Review of the Zu speaker at Stereophile say the XO 12K of the 2" short horned Radian compression driver sounds smooth.
XO is first order, so can we bet the 2" is hearable to 2 octoves below : 3K Hz, overlaping the 10" full range coming from Eminence ? (which is certainly beaming before off axis)!
Well this time I'm guessing if you could not do Something similar but with the Raal and the compression below ??? instead a stiff slope a first order one ?
XO is first order, so can we bet the 2" is hearable to 2 octoves below : 3K Hz, overlaping the 10" full range coming from Eminence ? (which is certainly beaming before off axis)!
Well this time I'm guessing if you could not do Something similar but with the Raal and the compression below ??? instead a stiff slope a first order one ?
Bonjour Eldam,
Well, i personnally don't believe the 'story' of the sensibility zone of human ears (1khz-3khz ?) The blind test i organized demonstrated, on the contrary, that most people are rather deaf in the midrange zone.
On the other hand, i strongly believe we're much more sensible in the 5-18khz.
Differences in DAC are much more audible on the tweeters than on the midranges, by example.
The cone driver i prefered is the Voxativ AC-1.6.
It now seems to be a waste to use that in a 4-way, but a good driver nonetheless. Pricey, though.
I personnaly have no problem whatsoever to mix technologies, as long as it works good. The final sonic result is the only thing that matters to me.
Can't complain about the ribbon/hornless CD combo so far, in fact it feels, it sounds, like a continuation of the high-end ribbon sonic signature but in the midrange, which is very interesting. Airy, extremely ''fast'' (acceleration sensation/micro-dynamics), ultra resolution, etc... Doesnt sound 'metallic' or 'bright' or annoying, but it's probably the very limit of details-resolution-vivid-sounding before someone complains that it's just too much. It's not too much, but it's a lot of intensity. But then again, i don't have a good DAC at this moment, so i'll wait before making any final judgment. Anyway, it's already great as is, which is a good sign...
Will go back tonight on a pair of 3fe22, just to feel the contrast! Sometimes, going back to something else can tell you more about what you're testing.
It now seems to be a waste to use that in a 4-way, but a good driver nonetheless. Pricey, though.
I personnaly have no problem whatsoever to mix technologies, as long as it works good. The final sonic result is the only thing that matters to me.
Can't complain about the ribbon/hornless CD combo so far, in fact it feels, it sounds, like a continuation of the high-end ribbon sonic signature but in the midrange, which is very interesting. Airy, extremely ''fast'' (acceleration sensation/micro-dynamics), ultra resolution, etc... Doesnt sound 'metallic' or 'bright' or annoying, but it's probably the very limit of details-resolution-vivid-sounding before someone complains that it's just too much. It's not too much, but it's a lot of intensity. But then again, i don't have a good DAC at this moment, so i'll wait before making any final judgment. Anyway, it's already great as is, which is a good sign...
Will go back tonight on a pair of 3fe22, just to feel the contrast! Sometimes, going back to something else can tell you more about what you're testing.
Last edited:
Hi Jon
Voxativ is too much pricey for my wallet but the Tang Band 17 somewhat could do the trick ! (Scot L's links elswhere in the tpl150 missing midband driver thread). Btw I don't give up the idea of a foamed horn for my 3.5" ScanSpeak 10F "à la façon" of xrq971 member ! (a 115 dB enable without hearable distorsion he says, but 500 Hz low end limitation instead of the 250 Hz of the Tang Band 8").... (I also remmeber tha Joachim Gerrard made a 8" FR product for one of his DIY speaker design, Alnico motor and good paper made in France after several blind test... more pricey than a Tang Band but very less than a Voxativ...).
Mr Earl should not agree about a XO higher than 700/1000 Hz, but you are in the non horn territorry at least...
looking forward to have your next episode.
PS : you should need Something like that for the speed to match the 2" : http://www.emspeaker.com/fiche_B15MKII.pdf
Voxativ is too much pricey for my wallet but the Tang Band 17 somewhat could do the trick ! (Scot L's links elswhere in the tpl150 missing midband driver thread). Btw I don't give up the idea of a foamed horn for my 3.5" ScanSpeak 10F "à la façon" of xrq971 member ! (a 115 dB enable without hearable distorsion he says, but 500 Hz low end limitation instead of the 250 Hz of the Tang Band 8").... (I also remmeber tha Joachim Gerrard made a 8" FR product for one of his DIY speaker design, Alnico motor and good paper made in France after several blind test... more pricey than a Tang Band but very less than a Voxativ...).
