carlosfm said:
I also can't remember seeing any of Pedja's regulated supplies on here Carlos, I think even the ones you posted say NOT for use in commercial applications
Sorry, this is absolutely nothing worth, the comment, about "Not for use in commercial applications"!
Again: you could apply a patent and/or register some trademarks. Otherwise: we all live in a open, free economics.
Remember: we call ourselfes "cloner" of a product from a company!
Franz
Franz, there's no problem at all that you make your amps and sell locally to your customers or friends.
Nobody's saying that.
Selling thousands to all the world may be another question.
The point is: this site could have some commercial adds to support it.
But consistently making this forum a place to make publicity and sell things is not the initial goal for what it was created.
Of course I don't include you on the group of members who "abbuse" this place.
To prove my point, don't take me wrong, but there's an issue here that intrigues me:
Why is this thread located on the Chip Amps forum, instead of the place it should be: Group Buys?😕
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33863
Nobody's saying that.
Selling thousands to all the world may be another question.
The point is: this site could have some commercial adds to support it.
But consistently making this forum a place to make publicity and sell things is not the initial goal for what it was created.
Of course I don't include you on the group of members who "abbuse" this place.
To prove my point, don't take me wrong, but there's an issue here that intrigues me:
Why is this thread located on the Chip Amps forum, instead of the place it should be: Group Buys?😕
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33863
Pedja said:
50?😱
😀
I guess it must be ok to sell TI/Burr-Brown samples, then.
On the spirit of DIY, of course.
The question for all of you :
😕
I just checked your homepage and I have to say I´m still waiting for the point you wanna make here.
😕
carlosfm said:
I am not sure what you want. Are you saying that you would be happier if no one tried your implementation except a few who designed and etched their own boards and emailed you directly?
I guess I would have thought that you would be pleased that so many are going to try it. The PCBs are the enabler for many.
I assume you bothered to explain your ideas because you felt that through hard work you had hit on a very good design and wanted others to also experience and appreciate it.
carlosfm said:
Were you planning to organize a group buy of PCBs so people could try your ideas? I had not seen any indication. There were several layout attempts started on the forum as I remember. Digi was the only one to complete it and take it as far as a group buy and only after his initial small run caused DIYers to ping him for more. He then shared the layout.
Quick is good. Are you saying you would be happier if all the people who bought in the group buy had to wait say 6-12 months to try your design ideas?
I view layout and then organizing a group buy as very time consuming hard work and a great contribution. They do it because they like to do it. They certainly would not do it to for some limited return on $4 boards. Imagine the time it takes just to design, organize and ship these.
High demand from DIYers for $4 boards does not equal commercial. I bought 10 boards so I can build a dual mono RIGC (needs 4 PS boards), perhaps do the same to my NIGC and have a couple left over for a future endeavor. Buffering will come later.
So I am confused. In what way do you want people to apply the ideas you shared? Or do you not really want them to use the ideas unless they use Veroboard? Will you really only be happy if everyone lays out there own board, so it is a small select club? Or do you want DIYers as much as possible to try the design, build it and enjoy the resulting good music?
Please describe the way you would actually want it to work.
Pedja,
You seem to be getting a little carried away here. You seem to believe that a popular group buy is "commercial" and worthy of conspiracy theories.
Should we only have unpopular group buys then?
What is the threshold where a group buy changes from service to the DIY community and toggles over to where you will tag it "commercial". Total of 20 boards? Total of 40 boards? Total of 100 boards?
Maybe we should only have group buys for designs no one cares about......
You seem to be getting a little carried away here. You seem to believe that a popular group buy is "commercial" and worthy of conspiracy theories.
Should we only have unpopular group buys then?
What is the threshold where a group buy changes from service to the DIY community and toggles over to where you will tag it "commercial". Total of 20 boards? Total of 40 boards? Total of 100 boards?
Maybe we should only have group buys for designs no one cares about......
moving_electron said:
Me?
