Just came across this thread.
Wesayso, your project is amazing, especially considering that is not your career (but probably could be if you wanted it so) and you have a child as well. That you can get so much done boggles my mind and makes me feel guilty about a number of unfinished projects.
Wesayso, your project is amazing, especially considering that is not your career (but probably could be if you wanted it so) and you have a child as well. That you can get so much done boggles my mind and makes me feel guilty about a number of unfinished projects.
TC9FD performed as king there, any chance you would make sound clips letting us discover 50 kings
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Hello Hook, don't feel guilty, it's special circumstances that gave me enough time to do this project... after a working career of 24 years I found myself without a job. So basically next to no money to spend but more free time.
Lucky for me I had purchased most of the materials needed.
I still haven't got a new regular job, nobody seems to want to hire you if your health isn't up to par.
I'm thinking of building a few to aid in a new career combining it with the work I used to do (ICT and Engineering) but as my own boss. It will be hard enough and not what I had in mind.
Maybe I'll have to build more simple versions of this though, as building a set like I have now takes me a full year.
TC9FD performed as king there, any chance you would make sound clips letting us discover 50 kings
If I have my new damping panels up I'll see what I can do. No fancy camera's around the house with a decent mic so I guess I'll record with the Behringer mic?
Recording sound clips using my zoom recorder with an XY mic has been a lot of fun and I am glad I have it. They are a lot cheaper now - great tool. I have the old H4, but think the H1 would be just as good.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003QKBVYK/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1424689959&sr=1-2&keywords=zoom+microphone&pi=AC_SY200_QL40&dpPl=1&dpID=4133M%2BDeEtL&ref=plSrch
Cal mics work but not in XY stereo. You need to convert to MP3 and file needs to be small enough to post otherwise post elsewhere with link. Nice thing with posting as an upload here is it stays with the thread and won't be broken at some point in future.
Here is what I find works for MP3 settings: 192kbit, stereo, 40 seconds long, then wrap with zip file to allow upload.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003QKBVYK/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1424689959&sr=1-2&keywords=zoom+microphone&pi=AC_SY200_QL40&dpPl=1&dpID=4133M%2BDeEtL&ref=plSrch
Cal mics work but not in XY stereo. You need to convert to MP3 and file needs to be small enough to post otherwise post elsewhere with link. Nice thing with posting as an upload here is it stays with the thread and won't be broken at some point in future.
Here is what I find works for MP3 settings: 192kbit, stereo, 40 seconds long, then wrap with zip file to allow upload.
I had another look at my REW couch data today... looking to find out more about the added room effects, prior to me placing 2 additional damping panels in the room.
The damping panels still need to be made so it will take me a while before I can re-run the test to see if progress is made.
Here's the same couch data only this time with a filtered window showing the 20ms to 500ms response:
removing the direct sound from the equation
If I average that response and compare it to the earlier average we get this:
So the direct sound and the added room sound seem to agree quite reasonably.
The next test will be with added damping to see if I get either equal results, better results or worse...
One thing seems clear, I don't need to add an ambience tweeter to fill in the highs like I thought about
in the time frame after 10-20 ms...
The damping panels still need to be made so it will take me a while before I can re-run the test to see if progress is made.
Here's the same couch data only this time with a filtered window showing the 20ms to 500ms response:
removing the direct sound from the equation
If I average that response and compare it to the earlier average we get this:
So the direct sound and the added room sound seem to agree quite reasonably.
The next test will be with added damping to see if I get either equal results, better results or worse...
One thing seems clear, I don't need to add an ambience tweeter to fill in the highs like I thought about
in the time frame after 10-20 ms...
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Two thumbs up!
Wesayso,
Amazing build! I found it this morning and just finished reading the entire thread. What a saga...
Your skill and tenacity is to be commended. What a stunning outcome!
I would like to toss one thing into the mix for your consideration. I would strongly suggest you try switching amplifiers. Specifically, I would recommend you either borrow or build a Pass Labs Aleph or one of Mr. Pass's newer designs. You need to get a true class A amplifier into the mix as an experiment. As amplifier bias is increased the perceived sound stage depth also increases. Unfortunately, I have hunch that your Pioneer is likely hurting the overall system performance in this regard. There are many avenues to play with Pass designs whether from eBay as a kit (search Pass Aleph), or from this forum with either already built units, group buy kits, or unfinished projects found in the swap meet area.
