500va
Can some explain this DC protection thing? I currently run a TAg McClaren AV Pre Amp. Will it's specs tell me whether I need protection?
I guess I'll make do with an on off switch in the short term
Ian🙂
500VA is fine but if you use UcD180 you just cannot use the 500VA from Hypex which has +/-42V secondaries that would blow-up the UcD180. As you can see in the hypex.nl webshop the 160VA has +/-31V secondaries which are suitable for the UcD180.
So you have to use a TX that has secondaries appropriate for the amp. The datasheet for the UcD180 gives a range of 30V to 45V and 45V to 63V for the UcD400. If you divide by 1.414 (squareroot of 2) this gives a range of 21V to 32V for the UcD180 transfo and 32 to 45V for the UcD400 transfo.
So for a UcD180 you can use the 160VA but since that would be a bit underpowered for two UcD180 you would have to find a 350VA or 400VA or 450VA or 500VA from a different source but they have to have around 30V or 31V secondaries, I wouldn't go lower than 28V secondaries because you would then loose a lot of the power potential.
The rest of your plan seems OK to me. I run without DC protection. You could place a voltmeter on the output of the preamp and see if there is any DC during silence.
You mean HG as in Power Supply High Grade, right? If stereo operation is your main use you may use a Power Supply ST for the three additional channel, for cost reasons.
Guy
iwf said:
With the Cyrus amps isn't there a seperate phono link cable running between them to sync switch off?
I've just ordered some hypex stuff; two 180ADs, two HG supplies and two 160VA hypex supplied transformers, plus soft start.
I'm having an enclosure constructed by a CAD/CAM machining company owned by my girlfriends father. Hopefully, if possible, we might make it into some kind of limited business; if we can make good cheap cases for the units we think it would be useful.
Guy
I didn't realise how complicated just buying the bits was!
Sorry i did mean HG. So if i go with a single HG then I need the trans with 30 or 31v secondaries, but if I go with two HG or the ST then i'm fine using the 160va. DIYcable sells just a trans. I've tried searching for one in the uk, but i can't find one that has the split rail with 13v for the aux (whatever that is javascript:smilie('😀')
Big Grin)
I suppose if I want to save a few £ then 2*180ST+2*ST PS+2*160 would work and it'd all come from Hypex, or as elecblondie has done the AD, HG and 160.
the cyrus power amp has autosensing as well as the connector, so you can use either. I don't have any other cyrus kit so i use the autosensing
elecblondie, how about we share the costs of your case. your father in law😉 might as well make two why it's at it. I'll happily contribute say £50 to the costs. otherwise I'll have to import something from Italy
Ian😀
I didn't realise how complicated just buying the bits was!
Sorry i did mean HG. So if i go with a single HG then I need the trans with 30 or 31v secondaries, but if I go with two HG or the ST then i'm fine using the 160va. DIYcable sells just a trans. I've tried searching for one in the uk, but i can't find one that has the split rail with 13v for the aux (whatever that is javascript:smilie('😀')
Big Grin)
I suppose if I want to save a few £ then 2*180ST+2*ST PS+2*160 would work and it'd all come from Hypex, or as elecblondie has done the AD, HG and 160.
the cyrus power amp has autosensing as well as the connector, so you can use either. I don't have any other cyrus kit so i use the autosensing
elecblondie, how about we share the costs of your case. your father in law😉 might as well make two why it's at it. I'll happily contribute say £50 to the costs. otherwise I'll have to import something from Italy
Ian😀
Yes you have to buy the right thing, the transfo stuff is explained in some articles but rarely in posts.
You don't need the 13V for the aux unless you make some changes to the UcD to use that - few people do. So you can buy a transfo in the UK as long as it has dual secondaries to create around -31 and +31V.
Note that elecblondie is going with two full monoblocks (one of everything except case) which is the most expensive route, so that is one choice.
The least expensive route is
2*180ST+1*ST PS+1*160 a bit underpowered
then the more usual
2*180ST+1*ST PS+1*300 (or 400) I would call that the normal case
then
2*180ST+1*HG PS+1*300 (or 400) I would call that the good quality case
then other options:
2*180ST+2*ST PS+2*160 monoblocks with the cheap PS. Maybe cheaper than previous, but not as good.
then
2*180ST+2*HG PS+2*160 monoblocks with the High Grade PS.
etc...
