The question is, not what do they measure like. But what do they sound like & the sound very, very good according to the audio press. There have ben 6 arms manufactured over the last few years speced to be set up with Under-Hang. All of the many press write ups are very positive.
Myself I have trued it with my arm using a 103CLII cart & to my ears I considered in several aspects there was an improvement. I have done a smaller listening test with my Ort cart that has a boron cantilever & Shibata stylus. Again the results were very positive.
AS I SAID EARLIER, DON'T KNOCK IT UNTIL YOU HAVE TRIED IT.
Cheers
Myself I have trued it with my arm using a 103CLII cart & to my ears I considered in several aspects there was an improvement. I have done a smaller listening test with my Ort cart that has a boron cantilever & Shibata stylus. Again the results were very positive.
AS I SAID EARLIER, DON'T KNOCK IT UNTIL YOU HAVE TRIED IT.
Cheers
Hi, After some extended trials I have refined the Under-Hang chart & added a minimum & maximum measurement. Set at near the minium measurement for my arm I now hear no distortion on any LP's. It will pay (if you hear slight distortion as a hardness) to move your arm slightly in the suggested window.
Cheers
Cheers
Attachments
Hi, Well I have been doing so more work on this & getting some very impressive results. I also have just drawn up a alignment template which can be dounloaded. It is in .pdf form & you will nee to adjust the printer page size to get the correct measurements, mine is a 100.1% enlargement, but other printers of course will be different.
Since LP playback, regardless of whether one wants to admit it or not, contains much that is very hard to explain, I agree one needs to try things before throwing an idea away.
I have been wanting to try this just so I could hear it for myself so I appreciate the work you have done.
In my experience dirty records are more damaging to the record and stylus than imprecise stylus alignment. And I am sure most of you have found that even with the most expensive tools one must still fiddle around with the cartridge to get the best sound.
I think of Allen Wright's protractor from his guru that had the stylus setback from the "correct" line 4 or 5 mm. Many found this to be an improvement but it could have been a bandaid for other aspects of the installation?
It has been, at least, six weeks since you made this change and I would think that is good amount of time to discover whether it works well. If not it would have driven you crazy by now and you would have returned to the tried and true.
Just think if this kind of thinking applied to fighter aircraft the militaries of the world would still be flying the likes of P51s. Not that that would be a bad thing but sometimes one has to try things that don't make "empirical" sense. This is a far safer way to try unconventional ideas.
I have been wanting to try this just so I could hear it for myself so I appreciate the work you have done.
In my experience dirty records are more damaging to the record and stylus than imprecise stylus alignment. And I am sure most of you have found that even with the most expensive tools one must still fiddle around with the cartridge to get the best sound.
I think of Allen Wright's protractor from his guru that had the stylus setback from the "correct" line 4 or 5 mm. Many found this to be an improvement but it could have been a bandaid for other aspects of the installation?
It has been, at least, six weeks since you made this change and I would think that is good amount of time to discover whether it works well. If not it would have driven you crazy by now and you would have returned to the tried and true.
Just think if this kind of thinking applied to fighter aircraft the militaries of the world would still be flying the likes of P51s. Not that that would be a bad thing but sometimes one has to try things that don't make "empirical" sense. This is a far safer way to try unconventional ideas.
You wouldn't need antiskate compensation for the centrepoint where the arc of the tonearm is exactly half way (geometrically tangential) between the intersecting points. This is how I find my outer lying intersecting tracking points and optimize the overhang to my arm setup.
I use a KAB fluid damper which helps alot with reducing the sharp dynamic skate forces which fluctuate greatly as the record plays. I noticed the technics 1200 antiskate mechanism uses a spring which attempts to follow this null point of antiskate force compensation so that the centre of the swept arc nulls the compensation forces.
I can't see any logical evidence that an underhung cartridge setup would negate the need for antiskating. I just don't see how this would be beneficial if the tracking error itself is worsened (which it would be if the arm isn't setup to intersect the usual 2 points in the arc).
I use a KAB fluid damper which helps alot with reducing the sharp dynamic skate forces which fluctuate greatly as the record plays. I noticed the technics 1200 antiskate mechanism uses a spring which attempts to follow this null point of antiskate force compensation so that the centre of the swept arc nulls the compensation forces.