I strongly believe you will be stunned at the difference. I know I was. I never would have believed how dramatic the differences in amplifiers was until I heard it myself. I've yet to hear any mass produced component that comes anywhere near Mr. Pass's designs and this is why I'm making this recommendation. I believe it would take your speakers to the next level and you might find many of the tweaks your playing with no long necessary due to the change in sound stage from the amp. I know you've mentioned budget is an issue and that is why I mentioned the kits on eBay.
The other one to consider is one of the First Watt variants. You speakers are efficient enough that they don't need much power. First Watt boards are offered from the DIYAudio store. I believe you will be shocked at the difference. At the very least, as mentioned above find someone near you from this forum who would be willing to bring one of the amps over for an audition. Somehow, you've GOT to hear those speakers powered by a good class A design.
Again, stunning achievement on your speakers. You now have me wanting to build a pair!
Kind regards,
Steve
Wesayso,
Amazing build! I found it this morning and just finished reading the entire thread. What a saga...
Your skill and tenacity is to be commended. What a stunning outcome!
I would like to toss one thing into the mix for your consideration. I would strongly suggest you try switching amplifiers. Specifically, I would recommend you either borrow or build a Pass Labs Aleph or one of Mr. Pass's newer designs. You need to get a true class A amplifier into the mix as an experiment. As amplifier bias is increased the perceived sound stage depth also increases. Unfortunately, I have hunch that your Pioneer is likely hurting the overall system performance in this regard. There are many avenues to play with Pass designs whether from eBay as a kit (search Pass Aleph), or from this forum with either already built units, group buy kits, or unfinished projects found in the swap meet area.
I strongly believe you will be stunned at the difference. I know I was. I never would have believed how dramatic the differences in amplifiers was until I heard it myself. I've yet to hear any mass produced component that comes anywhere near Mr. Pass's designs and this is why I'm making this recommendation. I believe it would take your speakers to the next level and you might find many of the tweaks your playing with no long necessary due to the change in sound stage from the amp. I know you've mentioned budget is an issue and that is why I mentioned the kits on eBay.
The other one to consider is one of the First Watt variants. You speakers are efficient enough that they don't need much power. First Watt boards are offered from the DIYAudio store. I believe you will be shocked at the difference. At the very least, as mentioned above find someone near you from this forum who would be willing to bring one of the amps over for an audition. Somehow, you've GOT to hear those speakers powered by a good class A design.
Again, stunning achievement on your speakers. You now have me wanting to build a pair!
Kind regards,
Steve
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Wesayso,
Regarding your speakers, two other thoughts came to mind as I was reading the thread:
1) The resonance issue on the front baffle. It would be interesting to see how the measurements would change if it wasn't all one piece. I'm not suggesting cutting it, but rather tossing the idea out there as food for thought. I remember someone recommended early on around the time the cracking happened cutting individual baffles for each driver. Do you think that would eliminate the front baffle resonance issues? Any idea what it would do? Was there a measurable difference in resonance peak between your test cabinet and the larger one? Thoughts?
2) I noticed in the pic that you experienced chatter while countersinking the baffle holes. I thought that I'd share the type of cutters that I use that are specifically designed to eliminate this problem. They are called zero-flute countersinks (no, they're not just for deburring - not sure why Keo lists them that way). These are all I use anymore specifically to address the chatter issue. It becomes very pronounced when working stainless steel and I had to find a solution for customer work. Thought that I'd share as I believe you will find this type of cutter much better. They cut aluminum like butter:
http://www.keocutters.com/search/drilldown/?categories=1754,1773
Again, amazing, amazing job! I wish I lived closer as I would love to hear them.
Kind regards,
Steve
Regarding your speakers, two other thoughts came to mind as I was reading the thread:
1) The resonance issue on the front baffle. It would be interesting to see how the measurements would change if it wasn't all one piece. I'm not suggesting cutting it, but rather tossing the idea out there as food for thought. I remember someone recommended early on around the time the cracking happened cutting individual baffles for each driver. Do you think that would eliminate the front baffle resonance issues? Any idea what it would do? Was there a measurable difference in resonance peak between your test cabinet and the larger one? Thoughts?
