Noise in digital circuits
HI JP, now vision this: logic high = 3.5V to 5V; logic low= 0 to 1V for HC family. So how can even a 10mV of noise riding the signal be of influence? And that is of LOT of noise! See Horowitz page 475. 🙄
jean-paul said:
HI JP, now vision this: logic high = 3.5V to 5V; logic low= 0 to 1V for HC family. So how can even a 10mV of noise riding the signal be of influence? And that is of LOT of noise! See Horowitz page 475. 🙄
I wonder if a decision about this, at a certain level of knowledge, might have an effect that could be seen at certain time, if looking in the right domain?
Re: Noise in digital circuits
You are the guy who always suggests to install a decent clock if somebody asks for mods of his CDP 😕
It can't be true somebody who claims to have on of the best clocks, asks such question.
If you have 10mVpp noise, this is 1/200 = 0,5% of the average 2V switching point.
As noise is a random signal that is present at any time including the logic switching point, ( on the rising or falling edge of the signal ), the gate may switch on 2,005V or 1,995V.
Or somewhere between. Where exactly is totally uncertain.
And as it always switches at different points, thanks to the noise 😀 it introduces error in the time domain and -
- you get jitter.
P.S.
I do not believe in clocks.
If the clock supply is very clean and you use the high precision comparator, that is very nice.
But will immediately be degraded by noisy grounds in the CDP and by all the logics that do not have the high precision switching points including those gates in the DAC chips.
Elso Kwak said:
You are the guy who always suggests to install a decent clock if somebody asks for mods of his CDP 😕
It can't be true somebody who claims to have on of the best clocks, asks such question.
If you have 10mVpp noise, this is 1/200 = 0,5% of the average 2V switching point.
As noise is a random signal that is present at any time including the logic switching point, ( on the rising or falling edge of the signal ), the gate may switch on 2,005V or 1,995V.
Or somewhere between. Where exactly is totally uncertain.
And as it always switches at different points, thanks to the noise 😀 it introduces error in the time domain and -
- you get jitter.
P.S.
I do not believe in clocks.
If the clock supply is very clean and you use the high precision comparator, that is very nice.
But will immediately be degraded by noisy grounds in the CDP and by all the logics that do not have the high precision switching points including those gates in the DAC chips.
Re: ground-noise?
Looks like.
...
Better not try to make fun of other people if you lack some of the basic understanding yourself.
Elso Kwak said:
Looks like.
Elso Kwak said:
...
Better not try to make fun of other people if you lack some of the basic understanding yourself.
Re: Re: Noise in digital circuits
Belief has not much to do with a scientific approach of the matter.
Bernhard said:
Belief has not much to do with a scientific approach of the matter.
LOL, more assumptions from the peanut gallery. Wrong again my friend, but then if you took the time to actually read what people are about via their bios that FYI are very easily viewable- well, nuff' said. But no, as I previously stated there are those who can, those who try, and those who can't- which are you? Me? I am in the middle, and, contrary to your misguided thinking, far from wealthy. But I do know when I want something, I will save for it- that is to say - I work for it, and have the patience to know hard work and vigilance will pay off.
I wonder, just what designs have you personally "engineered"? I checked your links, I am not overly impressed- modifing an already existing design is not a big deal, however, admirable one makes it out to be. kudos for effort either way. However, CREATING a NEW design is quite another story.
Hmm, finally words of common sense.
Where in did you learn to construct a sentence? What figure would that be? You mean the pleasing audio I recieve from my hard earned audio system? Possibly you were refering to the warranty I enjoy if something should fail? Or, were you refering to the time I actualy spend listening to why we ALL have an ear for the REAL topic- the MUSIC? One can only wonder.
Sure it's fun to "tinker", but, there is a line between "tinkering" and the actual sonic benfit garnered from such. Some might say I can "hear" that or this. Ever consider that possibly it's your other sources- or, maybe it's your AC power supply. Or, and here is a good one, THE RECORDING ITSELF? This is not to say there isn't crappy gear out there, but rather, another viewpoint- and nothing more.
