Do that enough times and you will get to this point:
And even more days will get you to the top! Yeah!
I had sanded the enclosure while being fixed to the roof. More sanding still to be done. The baffle would need to fit all the way down again etc. so even sanding takes days of your time to complete.
Here's a test fit of the baffle:
(This is with 2 layers of mass loaded vinyl in between the aluminum plates)
OMG!!! This is beyond amazing!!!
That blip is probably compounded by a room mode/ reflection. Something like pillows on the floor/ceiling may fix that 
Looks very good!
Btw I'm the same, once dialed in abit, 5am sure comes fast
Those ugly looks at 1, 2, 3am tempers my need for volume... and especially so if it's Pink Floyd that's playn.
Looks very good!
Btw I'm the same, once dialed in abit, 5am sure comes fast
Those ugly looks at 1, 2, 3am tempers my need for volume... and especially so if it's Pink Floyd that's playn.
That is certainly a clean up and worth it thanks sharing, a clear step up and ready for X's take 2 round listening.
If that new HP filter is minimum phase you should have got little less weight but speedier very lows seen on group delay, but one never knows when it's you or gmad if FIR is fired up or not and square waves is peace of cake.
If that new HP filter is minimum phase you should have got little less weight but speedier very lows seen on group delay, but one never knows when it's you or gmad
if FIR is fired up or not and square waves is peace of cake.
The high pass is done with FIR filtering. I'm ready for X's new round .
Wish I could afford 50x 10F to play with... was tempted to get 50x TG9 before they totally disappear. Alas, no funds anyway... I need a sponsor (lol)
Meanwhile I'm redesigning my damping panel, waiting for it actually. Early on I explained how almost everything in our living space was slowly turning into white (wife's passion is old antique in shades of white). So the colorful poster doesn't really go well with that theme. I redid it in (almost) black and white:
Not entirely black or white, there are traces of color left...
Can't wait to see the result, should ship soon...
Comparison to the current version:
.Wish I could afford 50x 10F to play with... was tempted to get 50x TG9 before they totally disappear. Alas, no funds anyway... I need a sponsor (lol)
Meanwhile I'm redesigning my damping panel, waiting for it actually. Early on I explained how almost everything in our living space was slowly turning into white (wife's passion is old antique in shades of white). So the colorful poster doesn't really go well with that theme. I redid it in (almost) black and white:
Not entirely black or white, there are traces of color left...
Can't wait to see the result, should ship soon...
Comparison to the current version:
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That blip is probably compounded by a room mode/ reflection. Something like pillows on the floor/ceiling may fix that
Looks very good!
Btw I'm the same, once dialed in abit, 5am sure comes fast
Those ugly looks at 1, 2, 3am tempers my need for volume... and especially so if it's Pink Floyd that's playn.
I know how that goes! lol
The looks I get when I sneak into bed in the AM and she awakes...
Thanks! But I'd say it's borderline crazy...
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10F will a be a hefty investment and probably will need investment in subs too TG9FD10-08 seems a better drop in, where under sealed simulation volume 3 ltr. for both TC/TG resonance will drop 27,4Hz 
by TG9 r8 model.
Regarding funding and dreams count me in to finance cost 2 x 21,05$ the 8 ohm ones at MadiSound. Suggest yourself deal with shipping and if your wife really hooked at color white, then negotiations already tuned with a little tailwind. Why a hand offered should not be difficult to see and figure out, thanks sharing.
by TG9 r8 model.Regarding funding and dreams count me in to finance cost 2 x 21,05$
the 8 ohm ones at MadiSound. Suggest yourself deal with shipping and if your wife really hooked at color white, then negotiations already tuned with a little tailwind. Why a hand offered should not be difficult to see and figure out, thanks sharing.
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Hello Wesayso,
Congrats on your awesome speakers! really inspiring...
I have some queries about line arrays similar to yours. Seems like you are the right person to ask.
How is the imaging of high-freq sounds compared to point sources?
It is known that high-freq sounds can bloom as you move away from the lines causing imaging distortion & making a 1" source sound like many feets taller!
How is this HF source bloom compared to listening distance from the lines?
I don't think you can measure this, so subjective view of course, please.
2ndly, you have mentioned that comb filtering can't be heard. But its present & is evident from the HF attenuation. How is the quality of treble from the lines compared to a single TC9? is it the same or does comb filtering effects its quality though you can't hear combing directly. you haven't commented much on the highs' quality or I got lost in this 89 pages thread! anyways, hope you don't mind my asking.
Congrats on your awesome speakers! really inspiring...
I have some queries about line arrays similar to yours. Seems like you are the right person to ask.
How is the imaging of high-freq sounds compared to point sources?
