don't hold you breath too long, Pooh. Last time i build speakers they last me 10 years. If i like the hornless thing, it might be another 10 years of music-lovin' without looking back.
The way i understand your dogmatic view, the only bad thing that can happen on my side is... blown diaphragms.
If not, what else ? The missed opportunity of magical horn paradise ? Well, i heard tons of them, in audio shows, at friends and even here. I never was convinced or tempted. Even worst: i know now that i had bad opinion of compression drivers partly because of that!
The way i understand your dogmatic view, the only bad thing that can happen on my side is... blown diaphragms.
If not, what else ? The missed opportunity of magical horn paradise ? Well, i heard tons of them, in audio shows, at friends and even here. I never was convinced or tempted. Even worst: i know now that i had bad opinion of compression drivers partly because of that!
One thing i'm sure of:
Frequencies above 5khz are AMT and Ribbons territory. Maybe Plasma, but that's another story.
Compression drivers? Any size, any model, any horn... They're just not at the top of the food chain, period.
On the other hand, they seem to have great potential between 500hz-5khz, which is already excellent. I very well see myself living with 3 tech: cone, CD and ribbon. The filet mignon of each groups of octaves.
Frequencies above 5khz are AMT and Ribbons territory. Maybe Plasma, but that's another story.
Compression drivers? Any size, any model, any horn... They're just not at the top of the food chain, period.
On the other hand, they seem to have great potential between 500hz-5khz, which is already excellent. I very well see myself living with 3 tech: cone, CD and ribbon. The filet mignon of each groups of octaves.
I didn't mention anything about blown diaphragms. I am saying you are taling a driver that was designed to drive a horn and you are expecting it to perform. In that you lower the sensitivity by 12-15 db, shorten the bandwidth and screw up the radiation.
Pooh, you do understand what 'dogmatic view' means, am i right ?
Just in case... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dogmatic
...and, again, just in case:
I don't care a single bit about your opinions and/or theoratical views when, in real-life results, i have demonstration of the opposite.
Sensitity is the highest i tested so far, the bandwith is surprisingly wide and the radiation is the big bonus of the hornless.
You're 0 out of 3.
Oh, and yes you're right: you didnt mention anything about blown diaphragms. And i didnt say you mention anything about it either... That was merely an attempt to get you at least one point.
Just in case... https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dogmatic
...and, again, just in case:
I don't care a single bit about your opinions and/or theoratical views when, in real-life results, i have demonstration of the opposite.
Sensitity is the highest i tested so far, the bandwith is surprisingly wide and the radiation is the big bonus of the hornless.
You're 0 out of 3.
Oh, and yes you're right: you didnt mention anything about blown diaphragms. And i didnt say you mention anything about it either... That was merely an attempt to get you at least one point.
Damn, guys. I knew by starting that thread i could have accidently kicked on a bee's nest but at least come up with something solid. If you're going to bite, bite good!
LOL. We're all passionate about good sound - that's why we're here, after all - so there's no need to get confrontational about it. We're all pleased that you've rigged up something that works for you. I, for one, am just trying to get a feel for whether it would be a good idea for me as well.
I don't know whether you have any kind of measurement gear. Would love to see some response curves and polar plots.
At the end of the day, music is about enjoyment. If you like what you hear, that is all that matters. Good for you.
I don't know whether you have any kind of measurement gear. Would love to see some response curves and polar plots.
At the end of the day, music is about enjoyment. If you like what you hear, that is all that matters. Good for you.
Thanks for the link to the other thread. Did you do the SPL test at various frequencies and power levels? Various angles, too?
I used different music tunes, including Nick Drake's guitar (!) and i ended up having the most powerful peak by using ''Bowls'' from Caribou:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX1pm2o_2T4
But honestly i didnt make a thorough search to know which music excerpt has the loudest 480-4120hz there is.. 😉
Don't want to test my wife's patience more than i did tonight! haha
But let's say you could probably get 1 or 2db more with the right tune.
edit: no, not various angle. The array is at little disadvantage, even @2m distance, but the walls and floors are pretty close so it shouldnt be that bad. Anyway, when you hear it live, it's CLEAR the Radian has much more torque and output capacity than the array. The array, even though each of the 8 driver consume very little power and move very little, are not feeling effortless as the Radian.
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That's not sensitivity across the bandwidth you state. I don't get why you posted this. I don't think you are capable of comprehending any advice I give so I'm out. Have fun.
Third day/night with the 950PBbe hornless in my good 'ol 4-way speakers...
Damn, that driver sounds good! I'm still amazed.
It really, really reminds me of the sonic signature of a good ribbon, but applied in the 400-ish hz up to 1500hz (area where the ribbons cannot go): highly detailed, very open, airy sound, 3D-like soundstage, a lot of torque... wow. Yummy all the way.
Its VERY tempting to order a pair of BMS and go even lower (250hz ??), but will i get the same overrall feeling from the BMS's different technology/diaphragm ?
Damn, that driver sounds good! I'm still amazed.
It really, really reminds me of the sonic signature of a good ribbon, but applied in the 400-ish hz up to 1500hz (area where the ribbons cannot go): highly detailed, very open, airy sound, 3D-like soundstage, a lot of torque... wow. Yummy all the way.