Ebven so, again all the "engineer's" here in, have yet to answer my very important question- what (if anything) would you modify with regards to my YBA CDP, or, any other really good CDP for that mater? Tough question- I know.
Consider this, the time spent with research, then the actual trial and error, time lost, and your labor- you then come to one simple conclusion, for the equal amount of effort you have put into your "modding" you could have worked a few more hours a month and bought what you really wanted to begin with. Lest we forget that this is how things work for most people on planet Earth- including those that actually DO manufacture and DESIGN such equipment.
But then I highly doubt very many here have the facilities in which they could actually test and compare their "mods" vrs. something other.
All I am saying is, equate the effort to the results- is it worth it? Sure, but very rarely, and as a previous poster pointed out, most often with poor results.
Laugh a little, listen to the music, have a beer, and enjoy life.
Another two cents worth, man I work cheap.
Hello to you also sir. And yes I agree, but then it would appear my point here-in has been completly lost to most here, save- but a few.
Seems this is a bit of a rough crowd, all be it, I whole heartedly understand their points of view. However, the many years I have been at this "never ending search"- has taught me the most all important of things- patience- guess I am getting old.
At the present time 3 of my pieces of audio gear I bought new, the rest- from from friends, AudioGon and ebay.
My favorite? Vinyl of course. But CDP's are getting closer and closer- maybe someday they will be equals, but probly not in my life time. But then, by that time no one will know what analog ever was and have nothing to compare to- so the point will be moot for all but a few with the "ears" to actually listen to the MUSIC.
Wow, I almost missed this one- heh, to answer, I sure do, one of the finest ever constructed.............. my ears.
Does that answer your question, or, is everyones auditory capabilities subject to question?
Answer the above truthfully, and, you have reached the holy grail- so to speak.
Re: Re: Noise in digital circuits
So what do you suggest Bernard to improve CDP?
😕
Bernhard said:
You are the guy who always suggests to install a decent clock if somebody asks for mods of his CDP 😕
It can't be true somebody who claims to have on of the best clocks, asks such question.
If you have 10mVpp noise, this is 1/200 = 0,5% of the average 2V switching point.
As noise is a random signal that is present at any time including the logic switching point, ( on the rising or falling edge of the signal ), the gate may switch on 2,005V or 1,995V.
Or somewhere between. Where exactly is totally uncertain.
And as it always switches at different points, thanks to the noise 😀 it introduces error in the time domain and -
- you get jitter.
P.S.
I do not believe in clocks.
If the clock supply is very clean and you use the high precision comparator, that is very nice.
But will immediately be degraded by noisy grounds in the CDP and by all the logics that do not have the high precision switching points including those gates in the DAC chips.
So what do you suggest Bernard to improve CDP?
😕
Re: Re: Re: Noise in digital circuits
So if you ask me...
A multibit DAC chip with very good low level linearity is the most important IMHO.
But collecting and testing DAC chips may not be everybody's cup of tea.
Bitstream sounds a little hazy.
Remove opto couplers and output coupling cap.
I don't like modding, the CDP would end up as a rat nest.
There are really good players around with good DAC chips, copper bars for ground connections, film coupling caps, pair of big shielded transformers, big smoothing caps, shunt regulators and even a few black gates.
If the CDP hasn't got it, you can't change most of it.
Usually not enough space to do it.
So buy what you want or built it yourself.
Elso Kwak said:
So if you ask me...
A multibit DAC chip with very good low level linearity is the most important IMHO.
But collecting and testing DAC chips may not be everybody's cup of tea.
Bitstream sounds a little hazy.
Remove opto couplers and output coupling cap.
I don't like modding, the CDP would end up as a rat nest.
There are really good players around with good DAC chips, copper bars for ground connections, film coupling caps, pair of big shielded transformers, big smoothing caps, shunt regulators and even a few black gates.
If the CDP hasn't got it, you can't change most of it.
Usually not enough space to do it.
