Oh god, a biiiiiig rabbit hole is opening...
I will say one thing: conventional measurements of harmonic distortion will not correlate with what your ears tell your brain. Any cheap cap will have VERY low harmonic distortion. If you hear differences between caps, it must be something else than harmonic distortion. I have no clue what this might be.
I wasn’t suggesting those speakers, only make a point in what I mean for useful data for choosing a speaker design.
If you want respectable 3-way design:
http://zaphaudio.com/SB12.3/
https://heissmann-acoustics.de/en/dxt-wave/
There are others, of course, but not the Troels ones.
Ralf
So I must deduce that you have listened to all Troels cabinets and that you have even compared them to the designs you enclose? (your favorites, ok, but they're not the Holy Grail either).
It seems to me that it is a reckless and disqualifying claim of Troels cabinets totally biased, and I would say the same if I had not built one.
Ask:
According to what you claim, all the answers from the builders on the Troels page just so as not to be disappointed if they were telling the truth? Do you fantasize about the sound achieved? Do they lie to look good with Troels and chew their anger because it is not the sound they were looking for? See that there are many responses from people who can be seen to understand quite a bit about the subject.
It seems to me that it is a reckless and disqualifying claim of Troels cabinets totally biased, and I would say the same if I had not built one.
Ask:
According to what you claim, all the answers from the builders on the Troels page just so as not to be disappointed if they were telling the truth? Do you fantasize about the sound achieved? Do they lie to look good with Troels and chew their anger because it is not the sound they were looking for? See that there are many responses from people who can be seen to understand quite a bit about the subject.
There is only so much that can be done to affect the inherent directivity of the drivers through the crossover region. A tweeter with a large dished face plate crossing to a 5" driver is a reasonable match for a non waveguided or faceted baffle design. The tweeter does not have much low end so it will be crossed higher than an ideal directivity match would dictate. A hole in the power response is not necessarily a bad thing, certainly much better than a peak. The potential hole from drivers of this size being crossed together is not hugely concerning.
Have a read of an old Lipshitz and Vanderkooy study
https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=11454
I am not trying to argue against your position only to point out a design that I think has the least potential for the problems you point out. Given that the OP has stated he intends to build a Troels design why not pick the lesser of the evils?
You are preaching to the converted
Why dont you conduct your study and have your data to disprove his??? I find it funny how a person put in a ton of work and have several data to show but still got discredited by someone who make the opposite claim without any data to back it up (just adding the key word “could be” and then you can add whatever bs you want haha). I dont mean to attack you but I hope you see the paradox in your own post.
Relating your point about vertical diffraction, intuitively I can see the step baffle impacts the off axis response toward the floor so if you listen to music while laying then yes, it “could be” bad. But horizontally and above the tweeter point, I dont see how the response is impacted. This is an acceptable compromise in my book. For his SB12, Zaph also shows data that the tweet and mid response is ragged due to the box but thats what you have to accept if you want a simple box. Perfect flawless design only exists in forum arguments, not in real life.
Dan, to your OP, I just completed Troel's Faital 3WC and have the parts to build the Ekta mk2 which I'll be starting soon.
Unlike you, I lack woodworking ability and that cost me be quite a bit. I initially had a local shop make a CNC flat-pak for the Faital, but it was simply not cut properly and the cabinet was not satisfactory to me. Even though this is DIY, I want the aesthetic appeal of a retail product and so had the cabinets professionally made.
For both the Ekta and Faital, I chose the "Level 2" cheaper option, since I too don't think the more expensive caps would make an audible difference and the "standard" ones are likely more than enough. In addition, I've found that the prices from Janzten are very good (atleast when I bought the kits 1-2 years ago), and significantly cheaper than buying from Madisound, Parts Express or any other shop that sells Janzten caps and the related drivers. The ScanSpeak drivers were almost half the price from Janzten than what they retail for in the US.