You need to build a spreadsheet with the cost of everything and compare options. I would go for the HG PS in preference to going monoblock.
I read an opinion that says you don't need a sofstart unless you go above 500VA or so.
Guy
You don't need the 13V for the aux unless you make some changes to the UcD to use that - few people do. So you can buy a transfo in the UK as long as it has dual secondaries to create around -31 and +31V.
Note that elecblondie is going with two full monoblocks (one of everything except case) which is the most expensive route, so that is one choice.
The least expensive route is
2*180ST+1*ST PS+1*160 a bit underpowered
then the more usual
2*180ST+1*ST PS+1*300 (or 400) I would call that the normal case
then
2*180ST+1*HG PS+1*300 (or 400) I would call that the good quality case
then other options:
2*180ST+2*ST PS+2*160 monoblocks with the cheap PS. Maybe cheaper than previous, but not as good.
then
2*180ST+2*HG PS+2*160 monoblocks with the High Grade PS.
etc...
You need to build a spreadsheet with the cost of everything and compare options. I would go for the HG PS in preference to going monoblock.
I read an opinion that says you don't need a sofstart unless you go above 500VA or so.
Guy
Ah, interesting about the cyrus
I'll have to see what happens with the case, at the moment things are progressing a little slowly as my girlfriend is in hospital and we therefore have altered priorities but since I've now burned out my quad and my repair went wrong I've got to get going fairly quickly.
I'll have to see what happens with the case, at the moment things are progressing a little slowly as my girlfriend is in hospital and we therefore have altered priorities but since I've now burned out my quad and my repair went wrong I've got to get going fairly quickly.
Guy
Thanks very much. I think i'll go the 189St, HG and locally sourced Trans. Good idea about the spreadsheet.
A brief serach got me to Airlink
Is there anything else I should look for in a Transformer? there's some techical info up there that's meaningless to me.
They've both 300 & 500 Va with 30v. I could use a 300 for the two channel and a 500 for the other three or maybe just one 500 for the whole thing.
Ian
Thanks very much. I think i'll go the 189St, HG and locally sourced Trans. Good idea about the spreadsheet.
A brief serach got me to Airlink
Is there anything else I should look for in a Transformer? there's some techical info up there that's meaningless to me.
They've both 300 & 500 Va with 30v. I could use a 300 for the two channel and a 500 for the other three or maybe just one 500 for the whole thing.
Ian
I am not a transfo expert but Airlink sounds nice.
500VA for 5 channels seems a bit tight so an alternative is:
500VA with HG PS for two stereo channel plus one more channel (center?)
300VA with ST PS for two rear channels
I think it is better to have three channels and the better transfo on the HG PS so you have three high quality channels.
I think you understand it now.
Guy
500VA for 5 channels seems a bit tight so an alternative is:
500VA with HG PS for two stereo channel plus one more channel (center?)
300VA with ST PS for two rear channels
I think it is better to have three channels and the better transfo on the HG PS so you have three high quality channels.
I think you understand it now.
Guy
Guy
Yep I think I'm there. Just got to place the order, find a box.
Thanks very, very much for your help. I'll post photo's as the project progresses.
Ian
PS France/Colorado how does that work?🙂
Yep I think I'm there. Just got to place the order, find a box.
Thanks very, very much for your help. I'll post photo's as the project progresses.
Ian
PS France/Colorado how does that work?🙂
has anyone built aux power supply for ucd180?
i am using "hypex st ps" and would like to make clone of aux supply from "hypex hg-ps". it looks very simple, but i don't know what kind of voltage regulators hypex is using. i know, i'm asking this question 3rd time already, it's last time, i don't want to be annoying. i just want to have aux supply as good or better than used in "hypex hg-ps"
i am using "hypex st ps" and would like to make clone of aux supply from "hypex hg-ps". it looks very simple, but i don't know what kind of voltage regulators hypex is using. i know, i'm asking this question 3rd time already, it's last time, i don't want to be annoying. i just want to have aux supply as good or better than used in "hypex hg-ps"
Regarding the aux power supply, at this point I would (will) personally skip that and upgrade the opamp to LM4562 instead. Much less work much better results from what people seem to say - but more delicate soldering.
