I wanted to add this to my previous message as well:
For those in search of a pre-built module I can only say, get a Hypex UCD no matter what! The quality of sound and design is a multiple factor higher than the Connex modules!
For those in search of a pre-built module I can only say, get a Hypex UCD no matter what! The quality of sound and design is a multiple factor higher than the Connex modules!
So you think Hypex is better than 41hz tripath?
Or you just saying that Connex is crap 41hz better?
Or you just saying that Connex is crap 41hz better?
41hz are kits, the quality there is highly determined by the knowledge and skills of the builder. When in doubt about either I would always advise to go for a UCD amplifier unless you want the learning experience.
Comparing complete modules the UCD are certainly a factor higher quality and better design than the Connex modules. But when money is limited and you feel like moddinge I'm sure even a Connex module can be made to satisfactory results. But then I would still prefer to build from scratch.
You know how I feel about a few of the parts on the Connex modules, although I have seen there are TA3020 modules there without rectifier on the board, those look a tad more promising. The other one with rectifier doing 50hz and the inductors touching them I am not that charmed about...
Comparing complete modules the UCD are certainly a factor higher quality and better design than the Connex modules. But when money is limited and you feel like moddinge I'm sure even a Connex module can be made to satisfactory results. But then I would still prefer to build from scratch.
You know how I feel about a few of the parts on the Connex modules, although I have seen there are TA3020 modules there without rectifier on the board, those look a tad more promising. The other one with rectifier doing 50hz and the inductors touching them I am not that charmed about...
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Ok, maybe I should rephrase myself and be a little more specific because I had an email from Cristi that I am hurting his sales...🙁
The hum problems that were experienced by that customer I linked to is most likely not related to the module, but to the implementation by the user.
Remains the BIG turn on thump and heat issue. The heatsink would get so hot that it burned the guy's finger. I read somewhere earlier on here that it would run super cool, so I am keeping that in the middle too...
Cristi offered a refund to any customer with real complaints with the module. That is good service at least!
Only he does seem to keep thinking it is all about the money, which I don't agree with....
The hum problems that were experienced by that customer I linked to is most likely not related to the module, but to the implementation by the user.
Remains the BIG turn on thump and heat issue. The heatsink would get so hot that it burned the guy's finger. I read somewhere earlier on here that it would run super cool, so I am keeping that in the middle too...
Cristi offered a refund to any customer with real complaints with the module. That is good service at least!
Only he does seem to keep thinking it is all about the money, which I don't agree with....
please don't invent stories. you're just making me notorious. actually i sold more since our last rendezvous but if you want, continue.
...
did he used a speaker protection circuit ? or at least the Mute function ? in the TA3020 datasheet, page 18 bottom, 19 top, and in the manual which i wrote for the modules is explained.
how hot is it and what kind of enclosure, supply voltage and BBM settings he used ?
i think will be a good idea to invite the owner of that module here. i prepare for him replacement or refund if the module is faulty
and others too...
tank-you, i appreciate that.
so, maybe i must sell them cheaper. much cheaper than competitors. and even to add few more, probably some kits at minimum price on the market.
i'm waiting opinions from users, if they consider that a TA2022 unassembled kit at 30-35 usd and a TA3020 kit at 50-60 usd are welcome ? about 3 times cheaper than other alternatives and with better quality.
i make my calculation now. let's see what can be.
Unless you are not an skilled SMD solderer i should not buy a kit.
Have built one AMP32-not working.
AMP6 one channel dead, worked for a couple of months when i mounted it with two screws wich bent the card.
It proberly my skills but, i prefer pre-built after that even if i enjoyed the building.
Im pretty sure that with an A-B test with Connex and 41hz you cant hear any difference.
Have built one AMP32-not working.
AMP6 one channel dead, worked for a couple of months when i mounted it with two screws wich bent the card.
It proberly my skills but, i prefer pre-built after that even if i enjoyed the building.
Im pretty sure that with an A-B test with Connex and 41hz you cant hear any difference.