It is known that high-freq sounds can bloom as you move away from the lines causing imaging distortion & making a 1" source sound like many feets taller!
How is this HF source bloom compared to listening distance from the lines?
I don't think you can measure this, so subjective view of course, please.
2ndly, you have mentioned that comb filtering can't be heard. But its present & is evident from the HF attenuation. How is the quality of treble from the lines compared to a single TC9? is it the same or does comb filtering effects its quality though you can't hear combing directly. you haven't commented much on the highs' quality or I got lost in this 89 pages thread! anyways, hope you don't mind my asking.
Did find some time alone today to do some measurements. Not entirely done but managed to get something useful.
Here's the difference of 2 extra damping panels vs only one.
(left channel only)
Don't judge the slopes, judge the resolution (up and down swings). The upper one is the new result.
I decided to try the straight downwards slope hence the different curve.
The damping panels do make a difference! They didn't sort out all problems nor did I think they would. But they smooth out the response and I need less correction at the problematic 60-70Hz dip (still there when playing stereo).
Subjective: way more depth than before. I couldn't stop listening. If I didn't have an 8 year old in bed I would still be blasting the music.
Another thing to note is the high pass behaviour I added. I did it so I can turn it up as loud as I like without damaging the speakers. Sort of PA mode
I noticed the big Jericho speakers from Danley were down 10 dB by 37 Hz, -3 dB by 47 Hz. So I figured if I'd adjust mine to -3 dB at 37 Hz there is nothing to be ashamed about. Of coarse the Jericho goes way louder, that's not the point. My -10 dB is at 25 Hz. Should be save to about 100 dB continuous without damage. I doubt I will play that loud though. But it is nice not having to worry as much.
The room treatments made an impressive difference. Wow!
If you haven't seen the new blind sound clips that I made in the Subjective comparison thread, there are a couple of budget drivers there that were proposed for line arrays because they don't sound half bad. They probably won't go as deep as the the TC9 but a sub would probably work. However, I was really shocked by the sound quality you can get from them when high passed at 225Hz. We are talking $0.69 cost drivers.
Great work on treatments for the room though. One of these days that will be my next project. You are a true perfectionist and your room is not going to be any different.
Nice work!
10F will a be a hefty investment and probably will need investment in subs too TG9FD10-08 seems a better drop in, where under sealed simulation volume 3 ltr. for both TC/TG resonance will drop 27,4Hz
Regarding funding and dreams count me in to finance cost 2 x 21,05$
That is a very generous offer you make there. We need more members like you on this forum (correction, I need more members like you
).But in all seriousness, I really thought long and hard about the TG9. I actually had a quote from my supplier in 2011 for both the TC9 and the TG9. The TG was double the price at the time. Not a bad offer at all. But I had used aramid coned woofers in my car and replaced them with paper cones and never looked back. So my take at that time was that I liked paper cones.
But on paper (no pun intended) the TG9 is the better driver.
Just how much better after FIR filtering is the question I like to see answered.
In hindsight I probably should have went with the TG. I'm really saddened by the idea that the TG is no longer in production. I emailed Tymphany to ask them about that fact and while the answer wasn't a straight forward yes or no it was clear enough that this is true. Basically they told me that I should contact a European distributor for a suitable replacement. Can't help but feel the TC9 won't be around for much longer too. I haven't seen anything like those two drivers that is available right now at similar cost.
The market these drivers were aimed at (Old fashioned high quality TV) isn't there anymore. The new line of drivers are getting smaller, most of them 4 ohm but some of the qualities are lost if you ask me.
Having no career to speak of right now I considered making a few lines to make a dime (a small dime considering the amount work but it would make/keep me happy anyway, I'd be doing something I love). Now I'm not so sure how much longer something like this can be made.
This is not an easy question to answer for me. I do hope Owen, koldby and Halair chime in with their views on this. I asked a lot of the same questions at some point though.
I do not notice a bloom in most of the recordings I listen to. Occasionally I get a (mostly female) singer where the voice feels a bit too big in the mix. Most of the songs I listen to seem just right. I play a lot of popular music, but I love the classic rock bands. Generally the old recordings do quite good to excellent! No image distortion, more like a time machine. Like being at the recording event. Newer songs can be fun but a lot of them are more processed compared to the oldies. One current band that feels very right with a real room presence is "Rival Sons". I really think they must have recorded in a real room. A recording like that sounds very real without bloom.
A mix with bloom I encountered was an old Tina Turner track, I'll have to look which one, probably Goldeneye or something like that.
But generally speaking I do not agree with the bloom theory I've read so much about. It could be the FIR filtering helping there. Things seemed bigger with rough EQ. Quite dynamic and even scary at times when I first had the lines up and running without a clue of what they are capable of.
