Hi Allen;
Thanks for your extensive response. I welcome any help! I'm very new to this, and yes, it is very overwhelming, but interesting. Just did so reading on FIR filters. Yesterday, I didn't know what they are, but today, I apparently should not be without them!
I am happy to keep you posted on my progress and appreciate all the guidance I can get.
BTW, I certainly use the system for movie watching. Explosions are jaw dropping! I have just received some ultra quiet fans for my Crest CA-18 woofer amplifier.
Your reply above has been somewhat deflating--I was hoping to plug my laptop directly into the dsp, thinking it would serve as an external sound card.
One possible solution --- ( I have to run before my wife hits me over the head with this laptop) ---I just realized that my Creative Sound external sound card, which I'm using now, has an in and an out digital optical jacks. It's seems a bit convoluted, but could the laptop be connected to the dsp via the sound card, optically?
Thanks for your extensive response. I welcome any help! I'm very new to this, and yes, it is very overwhelming, but interesting. Just did so reading on FIR filters. Yesterday, I didn't know what they are, but today, I apparently should not be without them!
I am happy to keep you posted on my progress and appreciate all the guidance I can get.
BTW, I certainly use the system for movie watching. Explosions are jaw dropping! I have just received some ultra quiet fans for my Crest CA-18 woofer amplifier.
Your reply above has been somewhat deflating--I was hoping to plug my laptop directly into the dsp, thinking it would serve as an external sound card.
One possible solution --- ( I have to run before my wife hits me over the head with this laptop) ---I just realized that my Creative Sound external sound card, which I'm using now, has an in and an out digital optical jacks. It's seems a bit convoluted, but could the laptop be connected to the dsp via the sound card, optically?
Peter,
There are many options for this but it is starting to get off topic for a full range line array thread...
The new minidsp 2x4HD has USB audio streaming although this will only allow a 2 way crossover if that is sufficient. It has FIR filtering capability but does not allow convolution like wesayso is using. You can build an FIR filter in rephase and run it on the minidsp
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4-hd
Any of the minidsp kits with I2S input can be used with a USB to I2S card although this is not an off the shelf solution.
DIYINHK has an 8 channel ES9016 DAC with multichannel USB input board, this will work with Jriver doing the crossover and EQ duties and is basically an 8 channel USB output soundcard replacement.
The other option is a pro or semi pro audio interface with however many output channels you need. Focusrite and Tascam make some nice ones that work well and have pretty good DAC's in them.
First you need to decide what it is you want to do then it will be easier to suggest a device that will do it.
There are many options for this but it is starting to get off topic for a full range line array thread...
The new minidsp 2x4HD has USB audio streaming although this will only allow a 2 way crossover if that is sufficient. It has FIR filtering capability but does not allow convolution like wesayso is using. You can build an FIR filter in rephase and run it on the minidsp
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4-hd
Any of the minidsp kits with I2S input can be used with a USB to I2S card although this is not an off the shelf solution.
DIYINHK has an 8 channel ES9016 DAC with multichannel USB input board, this will work with Jriver doing the crossover and EQ duties and is basically an 8 channel USB output soundcard replacement.
The other option is a pro or semi pro audio interface with however many output channels you need. Focusrite and Tascam make some nice ones that work well and have pretty good DAC's in them.
First you need to decide what it is you want to do then it will be easier to suggest a device that will do it.
Thanks fluid, I didn't know about the DIYINHK DAC, but it's not a plug and play solution, looks like it needs some tinkering, and maybe even some coding to update it.
I would stay away from Tascam, their drivers are a little flaky, and not updated often. Focusrite is fine, Steinberg has some of the best support out there, along with RME.
My experience so far show that Pro Audio gear has more sibilance than most home hifi DACs. I've tried Presonus, Focusrite and Art audio gear so far. They're not bad, just not as relaxing as a DAC made for critical listening only.
I would stay away from Tascam, their drivers are a little flaky, and not updated often. Focusrite is fine, Steinberg has some of the best support out there, along with RME.
My experience so far show that Pro Audio gear has more sibilance than most home hifi DACs. I've tried Presonus, Focusrite and Art audio gear so far. They're not bad, just not as relaxing as a DAC made for critical listening only.
Yes you can, most of the DSP based crossover solutions have an optical input. This can also help to avoid the build up of ground loops. One of my systems with an active analogue crossover needs to be connected optically to remove hum and buzz. It all depends on how your system is wired and grounded.
The correction and crossover EQ can be split, so the computer can perform a convolution before the outboard DSP does the crossover and EQ. Or any combination in between.
Well tinkering is something I don't mind! I have one coming in the post as we speak, already have a chassis, power supply, arduino, screen etc so we will see how much coding I need to get the 8 channel volume control in the sabre chip working, hopefully not too much.
