exactly.
This also shows another commercial aspect: who servers first is right: i´m still fiddling with my 1541 protoypes, for more than 1 year? but as there are some "professional" kit sellers and money makers allready, i would earn bashing when showing my prototypes and designs here - potential competitors need to be beaten down.
till said:
I could make PCBs and sell kits, I even have people asking, on my personal e-mail.
But I simply don't have the time to organize this and if I did, you guys could be sure that if an LM338 PSU was included I would mail Pedja, and I would'n mind at all to share part of the $$$ with him.
But for something like an AD815 preamp, with my own implementation, I would not need to ask permission to anyone.
I think this is simple to understand.
Nuuk said:
Spot on, I also hope people like Pedja,Carlos,JR etc realise how much they are appreciated by people like me for sharing their ideas.
I know for sure I couldn't afford a piece of ready built commercial gear that sounds half as good as these diy designs
The purpose of putting something online is often to have some feedback, sometimes the reasons may be purely altruistic (“to help people" to make it), sometimes barely egoistic (to get glorious), but practically never to get rid of surplus welfares to help someone to earn money. It is important to know that those who do that are not supposed or due to do that.maxw said:
Also important thing here is that we are not talking only about the usage of the project as such, we are talking also about the usage of the popularity of the project. Why not try to offer regulated GC supply on some forum other than this or maybe gainclone.com? Because the popularity of the project lives here and these places are valued advertising space. And it is not given as such from the sky but is made like such by some people...
No, it is not about the numbers, it is about the spirit.
We’ve already been through the idea of service for the DIY community with this.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35442&perpage=10&pagenumber=4
All the info, almost complete design was made, but resulting actual product wasn't.
Thanks.
I figured that out, it is no problem, in fact it is me who wanted to hear opinions...
Pedja
peranders said:
I speak for myself and I helped a little because it didn't look like a commercial project.
As soon as it smelled, I got out.
I help plenty of people, also through my personal e-mail, but purely on the DIY spirit.
I'm not anyone's R&D department, if it is to make $$$.
peranders said:
Prove it.
peranders said:
P-A, please... what a sad thing to read.
peranders said:
So my hint went to production?😎
Send me the $$$$, I'll redirect it to who I think deserves it.
Geez. $4 boards going to DIYers on this forum doesn't sound anything like commercial. Does fill a need for DIY's on this board though.
Further the values Digi01 posted for components are more generic as are some of the component spacings. If you want to make it into the part values CarlosFM recommends for the power supply for example you have to dig a bit.
Yes there has been a lot of interest generated in CarlosFMs Regulated gaincline approach. Digi01 created some boards to try it. Many wanted boards and he arranged and got them to us for $4 a piece. So lots of DIYers are able to try it.
Sounds very DIY community to me. I am very appreciative.
A group buy that lots of people want to partake of does not equal commercial. Particularly at $4 per board.
Further the values Digi01 posted for components are more generic as are some of the component spacings. If you want to make it into the part values CarlosFM recommends for the power supply for example you have to dig a bit.
Yes there has been a lot of interest generated in CarlosFMs Regulated gaincline approach. Digi01 created some boards to try it. Many wanted boards and he arranged and got them to us for $4 a piece. So lots of DIYers are able to try it.
Sounds very DIY community to me. I am very appreciative.
A group buy that lots of people want to partake of does not equal commercial. Particularly at $4 per board.
We discussed this at some length amongst the mods... i'm still not sure what you are complaining about Pedja -- the 1st one to mention regulated supplies for a gainclone? (i'm not even sure you get credit for that -- you certainly weren't the only one thinking of it -- Joe Rasmussen's commercial VBIGC is regulated).
Digi proposed a sharing of a layout for a general purpose 338 reg.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38636
He got some help and he gave credit for that help here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39816
Digi was going to make 20 boards (ie enuff for 10 power supplies) but demand from board members drove him to make more (what would you do if board members praised your work by voting with their dollars? -- i was one of those (and got some for JasonL)). Certainly this was never intended to be, or IMO is, a commercial effort.
Further, digi's board layout is his own (at least the base design already posted for all to download) and his circuit is (subtely) different from the circuits posted by Pedja on his website, and Carlos on this forum (all 3 are straight derivatives ot the circuits in the ap notes anyway)
dave
Digi proposed a sharing of a layout for a general purpose 338 reg.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38636
He got some help and he gave credit for that help here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39816
Digi was going to make 20 boards (ie enuff for 10 power supplies) but demand from board members drove him to make more (what would you do if board members praised your work by voting with their dollars? -- i was one of those (and got some for JasonL)). Certainly this was never intended to be, or IMO is, a commercial effort.
