I think I can find a way to use the Lexicon plugins by using multiple Metaplugin instances to reroute the audio, so I can temporary swap places between ambience and left/right channels etc. All insterted plugins in metaplugin only work on the left/right channel, so I need to swap channels often.
I remember @BYRTT saying that if you copy and rename a plugin dll, you can run more instances.
(I do miss BYRTT as an active participant on this forum, and some others too)
I remember @BYRTT saying that if you copy and rename a plugin dll, you can run more instances.
(I do miss BYRTT as an active participant on this forum, and some others too)
For anyone following my Reverb exercises and thinking: didn't get get the Relab plugin to take care of that? True, but the one thing that I had less of a success with is that "shuffler" part. That's what worked very well with the Lexicon (LexRoom) plugin. The Room settings in Relab can't really compare for this use.
The backdrop: Let's just say that I have way more time and familiarity with the Lexicon plugins. Their Random Hall isn't similar to the Random Hall in the Relab plugin. But there's enough ways around that (using different settings) to make it comparable and maybe even more than that. I do plan to find out which one is my most preferred solution and it will be fun to see where I end up. I still love that Lexicon sound, both of them.
The backdrop: Let's just say that I have way more time and familiarity with the Lexicon plugins. Their Random Hall isn't similar to the Random Hall in the Relab plugin. But there's enough ways around that (using different settings) to make it comparable and maybe even more than that. I do plan to find out which one is my most preferred solution and it will be fun to see where I end up. I still love that Lexicon sound, both of them.
It still is 5x5 series-parallel, but with a few coils, resistors and capacitors here and there .
The drivers have since been changed to Scan Speak's 10F 8414G10. As these drivers are quite close relatives, it did not change much for the working of it all.
The only required change was on the top end, where some capacitor values were increased due to the difference in driver impedance:
The biggest change for me was an empty wallet. (just kidding)
.The drivers have since been changed to Scan Speak's 10F 8414G10. As these drivers are quite close relatives, it did not change much for the working of it all.
The only required change was on the top end, where some capacitor values were increased due to the difference in driver impedance:
The biggest change for me was an empty wallet
. (just kidding)Attachments
Last edited:
I've found that all off this isn't without it's own drawbacks. The multiple re-routes cause some stutter in JRiver when the next track gets loaded.
I have been in contact with Metaplugin to see if they can resolve the problem. Fingers crossed that it will work out...
In the mean time I'm trying to have one instance as a direct JRiver VST plugin and run the 2 other instances (ambience) of the Lexicon as convolved IR's.
Not completely satisfied with it, as it's still a little more sensitive to slight stutter, even though I increased the buffer size for the Xonos from 50 to 500!
(it still involves 2 instances of Metaplugin)
Following up on the above, I've made some changes. I now run 1x Metaplugin and 1x Plogue Bidule. Bidule is a similar routing program as Metaplugin, allowing you to load VST and VST3 and do routing of the audio streams. I did try to do it all in Bidule, but that got me a DSP overload.
Right now it works as the host for my Lexicon VST's and neatly keeps the settings right. So one half, with my EQ plugins is handled by Metaplugin and the other half, with the Lexicon plugins is handled by Plogue Bidule. Not exactly what I wanted and I still hope Metaplugin can fix the incompatibility with the Lexicon plugs. However, as the sound works out well with these two working together, I can at least go on with fine tuning. Finally.
Had to rearrange a couple of things and it may need some tweaks still, made some human errors as well. As long as I learn from it, right?
I had rearranged some plugins and found out it made me 'feel' like I had a 'mono center' channel for lack of a better explanation. What happened is I got a timing difference between center and sides before putting them back together again. Weird effect! I still had Stereo, great depth actually but fine nuances in and around the center all seemed to come from one (more fuzzy) spot. It also caused some tonality changes, those, and the nuances I was familiar with made me wonder what was wrong. It started when I inserted the Lexicon I use as Shuffler directly in JRiver's DSP banks.
Whenever I notice such an effect I grab the song: "Raising Venus" from: Malia & Boris Blank. Just past the minute mark Malia sings: "Little red riding hood" and you hear the echo ping-ponging, first on the left, then somewhat more faint on the right. With this timing error, the echo sounded like it came from straight forward. The rest of the stage still had wonderful depth and width though.
With some routing tweaks I was able to find the error, the delay was about 0.333 ms for center panned sounds, which caused these weird effects.