Comparing to single TC9 I can't say. I've only listened to the single TC9 in mono high passed at 200 Hz with my old speakers doing the low frequencies. No stereo imaging there. I only tested high frequency extension compared to my old setup. The TC9 had to be at least as good or better for me to continue.
It did very well in that test. In mono I couldn't hear much difference between my horn tweeter + mid (from my old 3 way) vs the single TC9 having the speaker clear of any wall. I had to check sometimes to know what was playing.
My old setup was way to far apart to do well in imaging but the few times I set them up in my room they actually did quite well (surprising me), similar feel to the lines and no great difference in image size. Image consistency goes to the line arrays though. They do well on everything I throw at them.
Your next point, comb filtering. The main reason I do not talk much about high frequencies is due to the coherency of the line arrays. I do not think about tweeter region or woofer territory. It's just a coherent sound field I'm listening to. A soundscape if you will.
In my car I use a 2 way plus sub using quite good components with heavy processing. The main reason for me to change the setup in my home.
There I use the Vifa XT25 as tweeter, I suppose it is better in some regards. But I'm closing in fast... The total sound of the arrays is better. Again probably due to coherency. But one has to keep in mind there will be lots of comb filtering in a small car as well. The reason why I wasn't afraid of that, because I could make it sound good in a car, even though listening to test tones and moving your head in a car immediately shows you comb filtering is present.
I didn't test the arrays yet with single test tones. Maybe I should.
Hope this is somewhat of a useful answer. It is highly subjective. I do hope some other of the full range array owners chime in with their opinion.
Not having heard two way arrays I wonder if they do better or worse in that department (the bloom I mean). For me it was the simplicity of this full range idea that made me try it. I do not regret it at all.
Maybe this link helps, stumbled over it a while ago, other drivers used but the same basic idea:
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?245410-Yet-Another-IDS-25-Clone!-25-Fountek-FE-83-drivers-in-a-line-array
Read trough it to get a feel for the owners subjective views
.I generally try to hold back on my subjective views but fail miserably at that at times due to my enthusiasm
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The room treatments made an impressive difference. Wow!
If you haven't seen the new blind sound clips that I made in the Subjective comparison thread, there are a couple of budget drivers there that were proposed for line arrays because they don't sound half bad. They probably won't go as deep as the the TC9 but a sub would probably work. However, I was really shocked by the sound quality you can get from them when high passed at 225Hz. We are talking $0.69 cost drivers.
Great work on treatments for the room though. One of these days that will be my next project. You are a true perfectionist and your room is not going to be any different.
Nice work!
It sure did make a difference! I'll try and listen to your new clips when I have the house to myself again. But the one I'm looking forward to is the happy Scanspeak/Vifa family test
.
I'd chime in, if you guys don't mind.
It was mentioned somewhere, forgot where, but in arrays, having a "mouth" (voice) bigger than life would really depend on the recording.
A recording where the singer has his/her lips stuck to the mic, then yes, that would result in a bigger than life vocal part.
If, on the other hand, the singer recorded at a reasonable distance from the mic, also dependant on the mic, then the resulting voice part would be very natural.
As far as the combing goes, yes, it happens of course, but there are a lot of things happening as well, reflections bouncing in a room, things that happen in real life and not in a controlled testing environment, and in my room, with concrete walls, ceiling and granite floor, I swear I couldn't tell you that combing was happening (after EQ)... up to 15KHz anyway, at which point, my ears fail me.
Another factor of comb filtering is about the imperfection of the driver. Here, it's a good thing.
There's a theoretically good (or acceptable) c-t-c distance between adjacent drivers, but that's when the drivers are perfect pistons.
In reality, when the drivers are doing HF (which is more critical on this effect), they are in the situation of breakup. In fact, they are more or less bending wave devices at that moment and operating in distribution mode, which is equal to multiple sources. That said, the effective c-t-c distance is automatically reduced, because there're multiple radiating sources on each driver.
That's why every line array builder would tell you the real effect is way less than expected.
There's a theoretically good (or acceptable) c-t-c distance between adjacent drivers, but that's when the drivers are perfect pistons.
In reality, when the drivers are doing HF (which is more critical on this effect), they are in the situation of breakup. In fact, they are more or less bending wave devices at that moment and operating in distribution mode, which is equal to multiple sources. That said, the effective c-t-c distance is automatically reduced, because there're multiple radiating sources on each driver.
That's why every line array builder would tell you the real effect is way less than expected.