I would perhaps even buy modules from you if they had a bit more supply buffer capacitance, on board speaker relays with the proper timing to prevent thump. A four layer board with ultimate shielding properties and ultra low trace inductances towards the fets perhaps? This is just part of it, I also have some whishes for board terminals at certain locations, a drop in size for a nice casing, I would have many practical ideas design wise... Even though your customers are mainly going for the bargain price, I really am not. For me the real quality is priority number one, low price comes second.
Solve said:
I would be more than willing to try this out! I have noticed the difference in a blind fold test between two 41hz modules, one with minimal buffer capacity (and lower VA rating transformer) and one with double what was necessary. The drooping supply voltage as a consequence of the low capacitance (and low power transformer) worked out really negative for the dynamics. This was more than just audible! It was MAJOR! Even though I was more than sceptical about this at first. Even though the voltage drop was just quite tiny (less than 1Vdc!!)
Even though I may not have the technical knowledge at the level of Cristi. I have built hundreds of amplifiers, not only 41hz. So I may call myself an experience expert.
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you mean like this one ? Connexelectronic
capacitors from 10mF to 18mF or even bigger if someone has them available in 35mm footprint
if money aren't a problem, please send me 800 usd and i will tweak one for you exactly as you wish. till then, i consider this module a good choice.
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Of course i understand you hear difference with differ buffer!
Try same buffer to an AMP15 and Connex TA3020 and i doubt you hear any difference.Im not talking about an "golden ears" person now...
The PS2 is a fine beauty, is it ? You already agreed it was noisy, I can't then imagine how you can sign off on it with your vast experience and expect to save face, let alone, which.
Having looked it up it seems to be a two stage regulator. A DC-DC converter as pre-reg, followed with a second stage linear post reg, no doubt completely amateurishly. Oddly they're both ICs, which seems to be a theme?
That means it's not a pre-reg as you're spinning it, but even if it were, what makes you think noise from it is acceptable? A simple glance at the PCB tells you it's not brilliant. I would saw it in half too, but probably not for the same reasons. You can add three more post regulators if you like, hell, go for ten, it will have the same outcome. Shameful thing to see offered from a company that produces class d products. Is that their best effort? Really? Some beauty, your marketing it here like that is just insulting. It's a $15 product, take it back to the drawing board, it's a cheap lesson.
If they "design" modules that way I wouldn't want them either, but then I guess it's easy when you turn around and say the end results are up to the skill of the user, isn't it? In truth the best they can do is solder by the numbers, and the apex of performance is hard coded ino the PCB and IC.. oh, there's that theme again.
Why do you also keep pitting Cristi against Hypex? He doesn't himself. They aren't remotely comparable, we all know it. There's far more comparable competition to his offerings and those of 41Hz, both in price and performance. Is it perhaps to also place 41Hz into that Hypex league, you know, by proxy?
We can also see he offered a refund if required, but thanks for the narration all the same. I'm not sure what kind of a learning experience you expect someone to get for soldering by numbers either. It's like you're unaware of the kinds of issues that arise for having built something that way. I guess it makes sense to pass off the difficult customers to the competitions though.
You know what makes being a shill obvious? That you've been plugging their products since your first few posts, and that your every "objective" observation never fails to end with an opinion, based on your vast experience, on just what we should be most interested in.
Cheers, -Bro
Having looked it up it seems to be a two stage regulator. A DC-DC converter as pre-reg, followed with a second stage linear post reg, no doubt completely amateurishly. Oddly they're both ICs, which seems to be a theme?
That means it's not a pre-reg as you're spinning it, but even if it were, what makes you think noise from it is acceptable? A simple glance at the PCB tells you it's not brilliant. I would saw it in half too, but probably not for the same reasons. You can add three more post regulators if you like, hell, go for ten, it will have the same outcome. Shameful thing to see offered from a company that produces class d products. Is that their best effort? Really? Some beauty, your marketing it here like that is just insulting. It's a $15 product, take it back to the drawing board, it's a cheap lesson.
If they "design" modules that way I wouldn't want them either, but then I guess it's easy when you turn around and say the end results are up to the skill of the user, isn't it? In truth the best they can do is solder by the numbers, and the apex of performance is hard coded ino the PCB and IC.. oh, there's that theme again.
