tmuikku. I don't think any of us are expecting critical monitoring! Just trying to maximise listening pleasure is random odd shaped rooms and make something coool. Good point about mono for sure.
Pelanj, good point. A normal stereo pair of omnidirectional speakers might be something to consider. Speaker placement should indeed be a lot less critical with omnis.
Now you got me started down a new rabbit hole, looking into MDDs. 3FE25s are my favorite speaker to play with. I think I could be happy if that was the only speaker I would ever get to use.
In a similar vein, I've even considered making a pair of big omni dodecahedrons, so that would be 11 or 12 3FE25s each! I still would have to check to see if those monsters sitting on top of some mid-century style tripods would be cool enough to get some retro-scifi WAF appeal.
My biggest concern with omnis is intelligibility for speech. We listen to a fair amount of podcasts, and throwing a full-frequency signal all around this fairly reverberant room might make it hard to make out what people are saying.
Now you got me started down a new rabbit hole, looking into MDDs. 3FE25s are my favorite speaker to play with. I think I could be happy if that was the only speaker I would ever get to use.
In a similar vein, I've even considered making a pair of big omni dodecahedrons, so that would be 11 or 12 3FE25s each! I still would have to check to see if those monsters sitting on top of some mid-century style tripods would be cool enough to get some retro-scifi WAF appeal.
My biggest concern with omnis is intelligibility for speech. We listen to a fair amount of podcasts, and throwing a full-frequency signal all around this fairly reverberant room might make it hard to make out what people are saying.
It sure would life a bit easier if I were to accept defeat, and embrace the simple beauty of good mono.
If nothing else, with mono you only have to build one speaker for every crackpot new experiment!
Back to side wall bouncing matrix solutions for a moment, I just ran into a high end (£12,000!) single box contraption, the Orbitsound Air D1.
This was a few years ago, i have no idea if they've sold many.
https://www.stereonet.com/uk/features/first-listen-orbitsound-air-d1-onebox-luxury-stereo-speaker
This was a few years ago, i have no idea if they've sold many.
https://www.stereonet.com/uk/features/first-listen-orbitsound-air-d1-onebox-luxury-stereo-speaker
It can be still found at their web pages as "coming soon". I ordered this yesterday on e-bay for like third of the price on some sort of sale: https://www.orbitsound.com/en-gb/products/dock-e30/
I wanted to buy a portable bluetooth speaker anyway, so I will give it a try🙂
I wanted to buy a portable bluetooth speaker anyway, so I will give it a try🙂
And what is your opinion about it? Does it compare with any classic 2 speakers setup in terms of imaging, soundstage, tonality?
Oh, sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear - I didn't run into it in person, just on the web!
I'd certainly be interested in hearing it, but I suspect that like all bounce-boxes, results are quite dependent on the placement of the walls in any room.
Yes, please do!
There's not much mention of the stereo situation, but it does have side-firing drivers using something they call "Airsound".
And THREE passive radiators? Curious, since the three active drivers are each smaller than 2".
I have not followed this thread. So what new revolutionary single box stereo you came up with, mtorn?
Nothing big yet!
A bit embarrassing, really. Two weeks should have been plenty of time to research, develop, and build something truly groundbreaking.
But what I have learned is that since the 1950s until today there has been interest and demand for these things, and a that there have been lot of interesting approaches to the problem. In a worst case scenario I could always try to clone one of those.
What do you mean small cousin?
Small in age or stature?
And how does the cousin help in a single box stereo?
Small in age or stature?
And how does the cousin help in a single box stereo?
https://www.orbitsound.com/en-gb/products/dock-e30/
This box uses "Airsound", which is a variant of M-S speaker.
This box uses "Airsound", which is a variant of M-S speaker.
Yes, I feel a deep sense of shame myself at this. We must try harder. I have ordered some wood however, and will be building a little clone of the mighty Megatron!
Interesting... the smaller one looks an awful lot like the Groove Tubes Spacestation, it seems like they took over production.
Theses are almost certainly using a Sum/Difference matrix.
The larger one has to be the biggest, loudest single box stereo thing - 12" coax speaker, 700w biamped power, 116db max!