I also have a Najda system that I built and a Focusrite Saffire 18i20 so at some point I may be able to make my own comparison.
When you need 8 channels from a DAC or interface there are very few choices available outside of pro gear. The twisted pear 8 channel DAC looks great but when you add 8 channels of I/V it gets expensive and big really fast. That is why I thought I would try the ES9016 version as it has simple I/V on board.
The Najda doesn't have the best DAC chip in the world inside it but the implementation is good and it sounds nice.
MOTU has some newer interfaces that have very good convertors and are well specced but so is the price!
I also think that it becomes harder to tell the differences between convertors in a multiway active system because there are so many other variables that change. Most will evaluate convertors in a simple passive stereo system and the differences while there are quite small. I imagine most would struggle in a true blind test to pick them out.
The phase shuffle test only a few pages ago showed just how hard it is to tell the difference between tracks and how easy it is to fool yourself when you want something to be better.
I have no issue with anyone wanting to eek as much performance out of their system as they can, but adding all of the best components together doesn't always end up being a good match. I often think some peoples idea of a 'night and day difference' seems more like 5% to me. Anyway, I don't seem to be helping in keeping this on topic 😉
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Sorry, Ronald, still off topic...
Actually, it would have been more deflating had You bought the 2x10HD and realized it would not have worked. 🙂
But your Creative sound card will work so...
Yes, I am with You on that one fluid, but I can absolutely say I enjoy my Twisted Pear Buffalo III DAC, a very worthwhile 5% indeed. It must be a 5% that matters a lot in my current rig. I only have two channels, and would really like to add at least another four. It is going to take some time to save up. And yes, I am still figuring out a chassis solution, given the size of the boards. 😀
We are really off topic here guys. Peter, post a link when You get your thread going. 😉
Actually, it would have been more deflating had You bought the 2x10HD and realized it would not have worked. 🙂
But your Creative sound card will work so...
Yes, I am with You on that one fluid, but I can absolutely say I enjoy my Twisted Pear Buffalo III DAC, a very worthwhile 5% indeed. It must be a 5% that matters a lot in my current rig. I only have two channels, and would really like to add at least another four. It is going to take some time to save up. And yes, I am still figuring out a chassis solution, given the size of the boards. 😀
We are really off topic here guys. Peter, post a link when You get your thread going. 😉
Does the minidsp miniSHARK unit do everything that is needed (FIR etc)? If so, you can add the DIGI-FP expansion board, which is plug and play. This provides optical in and out, so the poster that required this from their PC might be able to use this solution?
Maybe a little OT?
Wesayso
Inspired of your flac upload, I got the Anne Bisson album and I have a couple of comments after listening to that.
As maybe will be known I also have Line Arrays with the same Vifa drivers as Wesayso.
These arrays are very good @ placing instruments and recreate the acoustic.
Now here comes my concern when I listen to a album like Anne Bisson Blue Mind. I know it has high ranks as an Audiophile album, but I have strong reservations concerning recordings like this.
I am very used to hearing well recorded classical/jazz/folk acoustic music and also rock with use of electric instruments (Peter Gabriel Pink Floyd aso.) and I can certainly appreciate the fact that an electrical guitar or synthesizer can be placed wherever the producer/artist wants it to be...But..
I start listening to Anne Bisson and her voice is very clear, very warm and well recorded. I must be very close to her with all these details and she must be facing me. Then the piano comes in. I know she should be playing it, but how can she do that. The piano (flygel it must be form the sound of it)
is clearly further away...
So we are sitting 2 meters or less from Anne , facing us, and she is playing a piano that sounds as if is 5 meters away .
And the comes the weirdest thing : A drummer joins the session! But where is he?
Sounds like the distance is about the same as the Flugel.. well that's ok but it must be behind the piano or Anne couldn't play on it. WOW this drummer guy must have REALLY long arms as one of the cymbals are to the left of the (pretty big) piano and another is placed to the right of the piano.
Could there be two drummers? No not just two because on cymbal pops up just in the middle of the piano also. I dont even want to start placing the bass player in all this mess.
Everything is well recorded and believable as separate instruments, but when it is obvious that it is a recording of acoustical instruments (and voice) in an acoustical environment, my brain cannot accept the result very easily.
Maybe this just tells a very sad story about my brain😱
Koldby
Wesayso
Inspired of your flac upload, I got the Anne Bisson album and I have a couple of comments after listening to that.
As maybe will be known I also have Line Arrays with the same Vifa drivers as Wesayso.
These arrays are very good @ placing instruments and recreate the acoustic.
Now here comes my concern when I listen to a album like Anne Bisson Blue Mind. I know it has high ranks as an Audiophile album, but I have strong reservations concerning recordings like this.
