Solution:
Require all Group Buy projects to freely publish all project documentation here at DIYAudio.com including:
User / Instruction Manuals
PCB drawings / pdf files / gerber files / CAD files - all PCB files
Schematics
i.e. all documentation included in the Group Buy package and all documentation necessary to duplicate it EXACTLY, right down to the PCB manufacurer and specs.
In this way, anyone wishing to exactly duplicate the effort could easily do so without having to participate in the Group Buy. If a Group Buy organiser can not or will not publish everything here, then it's a commercial offering.
Also, I believe DIYAudio should restrict support questions related to group buy products to the Group Buy forum. It's not DIY to assemble a PCB - it's soldering!
Require all Group Buy projects to freely publish all project documentation here at DIYAudio.com including:
User / Instruction Manuals
PCB drawings / pdf files / gerber files / CAD files - all PCB files
Schematics
i.e. all documentation included in the Group Buy package and all documentation necessary to duplicate it EXACTLY, right down to the PCB manufacurer and specs.
In this way, anyone wishing to exactly duplicate the effort could easily do so without having to participate in the Group Buy. If a Group Buy organiser can not or will not publish everything here, then it's a commercial offering.
Also, I believe DIYAudio should restrict support questions related to group buy products to the Group Buy forum. It's not DIY to assemble a PCB - it's soldering!
The idea is very good for those who want to recieve but as you may have noticed a majority of those who want to give are not willing to do this.jeff mai said:
About your last remark. I think you are looking down on people which are soldering pcb's. My definition of DIY is "Do something yourself".
To clarify:
My idea of requiring full disclosure of group buy project documentation does not mean that all the documentation I mention must be created.
It only means that if it exists (i.e. it's part of the mailed package, or posted elsewhere, or it is used to create parts like the PCB) then it must be posted here.
My idea of requiring full disclosure of group buy project documentation does not mean that all the documentation I mention must be created.
It only means that if it exists (i.e. it's part of the mailed package, or posted elsewhere, or it is used to create parts like the PCB) then it must be posted here.
Those are free, like most of our professional members do, to make their business OUTSIDE the board.
Also i would not call them " those who want to give" but " those who want to sell"
jeff mai said:
peranders said:
P-A, you are contradicting yourself.
So why sell PCBs here?
Why do you do it?
After reading your last remark, I am confused.😕
Please, go ahead and do that. I may be wrong.
Notice also jeff, that what is free and what is not free is the choice of the designer. This is a question of giving and how much.
A good example of this is the group buy over at head-fi.org and David White's (White Noise Audio) stuff. He doesn't publish anything at his homepage. All info is non-public but this is the only case I know.
Notice also jeff, that what is free and what is not free is the choice of the designer. This is a question of giving and how much.
A good example of this is the group buy over at head-fi.org and David White's (White Noise Audio) stuff. He doesn't publish anything at his homepage. All info is non-public but this is the only case I know.
peranders said:
Exactly the whole point of this thread, you've got it.😎
Pedja posted the conditions long ago on Digi's thread, much before Digi "offered" the PCBs.
You can find the link to that post on this thread.
Those conditions were surpassed long ago.
peranders said:
Yes, and no one is revoking free will. My proposal simply asks for "Group Buys" to be 100% free and transparent with regards to IP and accounting issues. If you want to do it differently, don't call it a "Group Buy." There is a commercial forum here.
A "Group Buy" has a particular meaning. It means the group purchasing of individual parts in order to receive quantity discounts. There are two issues with most of the projects designated as "Group Buys" here:
1) In a true group buy, there is no value added in the parts package (like instructions or a PCB), it's just parts. No IP.
2) In a true group buy, costs are apportioned to the individual purchasers according to the actual cost of the parts. There isn't a "package price." There are shipping costs and maybe an administrative fee going to the organiser / orderer for his trouble that was agreed upon in advance. The key is that the accounting is transparent.
BTW, this isn't meant as an attack on any of the group buys or their organisers. I've participated in two of them and appreciate the effort that went into them. I'm just making a suggestion to reduce the potential for controversy.
carlosfm said:
If one posts a design on the internet, someone else may use it. It may be 1 someone or 2500 someones.
Do we credit all the textbooks and instructors we've learned our design techniques from in all of our designs? No.
The circuits we're talking about are generally so simple that novelty would cause them to perform poorly. They really aren't design so much as a collection of techniques.
and then when you ask whether you can get it without the chips "they" ignore you. going to prove what "they" are in for?carlosfm said:
This reminds me a "TDA1541A already"and an AD844 issue.😉
PS: replying to an "older" post, since I had a nice cultural weekend in paris
So, any idea why people do not use some of their own, simple or not, to sell in the Group Buy, but they take the ones promoted by the others?jeff mai said:
jeff mai said:
You post on the net as a diyer and you don't expect Sony to use your idea.😀
Simple or not, that doesn't matter.
Sometimes the simple things are the best, even if nobody has thought about it before.
There's a guy ordering (already delivered) 50 😱 regulator PCBs.
As you can see here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/wiki/index.php?page=3886igc
I'm sure it's for personal/DIY use.
Maby it is for 10-way speakers with active crossovers on a 7-channel AV setup?
If he was ordering 1000, Digi would do it, do you have any doubt?
Despite Pedja's conditions, posted on his thread long ago.
This is the point, for all:
Is it so hard to send a personal e-mail?
Maaaaaaannn...
It sounds 100% commercial to me.moving_electron said:
I got quotes for euro size pcbs(16x10cm) from china and I'll quote one of them(not even the cheapest):
"2 layers , 16cmX10cm, 100pcs,2oz copper, US400"
So, draw the line, it comes at $4 for 10x16 boards. And the nice thing: price is shipped to europe.
I agree with one thing tho: if someone goes for a group buy and he checked with the guys and everything ok, he may make some profit, it is his right to cover his wasted time(which is nowhere near 5 minues for a big order) and he also has the right(of course in my opinion) to a very small profit, kind of like saying "thanks" for his/her kindness.
But charging $4 for such a small board, that sure makes a lot of profit for china. For me the price is fair, but what he did is not fair since he didn't check with the involved guys.
roibm said:
I even say more: he can profit what he wants, it's his business.
Only buys it who wants to.
roibm said:
That's really the point.
Maaaaann.
Thanks.🙂
Well done, Dave!planet10 said:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=517411#post517411
Pedja said:
You misunderstand me.
The circuits are so simple that it's difficult to make them look different from another without compromising the performance.
Someone may spend lots of time and effort adjusting the values of certain components from those given in a datasheet or applying already known bypassing techniques or whatever, but this isn't going to get you a patent.
Besides, it's natural that people re-use ideas. If you don't want someone to re-use your idea, keep it secret. It may seem unfair not to receive credit, but you and I have learned almost everything we know from someone else.
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