Its VERY tempting to order a pair of BMS and go even lower (250hz ??), but will i get the same overrall feeling from the BMS's different technology/diaphragm ?
update on post no.1
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ss-compression-driver-thread.html#post4915894
PROS & CONS
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ss-compression-driver-thread.html#post4915894
PROS & CONS
Jon,
Since you are in an experimental state;
would you consider removing the back cover of the CD and give it a go in dipole mode?
I am for one very curious as a dipole lover...
Since you are in an experimental state;
would you consider removing the back cover of the CD and give it a go in dipole mode?
I am for one very curious as a dipole lover...
"Without Deviation (From The Norm), Progress Is Not Possible" - Frank Zappa
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I — I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference." - Robert Frost
Thank You JonBocani for looking outside the box..
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I — I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference." - Robert Frost
Thank You JonBocani for looking outside the box..
Makes me weep for all those misguided engineers who saddled the things with horns attached all these years. If only they'd have known...
Jon,
Did you compare the 2" compression with a a little 3" classic cone driver for the patern, is there a big difference ? There could be a certain logic to try to compare at iso perimeter ?... and to beginn to start around 700/800 Hz to the point you like it for the Raal ?! (trying to forgett for the moment the mid bass adequation (subject of a next thread as this mid-bass subject is defintly not simple ?!)
As I really don't know how works a compression but seing that it has a lot of eficienty: I have the temptation to follow Zmyrna and even to ask if a circular H frame could as well passive EQ at the proce of a reduced efficienty ?
Why not a big Karlson tube as well for the 2" 🙂 ?
Did you compare the 2" compression with a a little 3" classic cone driver for the patern, is there a big difference ? There could be a certain logic to try to compare at iso perimeter ?... and to beginn to start around 700/800 Hz to the point you like it for the Raal ?! (trying to forgett for the moment the mid bass adequation (subject of a next thread as this mid-bass subject is defintly not simple ?!)
As I really don't know how works a compression but seing that it has a lot of eficienty: I have the temptation to follow Zmyrna and even to ask if a circular H frame could as well passive EQ at the proce of a reduced efficienty ?
Why not a big Karlson tube as well for the 2" 🙂 ?
😛
Hey guys, don't get me wrong, i never said horns were useless...
In fact, they literally saved lives (no kidding, do some research you'll discover why) i'm just saying there is many ways to make pasta.
I've been living with the hornless thing for a few days now, getting back and forth to cones as direct comparison, then trying few xover points, low, moderate, high volume... Yup. It works better than OK, it's great.
The overall sonic signature is pretty much a mix between an ATC 75-150 and a RAAL 140-15D, all combined together to deliver some very impressive 400-1.5khz.
The 1.5khz-5khz part is not bad at all, but i'm completely mesmerized by the lower mid performance from this somewhat tiny 2'' throat. It keeps the ATC dome's openness feel, while having the RAAL's ultra resolution but in frequencies the ribbon cannot touch. All packaged into something that is crazy efficient (yeah, even hornless) and that can withstand EQ corrections even at low xover point.
The strings, guys, the strings... Anything that goes close to 400-800hz is unbelievable. So full of resolution, of energy, yet open and natural. And i'm not even talking about percussions: those 950PBbe hornless are transforming the bass/midbass sonic presentation: feels punchier, faster, etc... Electronic music (IDM, experimental, etc..) is extremely impressive.
I'm just so curious now to try BMS 4599ND and similar high-end compression... The good thing is i will be able to reuse the plates, it's standard! 4x holes 4'' dia. thanks PA 😀
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Other than SPL, watt consumption and frequency response i did not test or measure anything else yet. I mean: other that subjective listening and appreciation...
My objective constatation so far:
1. The 950's diaphragm didnt break, even as low as 410hz @ 282db/oct xover @ 100db+
2. Haven't heard a single time the 950 distort or any over-excursion problem. Haven't push them beyond 110db though.
3. The 950 needs very little EQ boost between 400-500hz (his lowest limit) but i do put a massive minus EQ between 1.4khz and 3khz or so in order to get something flat. Works flawlessly. Still got plenty of gain for very high in-room SPL.
4. Maximum output for PA use (with horn) is probably 135-140db @1m, so we can safely assume i'm reducing that potential by some dBs because of the hornless, EQ, etc... So, yeah, i cannot kill dogs with sound bursts anymore, but i'm pretty sure it could hurt some smaller mammals. 😎
Did a direct comparison with the excellent 3fe22 (3'' cone, neo)...
- seems very similar at low volume, except for the 400-800hz which is much more detailed with the 950
- as soon as you crank up the volume, just a little, the 3fe22 tend to lose his track. Oh, he pushes sounds allright, just not as composed as the Radian.
- The potential total max SPL output differencial between the hornless-950PB and the 3fe22 is probably between 20db and 25db, which is enormous. There is an effortless sonic signature from the 950 that just cannot be duplicated by any small cones i heard.
- As far as directivity is concerned, and i'm talking below 5khz (my highest tested xover point) this hornless 950 is among the best i tried, including the ATC dome and the small cones. That would need to be measured, though. Seems a lot like the ATC dome, so maybe we can find the power response/radiation graph of that 75-150 somewhere, then compare with the hornless 950... Anyway, it works very well in my room.