I don't want anything.
You didn't understand my post, forget it.
If I didn't want people to try it, I wouldn't have opened a thread.
And believe me, I would have rested more, as I was very criticized just for saying that this PSU is better.😱
moving_electron said:
Of course not.
Do you guys really need PCBs for everything?
Is the lack of a PCB a reason for not trying it?
I insist on the fact of anywone using a certain design for selling publicly a PCB should consult the person that made the original schematic.
That person could even give an OK without asking for anything.
But it's the attitude.
The same attitude that Nuuk has taken before publishing an article from a mag, on his web site.
He contacted the author of the article, who gave him permission.
If a web site is public, also public is an article on a magazine.
But still, some order is needed here.
No?
Pedja made the conditions clear long ago, on Digi's thread.
Pedja made the original schematic and reported good results with the GC.
He has the right to act as he wants.
IMHO.
That person could even give an OK without asking for anything.
But it's the attitude.
The same attitude that Nuuk has taken before publishing an article from a mag, on his web site.
He contacted the author of the article, who gave him permission.
If a web site is public, also public is an article on a magazine.
But still, some order is needed here.
No?
Pedja made the conditions clear long ago, on Digi's thread.
Pedja made the original schematic and reported good results with the GC.
He has the right to act as he wants.
IMHO.
I can’t remember I went into the conspiracy theories.moving_electron said:
As I’ve already told (might be in the other thread), threshold is firstly approach related. But if you insist, the numbers may speak for themselves, for example when after 200 samples sold in the first round we have the second round and no end in sight, I don’t know if it can be called anyhow but commercial adventure.
The other things I just can’t explain anymore. If one understands, it is fine, if not, let it be.
Pedja
moving_electron said:
Exactly! Thats what I asked and you can see Penja's answer here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=516662#post516662
Can we just move the conversation out of this thread to the other one?
carlosfm said:
No. But it is a lot more deterministic way to try out a design. It removes a lot of variables. So it is an enabler and helps a lot of people who are at different places in the "skill" spectrum. Everyone is at a different place in the DIY journey and helping as many as possible to work with a good design is a good thing.
Keep in mind also that even though I am wanting to use a PCB does not mean that I do not make contributions to other areas of the DIYaudio boards that you may benefit from. (Including at least one original implementation for using particular materials in a previously untried way.)
carlosfm said:
Agreed.
carlosfm said:
And believe me, I would have rested more, as I was very criticized just for saying that this PSU is better.😱
Yes, as always no good deed goes unpunished! 😉 🙁
I am glad to be working on a Regulated IGC per your specs and I am grateful for you efforts and postings. I will get to the buffered part via a point to point or self made PCB effort, but I want to get the regulated and IGC part all done first. This project is sort of a do a bit each day toward a final fully finished implementation so it is sort of puttering along, as opposed to a quick try it prototype.
in my opinion the amerikan mod and some others who only trigger on IP issues demostrate they want not understand the problem. Maybe such people are unable to be moderator of an international board, for cultural differences (better: deficits).
IP is a very american concept, a modern kind of imperialism, a tool to force other to pay for stuff they allready posses, do not really need or want (plastic corks for example), et cetera.
The point is more one of policy than of IP. A seller, marketing clerk, consumer etc. does discuss in another way as a diy peer without commercial interest in this boards communication. One who wants to sell a product or his products philosophie is not open to discuss, he bashes everything different than his, tries to highten is own concoctions, does not care for truth. The point is: this way we made the board is dominated by what we call "Krämerseelen" not entusiasts anymore.
In other words: commercial interests made the sound of this board hostile and full of "semi-truth".
I don´t see any IP or other problem in building chipamps or selling kits for them. We have one example of a member who does so sucessfully without doing marketing in all his postings. He also does not bash "concurrent" designs, and is participating in a constructive way in other topics than his kits. So selling kits or anything else is not bad or wrong. But abuse of this board for commercial interests is bad and wrong. A moderator who does nothing else anymore but pushing his own marketing threads and bashing others is of disadvantage for this board. Members who are only here for marketing are bad for this board.