I suppose it could be fun to try a 130 ms delay, as that would effectively fill up the cross talk hole at ~1750 Hz and make a large dip at ~3.7 KHz for all the panned sounds. (Just kidding) An amount of panned sound is still present in the phantom sum, which causes the effect change.
Right now it works as the host for my Lexicon VST's and neatly keeps the settings right. So one half, with my EQ plugins is handled by Metaplugin and the other half, with the Lexicon plugins is handled by Plogue Bidule. Not exactly what I wanted and I still hope Metaplugin can fix the incompatibility with the Lexicon plugs. However, as the sound works out well with these two working together, I can at least go on with fine tuning. Finally.
Had to rearrange a couple of things and it may need some tweaks still, made some human errors as well. As long as I learn from it, right?
I had rearranged some plugins and found out it made me 'feel' like I had a 'mono center' channel for lack of a better explanation. What happened is I got a timing difference between center and sides before putting them back together again. Weird effect! I still had Stereo, great depth actually but fine nuances in and around the center all seemed to come from one (more fuzzy) spot. It also caused some tonality changes, those, and the nuances I was familiar with made me wonder what was wrong. It started when I inserted the Lexicon I use as Shuffler directly in JRiver's DSP banks.
Whenever I notice such an effect I grab the song: "Raising Venus" from: Malia & Boris Blank. Just past the minute mark Malia sings: "Little red riding hood" and you hear the echo ping-ponging, first on the left, then somewhat more faint on the right. With this timing error, the echo sounded like it came from straight forward. The rest of the stage still had wonderful depth and width though.
With some routing tweaks I was able to find the error, the delay was about 0.333 ms for center panned sounds, which caused these weird effects.
I suppose it could be fun to try a 130 ms delay, as that would effectively fill up the cross talk hole at ~1750 Hz and make a large dip at ~3.7 KHz for all the panned sounds. (Just kidding
) An amount of panned sound is still present in the phantom sum, which causes the effect change.
Last edited:
I honestly haven't done anything yet with those tweeters... I've been way too busy getting my plugins back in line...
Those plugins are "my room", they represent a big part of the final sound.
As I've stolen all early reflections from the room, to an even greater degree with the filtered arrays, what I put back in the form of "ambience" is a big part of what is "perceived". It is a lot of fun to play with, so I guess I'm in no hurry.
Those plugins are "my room", they represent a big part of the final sound.
As I've stolen all early reflections from the room, to an even greater degree with the filtered arrays, what I put back in the form of "ambience" is a big part of what is "perceived". It is a lot of fun to play with, so I guess I'm in no hurry.
An update about my plugins and their use in the 64 bit environment of JRiver. I've mentioned that I had troubles with the Lexicon PCM plugins, which were losing their settings after a program restart. I investigated the use of the Relab LX480 plugin, and even got myself a rent-to-own license on it.
After getting Plogue Bidule into the mix, as a possible host for the Lexicon plugins, they (the Lexicon plugins) haven't missed a beat. The trouble was in using Metaplugin as the host for the Lexicon plugins. Hosting the plugin directly within JRiver did teach me that.
As I could not host all of the plugins I use in Bidule without running into its limits, I still run some of them in Metaplugin and the Lexicon plugins inside Bidule. It took me a while to find a stable mix, but I think I've found it now. All sessions that I have ran recently have been satisfying, so satisfying that I've canceled my rent-to-own license for the LX480.
I still prefer the Lexicon PCM Native Reverb Plugins in a direct comparison for what I want to do.
Next job is to go into the crawl space of our home (again) to replace my HDMI cable for Home Theatre. Not looking forward to that.
P.S.
On another note: I'm still quite satisfied with the Equilibrium EQ. It remains perfectly transparent when used in linear phase. A worthy 64 bit EQ plugin in my book.
After getting Plogue Bidule into the mix, as a possible host for the Lexicon plugins, they (the Lexicon plugins) haven't missed a beat. The trouble was in using Metaplugin as the host for the Lexicon plugins. Hosting the plugin directly within JRiver did teach me that.
As I could not host all of the plugins I use in Bidule without running into its limits, I still run some of them in Metaplugin and the Lexicon plugins inside Bidule. It took me a while to find a stable mix, but I think I've found it now. All sessions that I have ran recently have been satisfying, so satisfying that I've canceled my rent-to-own license for the LX480.