Mr Earl should not agree about a XO higher than 700/1000 Hz, but you are in the non horn territorry at least...
looking forward to have your next episode.
PS : you should need Something like that for the speed to match the 2" : http://www.emspeaker.com/fiche_B15MKII.pdf
Last edited:
for the past 8 or 10 years that i play with my DEQX, i have tried maybe over a thousand different crossover points, also in 6db/oct, 12, 18, 24, up to 300db/oct linear phase.. all that on various drivers, with various types of music and paired with many wines and fine alcohols... 🙂
Haven't found a single zone or bandwith that is a no-go, or that i felt i should not play with (crossing point). I believe that is a myth.
YES, a large cone beams.
YES, transducers have their limits.
But bottomline, in any multi-way speakers it's a question of which driver is doing a better job in a given bandwith. And to be honest, sometimes it's a question of taste and can differ from a music tune to another... By exemple: my Volt midbass is always excellent up to 600hz, but sometimes it's also better than ABC mid driver in the 600-900hz regions as well. Sometimes it's not.
Same story with the tweeters. For many years i had a RAAL 140-15D and the thing was absolutely unbeatable from as low as 2.2khz... Until i tried the Voxativ. Then it was kind of a battle in the 2.2-3.5khz zone. Which one was better? Can't really say. Both excellent, but different sonic presentation.
The good thing with something like a DEQX is you can switch from presets and have instant comparison. That alone tells a lot on differences. Most of the time it's not that black and white.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Ladies & gentlemans, here is a hornless FaitalPro 3fe22, with a 2.75'' throat
Well, it sounds pretty much as expected. A real good little driver, quite efficient for its size.... but not even close to the (hornless) Radians.
Does it make any difference in a domestic environment @ moderate listening volume ?
Yes and no. Feels pretty much like a Hyundai going at 180kph compared to a Porsche 911 going at 180kph: both are doing 180kph and you'll go to your destination. But it feels different somehow.
The biggest (subjective) difference is about the lower range of this bandpass crossing point of 480hz-4120hz... I had to boost the EQ on the 3fe22 around 500hz to get a similar FR as the radian 950, but even so i don't get as much energy as it should. Surprisingly, the damn 950 is MORE in his confort zone at this lower frenquency range than the cone (despite his 118hz Fs...).
And as soon as you really push the volume, or with demanding music, the little cone starts to struggle a little bit. More or less like the Hyundai trying to get passed 200kph. On the other hand, you feel the Radian will keep his cool all the way 'til 300kph without even breaking a sweat.
The thing is: most people would consider 200kph more than enough. And, yes maybe, at low/moderate volume, the 3fe22 probably delivers 90-95% of the sound of the Radian, for 90-95% of the tunes.
But then again, when compared side to side, the 3fe22 seems a bit on the ''polite'' side. Even though he's probably the less polite of his group of small cones...😎
Ok now, let's revisit the 760NEO but this time i'll EQ-torture the sh!t out of them!
Already back to the 760NEO, exact same brick-walled 480hz-4120hz crossovers.
as expected, it feels ''fragile'' below 600-700hz. I wouldnt dare pushing it too much to be honest. Radian company says 900hz crossing point (v.s. 500hz for the 950PB) and it pretty much look like it. Maybe 800hz would be the lowest (smart) crossing point for that 760NEO...
Well. At least i tried.
Still a good driver, but not as magical as the bigger brother.
as expected, it feels ''fragile'' below 600-700hz. I wouldnt dare pushing it too much to be honest. Radian company says 900hz crossing point (v.s. 500hz for the 950PB) and it pretty much look like it. Maybe 800hz would be the lowest (smart) crossing point for that 760NEO...
Well. At least i tried.
Still a good driver, but not as magical as the bigger brother.
Those recommended crossover points surely are intended for horn use not like you are using these drivers
I think the unique feature of the hornless compression driver is the relatively huge efficiency advantage spread out over a wide radiating angle.
Try this in a high output pa system and it will lose composure in short order. It does seem like a viable option where wide directivity is wanted with higher output than you can get with similar sized direct radiators. Thanks for sharing.