Why do you also keep pitting Cristi against Hypex? He doesn't himself. They aren't remotely comparable, we all know it. There's far more comparable competition to his offerings and those of 41Hz, both in price and performance. Is it perhaps to also place 41Hz into that Hypex league, you know, by proxy?
We can also see he offered a refund if required, but thanks for the narration all the same. I'm not sure what kind of a learning experience you expect someone to get for soldering by numbers either. It's like you're unaware of the kinds of issues that arise for having built something that way. I guess it makes sense to pass off the difficult customers to the competitions though.
You know what makes being a shill obvious? That you've been plugging their products since your first few posts, and that your every "objective" observation never fails to end with an opinion, based on your vast experience, on just what we should be most interested in.
Cheers, -Bro
Gentlemen, please
If you want a comparison between various amp modules, please make a thread to do it there
If you want a comparison between various amp modules, please make a thread to do it there
Solve, of course you can make everthing around the chip the same and have it sound the same too! The point was that it is not.
Cristi, that amp looks quite nice I must say!! But, as with 41hz AMP15 which I also find impractical due to the profile height of the caps I would myself like to have a larger quantity of lower profile caps. This is just more practical to be able to fit it in a slim casing.
Ltralus, I tested PS2 once and it worked well, it went down a very large voltage drop and stayed cold, based on that experience I thought it worked quite beautiful. 🙂 Even though it may not be silent enough for a 5V regulator for sensitive applications, it is certainly a good solution for applications like a VN10 supply. Some amps like TA2022 and TK2350 have their own built in VN10 switch mode supply which is also not amongst the most silent, but more than adecquate for what it needs to do. If it is not suitable as pre-reg than that's my bad and I apologise for having misunderstood that.
Then from solely soldering by the numbers you don't learn much, but from seeing what the one does better than the other does.
Hypex and Tripath amps not remotely comparable? Well how about they are both class D? They are both supposed to be compact, stay cold and sound pretty good. I see a lot of comparisons! Or is that just me? 😉
Your accusation of me being a shill strikes me most in the heart! I may have gotten some lousy hardware for trying it out, just like you can test a car and give your lousy opinion about it. I liked what I got and shared it here, I have gotten stuff I didn't like as well and would say that just the same. On a forum like this I think I am fully entitled to give an opinion, that's what I did.
Cristi, that amp looks quite nice I must say!! But, as with 41hz AMP15 which I also find impractical due to the profile height of the caps I would myself like to have a larger quantity of lower profile caps. This is just more practical to be able to fit it in a slim casing.
Ltralus, I tested PS2 once and it worked well, it went down a very large voltage drop and stayed cold, based on that experience I thought it worked quite beautiful. 🙂 Even though it may not be silent enough for a 5V regulator for sensitive applications, it is certainly a good solution for applications like a VN10 supply. Some amps like TA2022 and TK2350 have their own built in VN10 switch mode supply which is also not amongst the most silent, but more than adecquate for what it needs to do. If it is not suitable as pre-reg than that's my bad and I apologise for having misunderstood that.
Then from solely soldering by the numbers you don't learn much, but from seeing what the one does better than the other does.
Hypex and Tripath amps not remotely comparable? Well how about they are both class D? They are both supposed to be compact, stay cold and sound pretty good. I see a lot of comparisons! Or is that just me? 😉
Your accusation of me being a shill strikes me most in the heart! I may have gotten some lousy hardware for trying it out, just like you can test a car and give your lousy opinion about it. I liked what I got and shared it here, I have gotten stuff I didn't like as well and would say that just the same. On a forum like this I think I am fully entitled to give an opinion, that's what I did.
i've seen the same remarks and not only on at least 2 other forums, one english forum one dutch forum. now, probably i must explain the reason why i'm using "cheap tantalum caps" instead of the suggested ones.
we can start from here: TPSE476K020R0150 AVX Tantalum Capacitors - Solid SMD
UVZ1C470MDD1TD Nichicon Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors - Leaded
where is a straightforward price comparision of a tantalum cap and a leaded Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitor.