I can't see any logical evidence that an underhung cartridge setup would negate the need for antiskating. I just don't see how this would be beneficial if the tracking error itself is worsened (which it would be if the arm isn't setup to intersect the usual 2 points in the arc).
Hi, two answer your questions
@profiguy, There are 7 commercial arms currently being sold with this algnment & no anti skating. These have been designed & tested by people far more qualified that you 7a me.
The Yammy 5000 with Under-Hang arm was awarded T/T of the year by What Hi-Fi.
One reviewer who tested their RS under-Hang arm advised although it was a pain to set up, it sounded better than a $10,000 Brickman arm he had to compare it to. Not of the many reviewers who has reviewed these arms have complained about not having anti skating.
I have now trialed 7 different cart & all tracked perfectly without any distortion at all.
@rickmcinnis
Late last week I received an upgraded 103 back from Chris at All Clear Audio (no affiliation), I had a Boron cant fitted & nude fine Conical & at the weekend I mounted it on my arm & set it to U/H. Overall it is not as good as my MC25 with Boron & Shibata, but I did not expect it to be. However it beats that cart in several area, while still being a cart that makes my stop what I am browsing & just listen.
PLUS - The areas where it betters the Ortofon are
DOWNSIDE
- There is not the top end sparkle that I normally hear, but I also consider the Ort with the stylus upgrade a little over the top in this area.
So overall I would say it shows, as it should, that the cart used has quite an influence on the subjective performance, And that of course is exactly the same for every cart set up in any system. Soundstage width & Breadth are comparable & again with my arm there is no shifting off position and the performance is consistent across the LP.
Now this alignment is not a fix for a unmusical cart or bad arm. The cart & arm you already use must be making good music already. If it is not Under-hang will not fix it, there are other problems that would need to be addressed.
I have tried a Ortofon SPU GE set up in the Under-Hang position & my normal Lof B alignment. I was not impressed with either positions. However I have been told that I need a AUT set at 10 ohms to make that cart sing and & do not have one yet.
It is a little like the upgrade you would get from buying a new better cart that the one you already have. The figure I would put on it is like a $1500 upgrade, which is pretty significant. However again everything else must be top notch to achieve this type of sound improvement.
Cheers
@profiguy, There are 7 commercial arms currently being sold with this algnment & no anti skating. These have been designed & tested by people far more qualified that you 7a me.
The Yammy 5000 with Under-Hang arm was awarded T/T of the year by What Hi-Fi.
One reviewer who tested their RS under-Hang arm advised although it was a pain to set up, it sounded better than a $10,000 Brickman arm he had to compare it to. Not of the many reviewers who has reviewed these arms have complained about not having anti skating.
I have now trialed 7 different cart & all tracked perfectly without any distortion at all.
@rickmcinnis
Late last week I received an upgraded 103 back from Chris at All Clear Audio (no affiliation), I had a Boron cant fitted & nude fine Conical & at the weekend I mounted it on my arm & set it to U/H. Overall it is not as good as my MC25 with Boron & Shibata, but I did not expect it to be. However it beats that cart in several area, while still being a cart that makes my stop what I am browsing & just listen.
PLUS - The areas where it betters the Ortofon are
- Bass depth & impact. Playing Tcjk Manfred Sym, for the 1st time I heard the organ produced with nearly the fullness that I hear in my choirs church hall.
- I am hearing subtle more information that I have not heard before on very well known LP's
- The blackness between grooves is quite notable, a lot lower than from any cart I have heard before, expect perhaps the AT33 mono.
- 2 HOT LP's I had when using my Ortofon cart are now not hot, but join the Ref class LP's in my collection.
DOWNSIDE
- There is not the top end sparkle that I normally hear, but I also consider the Ort with the stylus upgrade a little over the top in this area.
So overall I would say it shows, as it should, that the cart used has quite an influence on the subjective performance, And that of course is exactly the same for every cart set up in any system. Soundstage width & Breadth are comparable & again with my arm there is no shifting off position and the performance is consistent across the LP.
Now this alignment is not a fix for a unmusical cart or bad arm. The cart & arm you already use must be making good music already. If it is not Under-hang will not fix it, there are other problems that would need to be addressed.