If you want some info on how to build the aux power supply try to search for "regulated power supply", I think people have discussed such things.
Guy
PS. Ian, Colorado-France? Well I still have a house (and high-end audio stuff) in France and kids in College in Europe but I work in Colorado: the rise of the Euro kills me compared to 5-6 years ago!!!
If you want some info on how to build the aux power supply try to search for "regulated power supply", I think people have discussed such things.
Guy
PS. Ian, Colorado-France? Well I still have a house (and high-end audio stuff) in France and kids in College in Europe but I work in Colorado: the rise of the Euro kills me compared to 5-6 years ago!!!
For aux supply, I will wait 'till Andy plays with his superregulators.
I think that ALWSR(+VBE) directly feeding the opamps would be unbeatable, but not cheap.
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26205
M
I think that ALWSR(+VBE) directly feeding the opamps would be unbeatable, but not cheap.
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26205
M
The bits have arrived
Ok so Santa's come very early and i've received parcels from Hypex and Farnel and am ready to build.
I got 2* 180St, a HG and softstart.
Two questions.
The softstart diagram here shows four leads going to the transformer. However my trans has only two leads, brown and blue.
Bearing in mind I'm 240v do I just connect the brown to the top pin on the output and the blue to the bottem one and ignore the link pins.
Secondly bearing in mind I'm a complete novice can someone suggest a set of tests i can perform before connecting the thing to the mains supply. ( I actually do have a meter!)
thanks in advance.
Ian
Ok so Santa's come very early and i've received parcels from Hypex and Farnel and am ready to build.
I got 2* 180St, a HG and softstart.
Two questions.
The softstart diagram here shows four leads going to the transformer. However my trans has only two leads, brown and blue.
Bearing in mind I'm 240v do I just connect the brown to the top pin on the output and the blue to the bottem one and ignore the link pins.
Secondly bearing in mind I'm a complete novice can someone suggest a set of tests i can perform before connecting the thing to the mains supply. ( I actually do have a meter!)
thanks in advance.
Ian
scratch question 1. As the transformer doesn't have two primary winding I don't need the link terminals. A question of RFM really.
Ian
Ian
Before connecting to the mains you should make sure you have a fuse on the hot 230V side and even better on both wires (unless fuses are already included on your softstart board or elsewhere).
Before connecting the power supply to the UcD you should test that the voltages are what what you want, +, - etc...
Then you should disconnect, empty the condensators in the PS by using two wires going to a desk lamp and connecting them (or touching) for a short while to the 0 and + connectors then to the 0 and - connectors. Then you can connect the UcDs and power up again. Don't ever work on this without discharging the power supply (the UcDs will discharge the PS when they are connected so no worry in that case).
Then before connecting the speakers you should measure the output of the amps to make sure there is no DC component (or negligeable, I forget what values are OK, do a search on this forum). You can test this with the inputs disconnected, inputs shorted, and inputs connected to your preamp with nothing playing.
Some people use cheap loudspeaker drivers when listening for the first time to a new amp, just to make sure they don't blowup their good speakers if something is wrong.
Guy
Before connecting the power supply to the UcD you should test that the voltages are what what you want, +, - etc...
Then you should disconnect, empty the condensators in the PS by using two wires going to a desk lamp and connecting them (or touching) for a short while to the 0 and + connectors then to the 0 and - connectors. Then you can connect the UcDs and power up again. Don't ever work on this without discharging the power supply (the UcDs will discharge the PS when they are connected so no worry in that case).
Then before connecting the speakers you should measure the output of the amps to make sure there is no DC component (or negligeable, I forget what values are OK, do a search on this forum). You can test this with the inputs disconnected, inputs shorted, and inputs connected to your preamp with nothing playing.
Some people use cheap loudspeaker drivers when listening for the first time to a new amp, just to make sure they don't blowup their good speakers if something is wrong.
Guy