we can also go further by reading the datasheet http://www.avx.com/docs/Catalogs/tps.pdf
now, i have a beginer question: what is the importance of the ESR in this particular application. please take a look at the schematic before making any comments.
the "very hot amp" wasn't solved till now, simply because the owner of the amp cannot describe me exactly the condition where this problem ocure and right now he cannot send me the amp to repair or replace. anyway i keep in touch with him and try to solve the matter.
how many of you still have this problem ? can you post here ? i have some doubts that is a design issue if there aren't a lot of them with this problem (just one till now)
now, to distract someone's attention, we won't compare the extraordinary trupath with crap connex, instead we compare the hypex with connex.
what's more tasty ? tuna or banana ?
i have to admit that it was my mistake from the beginning, and we would not came into this situation if i would listen to your request and send few free evaluation samples for you to test them and probably write a nice review. but i was too greedy (and i haven't changed) to offer free samples to anyone who claim that is an expert in the field and his knowledge and expertise can be a determinant factor on the market. then the next mistake, well, not exactly a mistake, let's say a coincidence, there was someone else who made similar products and is on the market before i came-up. and as i was told, i am just a cheap crap intruder in the market which was built by them and does not accept competitors especially from asian market. i have to dissapoint some of you, i'm not asian, i was born in europe, with european citizainship and passport. but China offers unlimited possibilities for development and producing something which i enjoy.
now i write this because i just received the order for the TA3020amp modules nr. 699 and 700.
let's enjoy listening beatiful Tripath sound, wherever it comes out.
I bought my "sample" of the TA3020 based amp (version 3B) from Connexelectronic. I also got the A1000SMPS and the DA-1.
The TA3020 works great and I have no issues with heat even when trying it with some "difficult loads".
The built quality is pretty good and I recommend this amp based on my own experience.
I have heard good things from the 41Hz products, but have yet to try one. My soldering skills with SMD components have played a part on that.
Cheers!
My ConnexElectronic TA3020 v1 is now one year old and still going strong. Recently, I took it to a friends house (Zog on diyaudio) and we compared it with several amps. It won hands down and he was so impressed that he has just ordered a module from Cristi.
col.
col.
You don't have to explain anything about tantalum caps, it wasn't the theoretical performance I was criticising. 🙄I have had many units fail with those caps in the past. 🙁I used to be a maintenance engineer. I mean commercial units from mainly from Sony, but also Lectrosonics and many more. Probably they are better now.
Ok, I'll bite again...😛 ESR, effective series resistance. Not too important a value, but an ideal capacitor has zero ESR like a wire would have zero resistance. Higher values have a disadvantage of generating heat induced by the current passing through the capacitor. Another disadvantage is the damping effect on the charge/discharge performance. In audio applications ESR is not often a problem, but in applications of high switching frequency and/or high current it can become an issue. Recently there has even been a discussion going on about the down side of the higher resonance frequency with low ESR caps. This would negatively affect the performance in some applications.
This surprises me, the parts that gave high temperature issues with designs I tested are the very parts I see mounted on the board of this particular module.
There are tricks to pull to get it to run cool again, I know, but they are not going to be beneficial to the performance. I have offered the guy here in Holland to evaluate and if neccessary fix the problem in his TA3020 module. I haven't asked him anything in return. He offered himself to do some woodwork for me in return. As a matter of fact he got his hands on the module by swapping it in return for some woodwork. Makes me wonder why the other guy wanted to get rid of it? 🙄I am curious about the module, sure, so just to test the unit for as far as I am capable of I would already be very interested in. 
And trust me if it is a user fault or a defect I will be honest about it. However I do have quite a clear idea of what it is about, but I sure won't want to start the war again. Also before mentioning anything unfounded I would like to be able to put some facts on the table now. And then still it's just one module out of 700 now, others may use other adjustments and parts? There are a bunch of versions.... From the pictures I have seen from his module some part values have been copied straight from the datasheet and were on the limit there already to achieve the absolute max power. His module had resistor values for the voltage sensing conveniently, but dangerously rounded to standard preferred values even more towards possible disaster. This sensing works pretty slow already in the TA3020 chip, with a bit of power supply pumping, especially with the capacitance you have chosen on the module the supply voltage can easily peak to dangerous levels.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I'm surprised you haven't yet had blackened modules returned?! I must admit I haven't done any crash testing myself so far, so maybe I'm being too scared? Have you?I would like to rephrase that metaphore to what drives better a Fiat Panda or a BMW. Both are fine cars for what they cost, but you eventually get what you pay for.