2) I noticed in the pic that you experienced chatter while countersinking the baffle holes. I thought that I'd share the type of cutters that I use that are specifically designed to eliminate this problem. They are called zero-flute countersinks (no, they're not just for deburring - not sure why Keo lists them that way). These are all I use anymore specifically to address the chatter issue. It becomes very pronounced when working stainless steel and I had to find a solution for customer work. Thought that I'd share as I believe you will find this type of cutter much better. They cut aluminum like butter:
http://www.keocutters.com/search/drilldown/?categories=1754,1773
Again, amazing, amazing job! I wish I lived closer as I would love to hear them.
Kind regards,
Steve
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Thanks for the enthusiastic response, much appreciated!
The more I have fine tuned my target, the less difference I experience in the extra's I had put in. I'm still thinking it is a matter of reflections but I'll take your suggestion under advice.
Member Halair who has built similar 20 driver line arrays is building one of the Pass designs (F5 I believe) and I'm very curious to hear his listening impressions.
Thanks for the tip on the cutter. No matter what I did I couldn't get a good clean result.
All other cuts, even the ones with simple wood drills in the aluminium worked way better.
I have thought about dividing the baffle in multiple pieces. There are 2 and cutting up the one that holds the speakers could be done leaving the top one as is. The test box had none of those problems.
The more I have fine tuned my target, the less difference I experience in the extra's I had put in. I'm still thinking it is a matter of reflections but I'll take your suggestion under advice.
Member Halair who has built similar 20 driver line arrays is building one of the Pass designs (F5 I believe) and I'm very curious to hear his listening impressions.
Thanks for the tip on the cutter. No matter what I did I couldn't get a good clean result.
All other cuts, even the ones with simple wood drills in the aluminium worked way better.
I have thought about dividing the baffle in multiple pieces. There are 2 and cutting up the one that holds the speakers could be done leaving the top one as is. The test box had none of those problems.
I'm not sure I would modify what you've built until I knew for sure it would be enough of an improvement to be worthwhile. They are beautiful!
What about making a second test pair out of plywood? It would not be necessary to spend time making them pretty (but you will anyway -) but rather just as research pieces that could be easily switched out. It would be interesting to see how they measure/sound compared to the aluminum. You could also compare one sheet vs pieces to see how the measurements change.
The other thought that comes to mind which was also recommend earlier is to make a second pair out of Corian. It machines easily but is expensive. BUT, there is a cheap source... When installers cut out kitchen sinks, they often discard the cutouts. While they wouldn't all match (unless you found a main distributor) it might be possible to get enough pieces to experiment with that material to see what it sounds and measures like. If it worked well, then "nice" pieces could be put on the list for future purchase when the budget allows.
Finally, one last thought would be to make baffles out of concrete impregnated with fiber mesh. I know they make concrete mixes designed for making statues and such that is strong and finishes very smooth. I would think a mixture with the material combined with glass fibers could likely be used to make very rigid and low cost experimental baffle sections.
Just a couple of ideas...
Or, just leave them alone and enjoy the music!
Best,
Steve
What about making a second test pair out of plywood? It would not be necessary to spend time making them pretty (but you will anyway -
) but rather just as research pieces that could be easily switched out. It would be interesting to see how they measure/sound compared to the aluminum. You could also compare one sheet vs pieces to see how the measurements change.The other thought that comes to mind which was also recommend earlier is to make a second pair out of Corian. It machines easily but is expensive. BUT, there is a cheap source... When installers cut out kitchen sinks, they often discard the cutouts. While they wouldn't all match (unless you found a main distributor) it might be possible to get enough pieces to experiment with that material to see what it sounds and measures like. If it worked well, then "nice" pieces could be put on the list for future purchase when the budget allows.
Finally, one last thought would be to make baffles out of concrete impregnated with fiber mesh. I know they make concrete mixes designed for making statues and such that is strong and finishes very smooth. I would think a mixture with the material combined with glass fibers could likely be used to make very rigid and low cost experimental baffle sections.
Just a couple of ideas...
Or, just leave them alone and enjoy the music!
Best,
Steve
Just read an article that made mention of DMC (Dough Moulding Compound) that I thought I'd share. Wouldn't be interesting to be able to pour baffles? Similar to concrete but I would imagine a bit easier with potentially better results.