But on TC9FD, I don't think breakup occurs until about 8kHz, well above the critical 600Hz to 6kHz "telephone" band where a lot of our psychoacoustic clues for spatial imaging comes from. Thu may actually be operating in pistonic mode thru 6kHz. I certainly detect lobing in vertical direction when listening to my 2 driver Nautaloss with same driver. But when you step back about 3m - it doesn't matter much.
Wesayso,
Have you ever tried a convolver that uses the Volterra series math? I have heard from a professional in the sound mastering field that it produces even better convolution than 1d because it is time-variant and has "memory effects".
More info on math: Volterra series - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A product that uses Volterra convolution:
N.A.T. Gear Sampler
Maybe Barleywater or Gmad can comment of they have heard of it.
Have you ever tried a convolver that uses the Volterra series math? I have heard from a professional in the sound mastering field that it produces even better convolution than 1d because it is time-variant and has "memory effects".
More info on math: Volterra series - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A product that uses Volterra convolution:
N.A.T. Gear Sampler
Maybe Barleywater or Gmad can comment of they have heard of it.
Well you guys can argue all you want while I sit here listening to my newest CD covered in goose bumps .
But seriously, I think there's a point in what CLS says. But I also think a floor to ceiling line has the clear advantage here. Basically the further drivers add an anti aliasing effect to the higher frequencies. Look at the impedance curve of the TC9 and you'll notice a slight knee in the curve. I think above that it looses pistonic behaviour and gradually moves into a more bending wave like motion. Breakup you are talking about X, is more of a resonance. That doesn't mean the transition doesn't happen sooner. We should film it with a very very fast camera and see what the cone does. Klippel test might help?
Seems there is quite a new "wave" of interest in line arrays, found another one at htguide.com:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?42482-Pondering-an-IDS-25-Clone-(sort-of)-for-HT
(looks like they even found me and question my choice for the TC9. That choise was based on a few points actually.
The TC9 and TG9 are very close to each other in behaviour. But the TC9 had the more rising response of the both of them. In a line with comb filtering as a fact that is not a bad start. Another thing I noticed is the excellent distortion tests of the TC9. Pushing me again to that driver. I expected the TC9 to sound more natural and the TG9 to be more analytical. Pure guess on my part based on cone material.
There have been lots of times I second guessed that decision, to go with the cheaper driver but I still don't know if the differences are that big after processing.
The guessing stops each time I listen to the arrays. Only smiles from there on.
.But seriously, I think there's a point in what CLS says. But I also think a floor to ceiling line has the clear advantage here. Basically the further drivers add an anti aliasing effect to the higher frequencies. Look at the impedance curve of the TC9 and you'll notice a slight knee in the curve. I think above that it looses pistonic behaviour and gradually moves into a more bending wave like motion. Breakup you are talking about X, is more of a resonance. That doesn't mean the transition doesn't happen sooner. We should film it with a very very fast camera and see what the cone does
. Klippel test might help?Seems there is quite a new "wave" of interest in line arrays, found another one at htguide.com:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?42482-Pondering-an-IDS-25-Clone-(sort-of)-for-HT
(looks like they even found me and question my choice for the TC9. That choise was based on a few points actually.
The TC9 and TG9 are very close to each other in behaviour. But the TC9 had the more rising response of the both of them. In a line with comb filtering as a fact that is not a bad start. Another thing I noticed is the excellent distortion tests of the TC9. Pushing me again to that driver. I expected the TC9 to sound more natural and the TG9 to be more analytical. Pure guess on my part based on cone material.
There have been lots of times I second guessed that decision, to go with the cheaper driver but I still don't know if the differences are that big after processing.
The guessing stops each time I listen to the arrays. Only smiles from there on
.
The new CD I'm listening too seems to be made for these towers, very big elaborate sound field... These arrays throw such a huge soundstage (but also a small one based on the recording) it is insane. After my added damping panels the stage is wider and more embracing than before, almost beside me at times, much wider than the speaker to speaker distance, this is what stereo is about. Who needs more, well I wouldn't mind trying surround with more towers (lol).
By the way, the CD is The Gentle Storm by Arjen Lucassen and Anneke van Giersbergen.
Samples here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5jNYk9XxO4 (CD is way better quality)
and here:
https://soundcloud.com/officialinsideoutmusic/the-gentle-storm-shores-of-india-gentle-version/s-t4nSO
Lots of very unusual instruments used and a big theatrical sound.
By the way, the CD is The Gentle Storm by Arjen Lucassen and Anneke van Giersbergen.
Samples here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5jNYk9XxO4 (CD is way better quality)
and here:
https://soundcloud.com/officialinsideoutmusic/the-gentle-storm-shores-of-india-gentle-version/s-t4nSO
Lots of very unusual instruments used and a big theatrical sound.
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