I have tried a Ortofon SPU GE set up in the Under-Hang position & my normal Lof B alignment. I was not impressed with either positions. However I have been told that I need a AUT set at 10 ohms to make that cart sing and & do not have one yet.
It is a little like the upgrade you would get from buying a new better cart that the one you already have. The figure I would put on it is like a $1500 upgrade, which is pretty significant. However again everything else must be top notch to achieve this type of sound improvement.
Cheers
It doesn't mean their arms don't skate if they don't add an anti-skating device.
Hi it is not possible for a arm to skate without it affecting playback. Since play back is not affected then skating is not an issue. There have been multple reviewers & hundred, maybe thousands of users now using this alignment. Nowhere in the reviews or online searches is there any complaint about anti-skating problems. It's a none issue, like anti-skating is a none issue with 12'' arms & longer.
Don't forget there are standard arm that don't use anti-skating & have had fabulous reviews. VPI & the Temaad I am using. Mine is a 12'', which obviosity helps, but the VPI's sold were 9.5'' to 12''. I had a 9.5'' a while ago, not problems with skating, just did not like the arm, that's why I changed to the better sounding Temaad. The great thing with that arm is the head-shell design allows it to accommodate both Under-Arm & regular alignment,\. I always used to use Lof B as it has the lowest distortion curve.
Cheers
Don't forget there are standard arm that don't use anti-skating & have had fabulous reviews. VPI & the Temaad I am using. Mine is a 12'', which obviosity helps, but the VPI's sold were 9.5'' to 12''. I had a 9.5'' a while ago, not problems with skating, just did not like the arm, that's why I changed to the better sounding Temaad. The great thing with that arm is the head-shell design allows it to accommodate both Under-Arm & regular alignment,\. I always used to use Lof B as it has the lowest distortion curve.
Cheers
If an arm with an underhang sounds better than an arm with an overhang to YOUR EAR, by all means, just use it. I am not going to argue with you. Good sounding is purely a subjective matter. But sounding good can't be used to reason that an arm doesn't skate.
All pivot arms skate with an overhang or with an underhang.
Hi,
CHEERS
- Well no, it not just that. On other forums there are several members who have reported the same, several have report no noticeable gain in S/Q. Until you try you will never know. However do not forget all the commercial arms using U/Hang, all their sales, which for the time U/Hang has been out (I think nearly 7 years now) will amount to 1,000's of arms being produced. No negative feedback on the net. Also the many audio reviewers, again all positive to glowing reports. That's a lot of people. so as I said earlier in this blog. YOU WILL NOT KNOW UNTIL YOU TRY.
- I do not disagree that all arms will skate to a degree. 12'' conventual arm less that 9'' arm & U/Hang alignment less that 12'' arms. The problem is you guys are ignoring the the adverse S/Q influence of the anti-skating mechanism.
CHEERS
In my opinion, 12" arms do need anti-skating. So are the arms with an underhang. Any pivot arm without anti-skating is because 1, the manufactory believes the wrong theory, such as old VPI. They added anti-skating on their tonearms quietly without admitting it. 2, Special purpose tonearms such as DJ tonearms with underhangs.
Is the skating force smaller on underhang arms than the skating force on regular pivot arms? Yes. I don't disagree with you. However, further study is needed.
DNic - I am using a 12 inches Pete Riggle arm which I have played around with, it is not as Pete shipped it, more mass, and the Transfiguration Proteus cartridge.
One would think, without actually trying this, that a conical tip would be more amenable to this alignment than the more exotic shapes but I know other shapes have been used and there were no reports of people running out of the room with their hands covering their ears.
As you say, one never knows much of anything if they do not try. I am in the midst of playing around with digital playback at the moment but I am going to give this a try soon. I never have both systems running concurrently.
As far as the skating goes - if one hears an improvement while using anti-skate then I guess it is needed - if it harms the sound then the conclusion is obvious. The Riggle arm makes it easy to add anti-skate bias and one can add it in tiny doses.
Take care,
One would think, without actually trying this, that a conical tip would be more amenable to this alignment than the more exotic shapes but I know other shapes have been used and there were no reports of people running out of the room with their hands covering their ears.