Further, digi's board layout is his own (at least the base design already posted for all to download) and his circuit is (subtely) different from the circuits posted by Pedja on his website, and Carlos on this forum (all 3 are straight derivatives ot the circuits in the ap notes anyway)
dave
I can't sense any commercial smell at all from reading the posts. Maybe it's a case of "you snooze, you loose"?carlosfm said:
There are often big words like "commercial", "profit" but those who use those words have not organized anything so they are speaking without any knowledge in the matter.
Many people here want others to do all the work for free and on top of it sell it for free. Of all 20000 members approx. 5-10 people have organized group deals so I think you should be pleased that someone has a helping spirit.
Point taken Lars. But surely this is about respect, as much, if not more than, about profit.
I have never made one penny from Decibel Dungeon and I'm not complaining about that. The point is, I still think it is respectful and right to acknowledge the source of any material that I publish there.It's a mattery or corurtesy and profit doesn't necessarily enter the argument.
Forums like this one, thrive only due to co-operation and good will, and may be we shouldn't take them so much for granted!
Let me make a few comments, if I may.
First, I am distressed to see unfounded accusations and rather racist speech being thrown out here by a few of the members. This is NOT acceptable. And I will not debate that point nor tolerate anything further in that vein. There are no moderators raking in piles of money for group buys. The accusation has been made before, I've investigated, and that's just an out and out lie. The racism is quite a bit more repugnant, and the member who used that sort of language ought to apologize.
Let me preface my main point by saying that I'm not in the audio business, I work here on a volunteer basis, I don't sell parts (other than a few one-off items from my garage), I don't sell boards, I've got no financial interests here. OK? But I am, as a profession, an inventor. I deal with intellectual property issues on a daily basis involving tens of millions of dollars. So I've got a reasonable handle on the ins and outs of turning ideas into reality.
First reality: this is a niche hobby. No one is buying Rolls Royces from selling boards. From a pecuniary point of view, we're talking pizza money. There's very little at stake.
Second reality: there is almost zero stuff here worth any sort of IP protection. Just doesn't make sense economically.
Third reality: this is a public forum. Things you post here, absent some other form of IP protection, are in the public domain. People can use them, and if it's a good idea, they will.
Fourth reality: anyone has the choice to buy or not buy from someone else. If the members think that person A is a thief or is unreliable, they can simply not deal with him.
Fifth reality: as an institution, diyAudio.com will not tolerate the unauthorized use of genuine IP. By "genuine IP", I mean material that is patented, copyrighted, or enjoys similar formal recognition. If someone takes an idea I throw out in the Tube Forum and incorporates it into some commercial product, that's not an IP issue, that's the reality of how design works. Things put in the public domain are free for the public to use.
I can (and do) sympathize for anyone who feels that they were not given due credit for their idea, it's sure happened to me a lot, but if you want to do audio as a profession, don't post your design work here or in any other public place unless you intend it to be freely used. That free usage is the raison d'etre of internet forums. That's why, when you look inside my preamp, you see a power supply based on ideas I got from John Curl and Fred Dieckman, an input transformer based on ideas I got from Steve Eddy, and an RIAA stage that incorporates suggestions from EC8010. If I published this circuit or started selling PC boards to build it, it would be good manners on my part to thank them, but it's a matter of manners, not theft.
First, I am distressed to see unfounded accusations and rather racist speech being thrown out here by a few of the members. This is NOT acceptable. And I will not debate that point nor tolerate anything further in that vein. There are no moderators raking in piles of money for group buys. The accusation has been made before, I've investigated, and that's just an out and out lie. The racism is quite a bit more repugnant, and the member who used that sort of language ought to apologize.
Let me preface my main point by saying that I'm not in the audio business, I work here on a volunteer basis, I don't sell parts (other than a few one-off items from my garage), I don't sell boards, I've got no financial interests here. OK? But I am, as a profession, an inventor. I deal with intellectual property issues on a daily basis involving tens of millions of dollars. So I've got a reasonable handle on the ins and outs of turning ideas into reality.
First reality: this is a niche hobby. No one is buying Rolls Royces from selling boards. From a pecuniary point of view, we're talking pizza money. There's very little at stake.
Second reality: there is almost zero stuff here worth any sort of IP protection. Just doesn't make sense economically.
Third reality: this is a public forum. Things you post here, absent some other form of IP protection, are in the public domain. People can use them, and if it's a good idea, they will.
Fourth reality: anyone has the choice to buy or not buy from someone else. If the members think that person A is a thief or is unreliable, they can simply not deal with him.
Fifth reality: as an institution, diyAudio.com will not tolerate the unauthorized use of genuine IP. By "genuine IP", I mean material that is patented, copyrighted, or enjoys similar formal recognition. If someone takes an idea I throw out in the Tube Forum and incorporates it into some commercial product, that's not an IP issue, that's the reality of how design works. Things put in the public domain are free for the public to use.