I still prefer the Lexicon PCM Native Reverb Plugins in a direct comparison for what I want to do.
Next job is to go into the crawl space of our home (again) to replace my HDMI cable for Home Theatre. Not looking forward to that.
P.S.
On another note: I'm still quite satisfied with the Equilibrium EQ. It remains perfectly transparent when used in linear phase. A worthy 64 bit EQ plugin in my book.
It's an advantage for me now that my son has joined the listening fun. He sure is a critical listener and reminded me that an earlier rendition of the music had a better onset of notes. What he meant was that he could (clearly) hear the plucking of the snares on the guitar while we were playing with different processing.
He missed that part in my re-use of the Lexicon plugins (as part of the shuffler).
I remember clearly what he meant, as that day we played a lot of music while I constantly changed the recipe of the mid/side EQ, cross talk cancelation and shuffler (which is a very gentle 'room reverb' in my case, 30 dB below the main peak in mid frequencies). I wanted to check if I needed all of it, some of it or nothing at all. So we each had a go at it, for me it was a sighted hearing, while my son was listening blind. he did not know what changes I made. He only reacted to the music.
Due to introducing Plogue as host for the Lexicon plugin I had changed where I put the touch of reverb. In output to disk and comparing to older stuff I couldn't see a big difference if there was one to begin with. The room reverb is just giving back some synthesized reflections after about 7 ms behind the peak that I stole from the room with my damping/absorbing panels. As said, at 30 dB below peak it is quite gentle. Studio levels if you will. I put it on the center channel only in the Plogue version, while previously I had it on top of the anti-crosstalk part, which is more of a band-passed signal that is subtracted from the mains.
Anyway, after hearing his comments, I put it back where I had it previously and... bingo! The onset of notes was back where he remembered it.
He missed that part in my re-use of the Lexicon plugins (as part of the shuffler).
I remember clearly what he meant, as that day we played a lot of music while I constantly changed the recipe of the mid/side EQ, cross talk cancelation and shuffler (which is a very gentle 'room reverb' in my case, 30 dB below the main peak in mid frequencies). I wanted to check if I needed all of it, some of it or nothing at all
. So we each had a go at it, for me it was a sighted hearing, while my son was listening blind. he did not know what changes I made. He only reacted to the music.Due to introducing Plogue as host for the Lexicon plugin I had changed where I put the touch of reverb. In output to disk and comparing to older stuff I couldn't see a big difference if there was one to begin with. The room reverb is just giving back some synthesized reflections after about 7 ms behind the peak that I stole from the room with my damping/absorbing panels. As said, at 30 dB below peak it is quite gentle. Studio levels if you will. I put it on the center channel only in the Plogue version, while previously I had it on top of the anti-crosstalk part, which is more of a band-passed signal that is subtracted from the mains.
Anyway, after hearing his comments, I put it back where I had it previously and... bingo! The onset of notes was back where he remembered it.
Maybe I should make clear that this band-passes anti-crosstalk signal is applied to the phantom center (summed) signal. There's always a bit of side information in there but it's pretty similar to applying the reverb on that phantom sum (in graphs) yet it does sound different.
No echo removal in place here.
I absorb side wall reflections. The crosstalk cancelation is aimed at the sound of the left speaker reaching the right ear and vice versa.
Loosely based on some pré work from Prof. Choueiri that he further developed into his Bacch solution.
I use 3 different "tools" together to soften up the effects of crosstalk in the absence of early reflections.
All of the above is my chosen solution, to created my prefered listening experience, together with the added ambience. In other words: My-Fi.
Not saying anyone should do what I do, but there's no harm in trying.
I absorb side wall reflections. The crosstalk cancelation is aimed at the sound of the left speaker reaching the right ear and vice versa.
Loosely based on some pré work from Prof. Choueiri that he further developed into his Bacch solution.
I use 3 different "tools" together to soften up the effects of crosstalk in the absence of early reflections.
- Mid/side EQ to fight the imbalance perceived when side reflections are low
- crosstalk cancelation that basically does the same as the above, but reacts differently when moving out of the exact center, hence the combination
- added virtual reflections on phantom center at very low levels (and with a 7ms delay), increases intelligibility and creates depth and a sense of reality (giving some back of what I stole from the room)
All of the above is my chosen solution, to created my prefered listening experience, together with the added ambience. In other words: My-Fi.
Not saying anyone should do what I do, but there's no harm in trying
.