Anyway, just sharing as mental fodder.
KEF LS50 review | Hi-fi speakers | What Hi-Fi?
I hope you're enjoying the music!
Kind regards,
Steve
Anyway, just sharing as mental fodder.
KEF LS50 review | Hi-fi speakers | What Hi-Fi?
I hope you're enjoying the music!
Kind regards,
Steve
Part 1 of my next phase almost ready. Damping panel 1 hangs (the picture frame isn't really there, photoshopped in to see how it would look).
Already a huge difference. Need to redo measurements though, that's for sure. Panel measures 1.56 x 1.05 meter.
The panel is 2" thick, mounted slightly from the wall. I'm hoping to catch the reflections from 200 Hz and up as they seemed to add to much to the overall sound.
Next panel will be thicker at ~ 3", behind the curtain in the opposite corner of the speaker. From what I can tell that should clear some of the problems in the 100-200 Hz range from the right speaker firing into that corner.
Already a huge difference. Need to redo measurements though, that's for sure. Panel measures 1.56 x 1.05 meter.
The panel is 2" thick, mounted slightly from the wall. I'm hoping to catch the reflections from 200 Hz and up as they seemed to add to much to the overall sound.
Next panel will be thicker at ~ 3", behind the curtain in the opposite corner of the speaker. From what I can tell that should clear some of the problems in the 100-200 Hz range from the right speaker firing into that corner.
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Third damping panel is finished. Now waiting for an opportunity to redo the measurements as soon as possible.
I've got 4 square meters of damping panels in the listening space. Should do something right? 1.5 m2 of 2 inch thickness and 2.5 m2 3 inch panels.
3 in total. Probably the max I can get away with without causing troubles with the missus. I'll post the results of the next measurements, good or bad.
I've got 4 square meters of damping panels in the listening space. Should do something right? 1.5 m2 of 2 inch thickness and 2.5 m2 3 inch panels.
3 in total. Probably the max I can get away with without causing troubles with the missus
. I'll post the results of the next measurements, good or bad.
Did find some time alone today to do some measurements. Not entirely done but managed to get something useful.
Here's the difference of 2 extra damping panels vs only one.
(left channel only)
Don't judge the slopes, judge the resolution (up and down swings). The upper one is the new result.
I decided to try the straight downwards slope hence the different curve.
The damping panels do make a difference! They didn't sort out all problems nor did I think they would. But they smooth out the response and I need less correction at the problematic 60-70Hz dip (still there when playing stereo).
Subjective: way more depth than before. I couldn't stop listening. If I didn't have an 8 year old in bed I would still be blasting the music.
Another thing to note is the high pass behaviour I added. I did it so I can turn it up as loud as I like without damaging the speakers. Sort of PA mode.
I noticed the big Jericho speakers from Danley were down 10 dB by 37 Hz, -3 dB by 47 Hz. So I figured if I'd adjust mine to -3 dB at 37 Hz there is nothing to be ashamed about. Of coarse the Jericho goes way louder, that's not the point. My -10 dB is at 25 Hz. Should be save to about 100 dB continuous without damage. I doubt I will play that loud though. But it is nice not having to worry as much.
Here's the difference of 2 extra damping panels vs only one.
(left channel only)
Don't judge the slopes, judge the resolution (up and down swings). The upper one is the new result.
I decided to try the straight downwards slope hence the different curve.
The damping panels do make a difference! They didn't sort out all problems nor did I think they would. But they smooth out the response and I need less correction at the problematic 60-70Hz dip (still there when playing stereo).
Subjective: way more depth than before. I couldn't stop listening. If I didn't have an 8 year old in bed I would still be blasting the music.
Another thing to note is the high pass behaviour I added. I did it so I can turn it up as loud as I like without damaging the speakers. Sort of PA mode
.I noticed the big Jericho speakers from Danley were down 10 dB by 37 Hz, -3 dB by 47 Hz. So I figured if I'd adjust mine to -3 dB at 37 Hz there is nothing to be ashamed about. Of coarse the Jericho goes way louder, that's not the point. My -10 dB is at 25 Hz. Should be save to about 100 dB continuous without damage. I doubt I will play that loud though. But it is nice not having to worry as much.
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