I can (and do) sympathize for anyone who feels that they were not given due credit for their idea, it's sure happened to me a lot, but if you want to do audio as a profession, don't post your design work here or in any other public place unless you intend it to be freely used. That free usage is the raison d'etre of internet forums. That's why, when you look inside my preamp, you see a power supply based on ideas I got from John Curl and Fred Dieckman, an input transformer based on ideas I got from Steve Eddy, and an RIAA stage that incorporates suggestions from EC8010. If I published this circuit or started selling PC boards to build it, it would be good manners on my part to thank them, but it's a matter of manners, not theft.
I think that's the point of this thread unless I have misunderstood.
In fairness, I don't think that Pedja is accusing anybody of theft, or being a racist.
No, I haven't seen any racist comments from Pedja- if one infers that from anything I've written, I apologize and assure that this is not my meaning.
moving_electron said:
Are you sure?
I've posted complete schematics of the PSU and of my complete amp on several threads.
My original thread was never re-opened, and I'm not responsible for that.
You can imagine that my "ground-shaking" thread gave me some more white hairs (this photo has some years old😀 ), just trying to explain such a clear evidence: that the regulated PSU is much better than the low-capacitance unregulated PSU most people were (and still are) using.
Why do I bother?
I dunno.😕
peranders said:
I did, because I was just getting out of a senseless fight and I had a good smell back then.
Anyway, P-A, it seams that your idea of fair living in this community is that one can get someone else's schematic, make a PCB fast, sell it fast.
The faster you are, the better.
It's a question of first arrival.
I guess this is ok for you.
Don't bother to include me in these interests, because I don't play that game.
BTW, from what I've seen people selling around here, it's possible to make it much better.
A good looking PCB is not enough.
But my attitude has to be prudent, and I understand Pedja very well.
Let me be very clear about Joe: he is one of the best guys I’ve ever met over the Net, both speaking about him like a person and like an audio designer. However, your claim about his amp is wrong - the supply of the input buffer of Joe’s JLTi amp indeed is regulated, but its output stage is not.planet10 said:
While we are on the topic, to my knowledge, the first who has regulated the supply for GC, was Fred Dieckmann.
This is also wrong. It was not the demand_from_board_members, it was pushing_by_Per-Anders that drove him into the commercial adventure. Per-Anders is desperately spamming this and other forums (just make a search through his posts on the gainclone.com and note the “content”) trying to send one, two, five boards (“helping spirit”)… We have more than 250 sold boards for the regulated supply. Do you really don’t understand this? Is it really that complicated? Do you really think it is the result of digi01’s work? Btw, that guy who bought 50 samples has multi channel system, 5.1, but stereo, so 12 in sum
, times 3 rooms = 36, plus 14 in reserve if something gets wrong (“it is a DIY, maaaaan!”)?Pedja
SY said:
SY, I may be wrong, but to my knowledge, Pedja never posted his LM338 regulated PSU here on the forum.
It's on his site.
I posted the schematic here, with some very slight changes, and gave credit to him.
I expected that anyone using this PSU for commercial purposes would contact him, I just can't see things in any other way.
I respect other people's work.
Sorry, I skipped a lot of answers to the original question.
Let's turn the original question to several questions:
Is there ONE patent on the world, protecting something concerning GC's?
Is there ONE registered trademark, concerning GC's?
Do JR or PD pay some licence fees to someone?
The answer to all this questions is (imho): NO.
Another question:
Do we share information, here?
The answer is: YES.
As far as I know, you have to avoid every publication, when you apply a patent. Otherwise it will already be lost and some kind of public good!
AND: patents are only valid in this countries, where there are applied and registered!
Up to now, I did not find ONE point, stopping me to plan a small production and hopefully selling amps of my GC version.
If this points are not true, then I ask for 5us$ per channel, using a t-network for feedback after publication of the t-network thread here in this forum
Franz
Let's turn the original question to several questions:
Is there ONE patent on the world, protecting something concerning GC's?
Is there ONE registered trademark, concerning GC's?
Do JR or PD pay some licence fees to someone?
The answer to all this questions is (imho): NO.
Another question:
Do we share information, here?
The answer is: YES.
As far as I know, you have to avoid every publication, when you apply a patent. Otherwise it will already be lost and some kind of public good!
AND: patents are only valid in this countries, where there are applied and registered!
Up to now, I did not find ONE point, stopping me to plan a small production and hopefully selling amps of my GC version.
If this points are not true, then I ask for 5us$ per channel, using a t-network for feedback after publication of the t-network thread here in this forum
Franz
Even more reason not to drag diyAudio into this. It's not an IP dispute, there's about zero at stake, and anyone's public website is... public.
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