I will be starting the Ekta mk2 soon. I chose it because I was interested to hear a design with ScanSpeak Illuminator drivers, and a retail speaker that uses those drivers would cost atleast 3x the cost.
For the cost of either the Faital or Ekta, I would be able to purchase a second hand ProAc, Focal or Kef floorstander. I believe the DIY build is far superior in the cabinet, with regards to damping, bracing and material. I've owned a few of those in the past and I think the value for money is very low. The ProAc Tablette, for example, was made out of MDF, with both drivers costing less than 100$, and about $20 in parts in the crossover, with a retail price tag of $2k.
Reading through this thread w.r.t comments on TG's designs is a bit discouraging, that said, the Faital 3WC sounds very good, one of the best speaker I've had in my dedicated listening room which is treated with GIK acoustics room treatments.
Unlike you, I lack woodworking ability and that cost me be quite a bit. I initially had a local shop make a CNC flat-pak for the Faital, but it was simply not cut properly and the cabinet was not satisfactory to me. Even though this is DIY, I want the aesthetic appeal of a retail product and so had the cabinets professionally made.
For both the Ekta and Faital, I chose the "Level 2" cheaper option, since I too don't think the more expensive caps would make an audible difference and the "standard" ones are likely more than enough. In addition, I've found that the prices from Janzten are very good (atleast when I bought the kits 1-2 years ago), and significantly cheaper than buying from Madisound, Parts Express or any other shop that sells Janzten caps and the related drivers. The ScanSpeak drivers were almost half the price from Janzten than what they retail for in the US.
I will be starting the Ekta mk2 soon. I chose it because I was interested to hear a design with ScanSpeak Illuminator drivers, and a retail speaker that uses those drivers would cost atleast 3x the cost.
For the cost of either the Faital or Ekta, I would be able to purchase a second hand ProAc, Focal or Kef floorstander. I believe the DIY build is far superior in the cabinet, with regards to damping, bracing and material. I've owned a few of those in the past and I think the value for money is very low. The ProAc Tablette, for example, was made out of MDF, with both drivers costing less than 100$, and about $20 in parts in the crossover, with a retail price tag of $2k.
Reading through this thread w.r.t comments on TG's designs is a bit discouraging, that said, the Faital 3WC sounds very good, one of the best speaker I've had in my dedicated listening room which is treated with GIK acoustics room treatments.
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I'm not saying that the Troels designs are bad, just they aren't a reference (read the full thread here for other comments), there are better designs out there. There can be many reasons to be satisfied by a Troels build, coming from inherently inferior speakers for example, or by the lack of comparison, or simply by being proud of the build. The Troels page is owned by Troels, do you really think that someone not satisfied by one of his designs can share the unsatisfactory experience on his pages???
Ralf
Ralf You have to understand that many of Troels's designs are his versions of loved, special and/or great-sounding speakers of the past. Its hardly possible to make a speaker that looks like for example JBL L100 and have it show perfect directivity patern.
Im all for designing with newest knowledge of directivity and using relevant measurements as tools to get sublime or just desired performance. -Still we have to remember that great speakers were build many years before er had such knowledge and pisibilities. Now those tools are easily in reach even for relatively poor people.
Troels is not trying to beat records when designing and building. If so, he would probably just reccomend a few of his builds for various applikations.
That would be boring for him and us I think.
Cheers!
Im all for designing with newest knowledge of directivity and using relevant measurements as tools to get sublime or just desired performance. -Still we have to remember that great speakers were build many years before er had such knowledge and pisibilities. Now those tools are easily in reach even for relatively poor people.
Troels is not trying to beat records when designing and building. If so, he would probably just reccomend a few of his builds for various applikations.
That would be boring for him and us I think.
Cheers!
Why do you think so? The OSMC is not too bad when it comes to dispersion (although it may not fit your definition of "perfect").