I would only when it deserves it.
From the start it seemed to me that it was rather the money you enjoy than making the best possible amplifier from the Tripath chip.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Really I couldn't care less where you or these modules came from. All I care about is seeing it was made and designed with love, if even technically necessary I would feel more comfortable with something over-designed than designed on the edge. I really find it the saddest thing that it makes people happy that these chips from a bankrupt manufacturer with no future replacement in sight are not used to their fullest but in a budget design. 🙁Makes me even more sad that people are happy with it. 😕 Jep, that really does seem to make you happiest....and still not seeing I really don't give a *****
Wherever it comes out of....obviously....
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obviously you haven't read carefuly the question regarding ESR or you just simply don't understand what's ESR. thx to google or wikipedia there are places where from to copy-paste a definition. i will attach a small part of the schematic where can see how is connected 2 of those 3 caps. some of you will understand what i mean. can you tell me the difference in the sound quality between a cap with 0.3R and one with 0.17R ESR in this particular application ?
i should say or i should let you enjoy saying again about the "ancient" MOS-FET's that i use ? STW34NB20. there is that pdf called datasheet where they recommend them. i haven't chosen them based on the weather report. i'm so happy that you offered to solve that problem, and i am 100% sure that you will be totally onest and impartial, as you were till now. wouldn't you ? nooohhhhh. something tells me different. who cares ? ppls can read between the lines and see on which side are you.This surprises me, the parts that gave high temperature issues with designs I tested are the very parts I see mounted on the board of this particular module.
now which sentence to comment ? the first one or the second one ? i should write what you will love to see ? just because i enjoy money so much i make just batches of 50-100 pcb's and each one has improvements compared to the previous one. each new pcb requires new films and setup cost, even if i just change only one pad or via. just a short list: v1, v2, v2a, v2b, v3a, v3b, v3c and v4 prototype under test now. if what you say is true, then i should have the same identical desin as i had one year ago or more.
sure you don't care, sure you are not affected to see a new board coming from this part of the world. SURE that you don't care that others from here are coming with designs which are not up to your standards. SURE is one for them.....
i love my family, my wife and my son, but i haven't experience that yet with a pcb or something else than a human being. any normal people would feel the same, i think. but if i would not like what i'm doing sure i won't do it. i put passion in my work if this is something which you might wonder, and as a design engineer which i'm curently do this as my main job, to design electronic products, i can make a diference between a good designed product and reliable with all the parts within the specs and a usless overdesigned product with expesive/exotic parts chosen just because the designer couldn't understand the design flow and oversized everything just to have the feeling that will withstand on normal working conditions. or maybe just because using bigger/expensive components where they are not needed might make some to believe that is just an extraordinary piece of work. and funny, sometimes, those expensive exotic components has just worst effect than normal ones. see the huge size exotic input capacitors in class D or T examples.
as you said, the datasheet is useless since provide wrong informations and we should ignore it when we use to design something. on my modules the OVP will shut-down the amp at 62-63V and will restart at 60-61V. there are still few volts till 70V which is the ic maximum voltage. i have done "crash-tests" that's why i know what i'm talking about, i already test the maximum limit of few ic's to see if is really 70V when the ic will die. and was just a bit over, 73V. no wonder that this values are called absolute maximum guaranteed values.
it becomes so funny, you said that you haven't done that test but you are so enthusiast to talk about that. is just one more aspect which we should discuse and emphasis around even if some of us have no idea what we are talking about ? or what's the reason to make afirmations which has no theoretical support behind or barely have some idea about ?