IP is a very american concept, a modern kind of imperialism, a tool to force other to pay for stuff they allready posses, do not really need or want (plastic corks for example), et cetera.
The point is more one of policy than of IP. A seller, marketing clerk, consumer etc. does discuss in another way as a diy peer without commercial interest in this boards communication. One who wants to sell a product or his products philosophie is not open to discuss, he bashes everything different than his, tries to highten is own concoctions, does not care for truth. The point is: this way we made the board is dominated by what we call "Krämerseelen" not entusiasts anymore.
In other words: commercial interests made the sound of this board hostile and full of "semi-truth".
I don´t see any IP or other problem in building chipamps or selling kits for them. We have one example of a member who does so sucessfully without doing marketing in all his postings. He also does not bash "concurrent" designs, and is participating in a constructive way in other topics than his kits. So selling kits or anything else is not bad or wrong. But abuse of this board for commercial interests is bad and wrong. A moderator who does nothing else anymore but pushing his own marketing threads and bashing others is of disadvantage for this board. Members who are only here for marketing are bad for this board.
carlosfm said:
It was started before there was a group buy and the (vollenteer) mods missed moving it to the right place (thanx for the pointer, it is now)... there are no doubt quite a few threads that haven't yet been tracked down and moved to their appropriate thread... we just don't have a full-time cleaning crew to do such things.
dave
I've just merged in another discussion on the same topic and i'd like to point out this post from that thread:
< http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=516809#post516809>
dave
< http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=516809#post516809>
dave
till said:
A clear and open mind is needed to advance and try different/better things.
A member that has PCBs for selling is potentially adverse to discuss better ways of doing things.
Most often they stop in time.
This would not be such a big problem it there wasn't interferences on the threads of people (I include myself here) that is trying and reporting a "new" idea.
Carlosfm: I don't worry about that, for several reasons: 🙂
1..A copy needs to be cheaper than the original to sell right? I know what the modules cost to produce, and it can not be done much cheaper, if you count in the marketing cost and support effort to reach sales of 1000's. It's not as simple as copying a circuit.
2..If a direct copy is made, and will reach significant sales, we can take legal action.
3..Those who walk in my footsteps will have a hard time getting ahead of me ;-)
4..Those who sell copyware seldom have the tech skills to support their product, (if they had they would not need to copy my work) and therefore will not be able to maintain any real market. They will end up with hundreds of angry customers, and will never be able to enter the market again in the future.
5..If a clone of my product is starting to gain market success, well i can develope my product to the next generation. Who will buy a copy of a 'not the latest' product? I don't intend to sleep on my success pillows, the technology is changing, the market is moving, and the world is spinning 24 hr a day.
What drives a successful business is not just a great circuit, it's also market presence, tech support, sales support, customer trust and many other elements.
All the best from
Lars 🙂
1..A copy needs to be cheaper than the original to sell right? I know what the modules cost to produce, and it can not be done much cheaper, if you count in the marketing cost and support effort to reach sales of 1000's. It's not as simple as copying a circuit.
2..If a direct copy is made, and will reach significant sales, we can take legal action.
3..Those who walk in my footsteps will have a hard time getting ahead of me ;-)
4..Those who sell copyware seldom have the tech skills to support their product, (if they had they would not need to copy my work) and therefore will not be able to maintain any real market. They will end up with hundreds of angry customers, and will never be able to enter the market again in the future.
5..If a clone of my product is starting to gain market success, well i can develope my product to the next generation. Who will buy a copy of a 'not the latest' product? I don't intend to sleep on my success pillows, the technology is changing, the market is moving, and the world is spinning 24 hr a day.
What drives a successful business is not just a great circuit, it's also market presence, tech support, sales support, customer trust and many other elements.
All the best from
Lars 🙂
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