While the smaller unit, like the old GT Spacestation, uses a sidemount open baffle for the Difference component, the big one uses two 6.5" drivers in an enclosure, likely wired out of phase.
They also use some patented processing, "Digital Transducer Alignmnent". My guess is that it delays the front driver a tad, so the direct center and the reflected side signals will arrive at roughly the same time. For a large-ish live performance venue, those sidewalls might be some distance away. I may be wrong about that though, since for a live musician, any delay past a few milliseconds makes it hard to properly play your instrument.
For a live musical instrument, like a synth or an organ, a Sum/Difference stereo makes sense. You are looking to widen the spaciousness of your sound, but you don't necessarily need to be able to pinpoint the location of anything within the stereo image. On my Fender Sum/Difference acoustic guitar amp, I've had great results with simulated Hammond rotary speakers.
In general, for live sound reproduction, stereo isn't used much. For much of the audience, chances are high that you'll mostly will only hear one side of the PA stacks, so they usually go mono for everything.
So, I put together this proof of concept box out of ply, foam board and some battered tc9-fd full range speakers, and can confirm it works.
It does create a sense of stereo soundstage and depth of field wherever you move within 180degrees. Even with one driver essentially facing directly away from the ear, the stereo holds up. Maybe narrows the centre point, but certainly its there wherever you move on the horizontal and not phasey. I'll need to finish the box with a mid-bass driver and live with it more obviously.
Now, I'm not going to claim its as good as my main speakers if I'm sat in the sweet spot in the room. I just want to get this clear again. This is intended for a room where a properly placed stereo triangle is impossible or pointless.
But there is proper sounding stereo even in weird parts of the room. I think this will not work full range however. I'm not sure I liked what it was doing around 80-100hz sounded boom-y, but crossed over to a single mid-bass will be interesting.
I don't have the expertise to measure these in a way to prove the stereo performance. maybe someone could advise. Or maybe someone else could confirm/deny my experience.
I'm mulling over getting the size down by using a pair of 2" Aurasound ns2's whilst still managing to get a decent 6-8" midbass in the same box.
I think the theory is that the two opposing drivers should not be able to see each other, so this size came from the size of the tc9 baffle and achieving a perfect circle arc that covers that depth.
It does create a sense of stereo soundstage and depth of field wherever you move within 180degrees. Even with one driver essentially facing directly away from the ear, the stereo holds up. Maybe narrows the centre point, but certainly its there wherever you move on the horizontal and not phasey. I'll need to finish the box with a mid-bass driver and live with it more obviously.
Now, I'm not going to claim its as good as my main speakers if I'm sat in the sweet spot in the room. I just want to get this clear again. This is intended for a room where a properly placed stereo triangle is impossible or pointless.
But there is proper sounding stereo even in weird parts of the room. I think this will not work full range however. I'm not sure I liked what it was doing around 80-100hz sounded boom-y, but crossed over to a single mid-bass will be interesting.
I don't have the expertise to measure these in a way to prove the stereo performance. maybe someone could advise. Or maybe someone else could confirm/deny my experience.
I'm mulling over getting the size down by using a pair of 2" Aurasound ns2's whilst still managing to get a decent 6-8" midbass in the same box.
I think the theory is that the two opposing drivers should not be able to see each other, so this size came from the size of the tc9 baffle and achieving a perfect circle arc that covers that depth.
Attachments
It would be interesting to get your thoughts indeed. Been panning whilst sitting well to one side and I can hear when low end isn't rolled off if muddies the reflection and reduces the effect. I think the curve probably acts like a bit of a horn, boosting lower mid levels so they sound louder than the important highs.
I am now listening to the Dock E30. Randomly placed in a room where there is only one close wall for reflections an the other wall is some 4 meters away. It is an L shaped room, long leg pointing left, short leg at me and I am sitting on a couch at the end of the short leg with wall just behind me. Compared to mono, there is certainly some sense of space. Enjoyable for sure. Not comparable to a great stereo setup, but much better than an average Bluetooth speaker. It feels like a smaller version of full soundstage. Sound quality otherwise is really great.