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Yes, I do, I think that all those who wrote their opinions cannot be so stupid, some exceptions, of course, there may be.
Some builders mention things they were not satisfied with, myself among them. Usually all those details were problems of the room and / or the placement of the speakers within it.
And yes, I have read the whole thread, but I am sure that you have not read all the constructors' responses, as I have.
I have been a regular follower of your page since I "discovered" it.
But once again, it seems that it is not understood that the measurements do not say everything, that there is no exact correlation between them and what you perceive.
If so, everyone would buy their speakers according to the graphs, and no one would go to a sales room to listen, or to a friend's house, or participate in listening meetings.
If you want to know what happened to my construction, I will gladly relate it, now is not the time, I am really busy.
Would be plenty good for me😊, but looks quite different doesnt it? I followed OSMC, and as I recall, it uses waveguides? I guess l100 was a bad example, since any bookshelf could be disguised using their cool looking foam fronts
Cheers!
quite funny you know Nelson Pass design are relate to harmonic profile......is all relate THD
caps are microphonic too, is R L and C vary with frequency ....
yes I ears caps and resistor in amp and speakers as a lot here
cheap caps are made with micron vapor metallized alu , do you think that can work the same like this ??
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I may be a little late to this forum, but figured I'd leave my experience here.
I built his ScanSpeak Discovery-3Way MkII. I had about $1000 to spend, and was also deciding between DIY and buying a used pair of good speakers. I have very little woodworking experience, but they came out great -- sound aside, they are a fun conversation piece, and it's so much more satisfying to build something than to find it on craigslist.
Not ever having a pair of high end speakers before, I really wish I could put them side by side with a pair of really good speakers to see if they are truly better. My one piece of comparison: I put them side to side with Klipsch RB-5 Speakers, which were an $800 pair back in 1999, and Troel's design blew them out of the water. They sound WAY better. I may be comparing apples and oranges, but that subjective opinion is my one comparison.
I built his ScanSpeak Discovery-3Way MkII. I had about $1000 to spend, and was also deciding between DIY and buying a used pair of good speakers. I have very little woodworking experience, but they came out great -- sound aside, they are a fun conversation piece, and it's so much more satisfying to build something than to find it on craigslist.
Not ever having a pair of high end speakers before, I really wish I could put them side by side with a pair of really good speakers to see if they are truly better. My one piece of comparison: I put them side to side with Klipsch RB-5 Speakers, which were an $800 pair back in 1999, and Troel's design blew them out of the water. They sound WAY better. I may be comparing apples and oranges, but that subjective opinion is my one comparison.
Nice job !
RB - 5 has good reviews according to Klipsch, which doesn't mean much.....
https://www.klipsch.com/products/rb-5-bookshelf-speaker
It is not strange that your work sounds much better, because, as you say, you have to compare pears with pears and apples with apples.
But, even the trend several years ago is to replace the conventional 3-way cabinet with a 2 1/2-way column design. It takes up less space (better WAF) and saves the manufacturer a dedicated midrange driver. So forget the comparisons and enjoy your work !
RB - 5 has good reviews according to Klipsch, which doesn't mean much.....
https://www.klipsch.com/products/rb-5-bookshelf-speaker
It is not strange that your work sounds much better, because, as you say, you have to compare pears with pears and apples with apples.
But, even the trend several years ago is to replace the conventional 3-way cabinet with a 2 1/2-way column design. It takes up less space (better WAF) and saves the manufacturer a dedicated midrange driver. So forget the comparisons and enjoy your work !
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I'm a DIYer at heart and an accomplished woodworker so I've decide that sometime in the near future I'm going to build one of Troels designs.
As far as I know now I'm going to start with the http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-25-mkII.htm
Regards,
Dan
As far as I know now I'm going to start with the http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-25-mkII.htm
Regards,
Dan
Dan, these two statements seem at odds with themselves. Surely as a diy-er at the core, resale value is not a priority?
Jan