now that you mention about that, what is the maximum power which can be achieved from TA3020 amplifier ? i designed and tested the amplifiers for a maximum output power of 300W. if you just calculate you will see that is perfect achievable with the given supply voltage. next, i wonder how could some get 2x900W at 2R with TA3020 amp (AMP7) supplied at +-60V. SQRT(2)*SQRT(900*2)=42.42*1.4142=59.98. RIGHT. i understand how. using ideal transistors with zero rDS-ON, 100% modulation index, perfect output inductor with zero AC and DC resistance and perfectly regulated supply rails, +-60V.
if my math is wrong, then is not even PMPO but some advertising power based on the fact that most of the users have no equipment to measure the real output power. probalbly the maximum output power will be something like 500W at 2R for that supply voltage, just in case you don't want to listen square waves. doesn't matter, they pay for 900W and get 500W, perfect deal. but you still pushing that amplifier on the market with more or less hidden advertisment. if you measured 900W at 2R on that amp then using the same test bench you should get 500W at 4R from any of my amps or >1000W at 2R. that's only if you haven't calibrated the instruments till then.
i will add a coment because i anticipate your next bluff. i mean observation. don't bother to start saying that the pcb is $hit just because is not a 4 layers pcb as you like. i can show you that i am able to design a better 2 layer pcb than you can design a 4 layers one. i'm doing this quite often. and some of them have over 1000 components on them. in some cases i even can make a single layer one where is required at least 2 layers and still have at least the same performance as a good 2 layers pcb. just one example: Connexelectronic
thanks for your best wishes, but i watch myself where i'm stepping....Wherever it comes out of....obviously....
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Listen, the guys testing cars dont necessarily need to be able to design one to know if it is good.
P.S. I wrote that bit on ESR myself.
About ancient mosfets, when ever it pleases you you say the datasheet is full of nonsense, yet you are using the amplifiers core parts straight from the datasheets?!
Then making new rev. boards isnt proof of the intention to improve them, rather proof of the first ones being not satisfactory. I remember several versions ago I could not criticize your module because it would be so perfect.
My Colleagues are design engineers, one of them was even involved in the invention of the CD. I know that people in the business think by the numbers and any part that can be changed or removed is profit, don't deny you are mainly designing your modules for profit. It may be poorly described by me to call it love, but it sure isn't hobbyism.
About the crash testing, it was another guy with better facilities than I who has done that and knows the exact point where it goes wrong. From his information I can guarantee that the over voltage point you have chosen is dangerous. You just haven't tested it well. What you need to do is provide a transient voltage peak (which is what will happen in real life with PS pumping). You'll notice the TA3020 is slow. What you did is calculate the static values and raised the voltage slowly on a lab supply.
And again, I personally don't push amplifiers on the market and I am glad I am not. I am not the guy advertising ridiculous power either, neither do I design class T amplifier PCB's. I'm just the test driver with good soldering skills and tools who confirms if stuff is working or not. Helmet on and GO!
P.S. I wrote that bit on ESR myself.
About ancient mosfets, when ever it pleases you you say the datasheet is full of nonsense, yet you are using the amplifiers core parts straight from the datasheets?!
Then making new rev. boards isnt proof of the intention to improve them, rather proof of the first ones being not satisfactory. I remember several versions ago I could not criticize your module because it would be so perfect.
My Colleagues are design engineers, one of them was even involved in the invention of the CD. I know that people in the business think by the numbers and any part that can be changed or removed is profit, don't deny you are mainly designing your modules for profit. It may be poorly described by me to call it love, but it sure isn't hobbyism.
About the crash testing, it was another guy with better facilities than I who has done that and knows the exact point where it goes wrong. From his information I can guarantee that the over voltage point you have chosen is dangerous. You just haven't tested it well. What you need to do is provide a transient voltage peak (which is what will happen in real life with PS pumping). You'll notice the TA3020 is slow. What you did is calculate the static values and raised the voltage slowly on a lab supply.
And again, I personally don't push amplifiers on the market and I am glad I am not. I am not the guy advertising ridiculous power either, neither do I design class T amplifier PCB's. I'm just the test driver with good soldering skills and tools who confirms if stuff is working or not. Helmet on and GO!
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