Try this in a high output pa system and it will lose composure in short order. It does seem like a viable option where wide directivity is wanted with higher output than you can get with similar sized direct radiators. Thanks for sharing.
Your setup is NOT hornless. There is the short horn from the phase plug and the short horn from the mounting plate. This has an abrupt termination into 2Pi space.
I don't see any advantage to this setup except short center-to-center distances.
Best,Kris
I don't see any advantage to this setup except short center-to-center distances.
Best,Kris
Actually when used without a horn they are around 90-96 db sensitive accept in a small band in the low treble and the the same with the radiation, only wide over a small band. If you use electrical eq to flatten instead of horn loading you must bring down this peak to get a usable response. Then you have an expensive 90-96 db driver that has funny radiation.
They sure are not.
They seem every bit like 105-113db, as expected. I'm switching, here, between drivers all the time. Got a 91db 3fe22 yesterday, and a 95db 8fe200 last week, and a 99db Voxativ last month. All cones. All required more gain, EVEN THOUGH i apply a major minus 14db EQ on the 950PB..
So, no. They are not going from 111db to 90-96db 1w/1m when put hornless. There is obviously a loss in the lower frequencies, but we're not talking about a 15-20db on all octaves.
Yes and no.
I discussed with the tech from Radian and, basically, they want to back themselves for warranty issues, etc... With good reasons.
So the recommended crossover points are mainly the ''official'' crossover points that won't cause warranty problem. But then again, they offer optionnal shims to allow more excursion (...without any warranty regarding the results, but also no real danger on the diaphragm..) at the cost of some loss in HF and efficiency.
POOH, you look like someone who follows rules like a good soldier. Even on planet Audiophilia. On the other hand, i'm the rebel who is doing experimentations. At the risk of blowing up Beryllium diaphragm. Enjoy the show, it's not your money! 😉
Like i said in the other thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/300713-living-hi-fi-life-120db-per-hour.html#post4917780
I'll bring all my equipement and i'll measure the in-room SPL i can get here, at listening position.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the PA people are expecting 140-145db (1m distance) at max (sustainable) wattage from those CDs...
Well, i don't. My neighbors don't and my wife most certainly don't.
Anything north of 120db is more than enough for my needs. I will end up with 110-115db at listening position and that's already plenty. Most of the time, i will be in the 90-95db at listening position...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/300713-living-hi-fi-life-120db-per-hour.html#post4917780
I'll bring all my equipement and i'll measure the in-room SPL i can get here, at listening position.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the PA people are expecting 140-145db (1m distance) at max (sustainable) wattage from those CDs...
Well, i don't. My neighbors don't and my wife most certainly don't.
Anything north of 120db is more than enough for my needs. I will end up with 110-115db at listening position and that's already plenty. Most of the time, i will be in the 90-95db at listening position...
IMHO that is what is saving your bacon right now. Normally, the loading provided by the horn would limit the excursion to safe levels. In your configuration, the loading is greatly reduced, so the excursion is much larger. Any attempt to drive this at max power would probably cause serious mechanical damage.
i'm sure what stress the most at this moment, is the brickwalled 480hz crossover point, where almost 100% of the output is starting right at 480hz.
But then again, i'm not too worried with the 950PB, i did tests before and the thing was A1 as low as 400hz w/48db octave crossover, at much higher volume than i was testing in the last few days.
That thing is a beast, really. Cannot say the same about the 760NEO, though.
But then again, i'm not too worried with the 950PB, i did tests before and the thing was A1 as low as 400hz w/48db octave crossover, at much higher volume than i was testing in the last few days.
That thing is a beast, really. Cannot say the same about the 760NEO, though.
FYI, few months ago i made a test with those shimed 950PBbe and a cheap short horn (Eminence TI2000?)
got a 120.7db reading in-room @ almost 3 meters distance... with ONE driver on 1 channel of 125ASX2.
Can't get anything close as that SPL level with a cone driver in those frequencies. At least not the kind of cone drivers i was also testing...
got a 120.7db reading in-room @ almost 3 meters distance... with ONE driver on 1 channel of 125ASX2.
Can't get anything close as that SPL level with a cone driver in those frequencies. At least not the kind of cone drivers i was also testing...
the rules i follow are called nature
i have been through with what you are doing with even more expensive drivers
let nature take it's course with you