As you say, one never knows much of anything if they do not try. I am in the midst of playing around with digital playback at the moment but I am going to give this a try soon. I never have both systems running concurrently.
As far as the skating goes - if one hears an improvement while using anti-skate then I guess it is needed - if it harms the sound then the conclusion is obvious. The Riggle arm makes it easy to add anti-skate bias and one can add it in tiny doses.
Take care,
Hi,
- Theoretically yes, but practically no, when anti skating is applies the S/Q is diminished. Also a good 12'' like my Temaad will run though the anti-skating tests with no problem on a test disc, I know because I have tried it.
-If you refer back to the Thales Skating study as shown earlier, You will see that the stylus see see force on one side as it first plays the LP & the as it passes it's nul point that force is transferred to the other side of the stylus. So if you apply a normal anti-skating to the beginning of the LP, in the 2nd half of the LP it will apply am unacceptable amount of force, good luck with that. But if you are lucky enough to have the woody arm, then that arm certainly could easily be used with under-hang alignment.
Cheers
- Theoretically yes, but practically no, when anti skating is applies the S/Q is diminished. Also a good 12'' like my Temaad will run though the anti-skating tests with no problem on a test disc, I know because I have tried it.
-If you refer back to the Thales Skating study as shown earlier, You will see that the stylus see see force on one side as it first plays the LP & the as it passes it's nul point that force is transferred to the other side of the stylus. So if you apply a normal anti-skating to the beginning of the LP, in the 2nd half of the LP it will apply am unacceptable amount of force, good luck with that. But if you are lucky enough to have the woody arm, then that arm certainly could easily be used with under-hang alignment.
Cheers
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" Theoretically yes, but practically no, when anti skating is applies the S/Q is diminished. "
This categorical statement is simply false, despite all the problems and complications of anti-skating.
This categorical statement is simply false, despite all the problems and complications of anti-skating.
Hi
-Well in my experience it is true, but I am talking about a 12'' arm. Any arm 7'' to 10'' arm played with standard alignment, yes will play & sound better with anti-slating. But that is not what VPI thought with it's Uni-Pivot arms. They happily sold the arm without anti-skating for years.
- Did not answer the prefers stylus shape question earlier. I have played conical, Elliptical, Shibata & M/Line carts over the last few months & all performed & sounded fantastic, with the exception of the SPU GE, which tracked no problem, with no distortion. But S/Q was not as good as expected, however I have been advised I need to load the cart at 10ohms, to get it to sound correct, this I cannot do at present.
Cheers
-Well in my experience it is true, but I am talking about a 12'' arm. Any arm 7'' to 10'' arm played with standard alignment, yes will play & sound better with anti-slating. But that is not what VPI thought with it's Uni-Pivot arms. They happily sold the arm without anti-skating for years.
- Did not answer the prefers stylus shape question earlier. I have played conical, Elliptical, Shibata & M/Line carts over the last few months & all performed & sounded fantastic, with the exception of the SPU GE, which tracked no problem, with no distortion. But S/Q was not as good as expected, however I have been advised I need to load the cart at 10ohms, to get it to sound correct, this I cannot do at present.
Cheers
Evening all, I was going to ask this question on another thread - but I can’t find it - and as it concerns antiskating here goes:
If a pivoted straight tonearm no cartridge offset playing a blank record did not skate at any position on the record would it follow that the tracking alignment was perfect?
Of course the arm would need some linkage or moving pivot but this is more a theoretical question.
Cheers, sp
If a pivoted straight tonearm no cartridge offset playing a blank record did not skate at any position on the record would it follow that the tracking alignment was perfect?
Of course the arm would need some linkage or moving pivot but this is more a theoretical question.
Cheers, sp
No, As you have centrifugal force to contend with, so the arm would naturally swing outwards. With under-hang alignment the arm has a outward force until the mid point of the LP, then for the remaining it has an inward force. That's why I use a 12'' arm, which helps to nullify both forces when LP are played.
Cheers
Cheers
Oh boy, this is going to age me, but I do remember that my very first record player (I was maybe 5) had a steel needle, and if it mistracked the arm quickly swung out to the outer edge of the record. Of course, I also remember putting little army men on the platter and they also were hurled. I really don't remember any 'favorite recording' back then.