So buy what you want or built it yourself.
well, here are my 3 mods on a 3000USD Advantage CD
First - connection from laser is "flatwire" hold by a plastic clip - I have removed plastic clip and made my own where the flatwire connection is held in place between two piece of cork - and it really does matter how thight the corks are and where on the wire it is possitioned - wery good and "tuneable" mod
Second - neoprene rubber under trafo - iron plate on top of trafo remowed and replaced by nonmagnetic material, again with neopreene - bolt fore fastening is brass, much better than stainless
Third - feet under cabinet is replaced by cork
And now I can hear you say - no, dont believe it - but on this one it really works
First - connection from laser is "flatwire" hold by a plastic clip - I have removed plastic clip and made my own where the flatwire connection is held in place between two piece of cork - and it really does matter how thight the corks are and where on the wire it is possitioned - wery good and "tuneable" mod
Second - neoprene rubber under trafo - iron plate on top of trafo remowed and replaced by nonmagnetic material, again with neopreene - bolt fore fastening is brass, much better than stainless
Third - feet under cabinet is replaced by cork
And now I can hear you say - no, dont believe it - but on this one it really works
alpha_03 said:
Am I alone in smelling YA troll...?
Point is, with people like you it's not worth the talk. For instance, you are out of touch with the reallity.... how many hours shall a 3'th world country inhabitant work to afford a really good CD Player for instance? 1000? 5000? And that is assuming they do get paid for doing overtime. This place is not only for rich guys. Rich compared to the majority of others who also have ears and call themselves human beings.
As about the clock inside your CD Player, I don't know it, but I'm pretty sure it's not much more than junk. You may actually indulge yourself into believing you've got a good one, fact of the matter is, you will probably never know what a good one is and how it really sounds.
That's the last from me... so don't even bother replying. You are on my ignore list 😉
alpha_03 said:
All my electronics have a free lifetime warranty
alpha_03 said:
Being a self confessed off the shelf purchaser you know HOW?
alpha_03 said:
Not so tough: The chassis is made from "steel alloy" (no mention of magnetic properties or damping)
Also read the first post on this thread does your cd player have these three points covered? You will never know. Would they make your player better, you will never know.
Do you have a hobby? My guess is that it’s preaching to forums in a bid to prompt augments.
This is a diy audio forum (as the title suggests) stay around if you want to learn something, go find one of the other forums if you just want to tell everybody how good your off the shelf audio gear is.
P.S.
In one of your posts you picked on the grammar / spelling of one of the members so I have taken the time to correct yours in the quotes above.
Hi,
Non-Magnetic steel.
Errrr..........It does have three pointy feet.
Only one of which is in direct contact with the surface the CDP is sitting on.
The other two are mechanically isolated by two cups with a small indent in the center.
Oh, it does have this funny little blue LED too...Weird stuff that.
It even has a YBA dedicated powercord, how tweaky's that?
Last but not least, just like all the rest of the YBA stuff, it has the master's sonic signature.
Come to think of it, it's one of those rare ones that actually sound analogue. Must be that signature thing though...............
YBA Troll??
Nah.....
Cheers, 😀
Non-Magnetic steel.
Errrr..........It does have three pointy feet.
Only one of which is in direct contact with the surface the CDP is sitting on.
The other two are mechanically isolated by two cups with a small indent in the center.
Oh, it does have this funny little blue LED too...Weird stuff that.
It even has a YBA dedicated powercord, how tweaky's that?
Last but not least, just like all the rest of the YBA stuff, it has the master's sonic signature.
Come to think of it, it's one of those rare ones that actually sound analogue. Must be that signature thing though...............
YBA Troll??
Nah.....
Cheers, 😀
Looks like one of the inmates escaped the (Audio) asylum
I wonder where our "master technician" thinks the high-end companies get their platforms? In his parlance, they ("we") are all modders, too.
Yeah, bubba......even the people you bow down to buy the same platforms, and mod them. Some just spend more money on the expensive box they shove it in. And the front panel. BFD.
Jocko
I wonder where our "master technician" thinks the high-end companies get their platforms? In his parlance, they ("we") are all modders, too.
Yeah, bubba......even the people you bow down to buy the same platforms, and mod them. Some just spend more money on the expensive box they shove it in. And the front panel. BFD.
Jocko
- Status
- Not open for further replies.