I am very used to hearing well recorded classical/jazz/folk acoustic music and also rock with use of electric instruments (Peter Gabriel Pink Floyd aso.) and I can certainly appreciate the fact that an electrical guitar or synthesizer can be placed wherever the producer/artist wants it to be...But..
I start listening to Anne Bisson and her voice is very clear, very warm and well recorded. I must be very close to her with all these details and she must be facing me. Then the piano comes in. I know she should be playing it, but how can she do that. The piano (flygel it must be form the sound of it)
is clearly further away...
So we are sitting 2 meters or less from Anne , facing us, and she is playing a piano that sounds as if is 5 meters away .
And the comes the weirdest thing : A drummer joins the session! But where is he?
Sounds like the distance is about the same as the Flugel.. well that's ok but it must be behind the piano or Anne couldn't play on it. WOW this drummer guy must have REALLY long arms as one of the cymbals are to the left of the (pretty big) piano and another is placed to the right of the piano.
Could there be two drummers? No not just two because on cymbal pops up just in the middle of the piano also. I dont even want to start placing the bass player in all this mess.
Everything is well recorded and believable as separate instruments, but when it is obvious that it is a recording of acoustical instruments (and voice) in an acoustical environment, my brain cannot accept the result very easily.
Maybe this just tells a very sad story about my brain😱
Koldby
I am sitting about 2 meters away from
the midpoint between the two towers.
Not nearfield I would say though
the midpoint between the two towers.
Not nearfield I would say though
I heard a rule of thumb that you need to sit at least 2x height of towers away from them. Otherwise the comb filtering will be overwhelming. This is why I chose a more traditional build for my ultimate speaker 😀
Koldy, about the Anne Bisson recording...
clearly choices from the mixing / mastering team. Very often these days, you will hear drums with hi-hats panned to the right, snare off-center a little to the right, rack toms centered, floor toms panned all the way to the left and kick mostly center. Cymbals spread right to left. Not at all as in a live situation, of course.
With Anne's recordings, her voice is of course center staged, and the instruments all pan around her.
Patricia Barber's are usually a little better staged.
On the other hand, I'm having trouble finding good Peter Gabriel recordings. All my CDs seem so flat and without depth.
I think most Dire Straits have some very nicely balanced staging.
clearly choices from the mixing / mastering team. Very often these days, you will hear drums with hi-hats panned to the right, snare off-center a little to the right, rack toms centered, floor toms panned all the way to the left and kick mostly center. Cymbals spread right to left. Not at all as in a live situation, of course.
With Anne's recordings, her voice is of course center staged, and the instruments all pan around her.
Patricia Barber's are usually a little better staged.
On the other hand, I'm having trouble finding good Peter Gabriel recordings. All my CDs seem so flat and without depth.
I think most Dire Straits have some very nicely balanced staging.
Hi. Do you mean that 2m is not nearfield, or that the towers are not ideally suitable for 2m listening?
Hi All;
Thanks again for your sincere replies. Contributions like these are both interesting and informative.
Yes, my ignorance blinded me to the details regarding the miniDSP. After Allen's comment, I simply checked the picture of the rear panel and saw that the USB jack is labeled "control only".
I felt 'deflated' but I am grateful for your help!
I will start a new thread regarding my system and it's upgrades, primarily a DSP.
I made a comment regarding the use of my sound card AND a DSP seemed 'convoluted'. In a response, apparently 'convolution' seems to be a digital process...I have no idea. I am in over my head in this area, but the idea that one unit could input a CD player and laptop (in digital optical and USB, respectively) and perform crossover duty, allowing direct connection to my power amps, has got my on a hunt!
On the other hand, a recent entry once again mentioned comb filtering effects regarding the line array. After extensive research, I feel I can say with some confidence that this is an issue only when the drivers are operating as point sources, at a frequency who's half wavelength is shorter than the driver centre to centre distance. I have a tendency to stick to firmly to things I think are right, but I felt I had to get in "a parting shot"
Thanks again for your sincere replies. Contributions like these are both interesting and informative.
Yes, my ignorance blinded me to the details regarding the miniDSP. After Allen's comment, I simply checked the picture of the rear panel and saw that the USB jack is labeled "control only".
I felt 'deflated' but I am grateful for your help!
I will start a new thread regarding my system and it's upgrades, primarily a DSP.
I made a comment regarding the use of my sound card AND a DSP seemed 'convoluted'. In a response, apparently 'convolution' seems to be a digital process...I have no idea. I am in over my head in this area, but the idea that one unit could input a CD player and laptop (in digital optical and USB, respectively) and perform crossover duty, allowing direct connection to my power amps, has got my on a hunt!
On the other hand, a recent entry once again mentioned comb filtering effects regarding the line array. After extensive research, I feel I can say with some confidence that this is an issue only when the drivers are operating as point sources, at a frequency who's half wavelength is shorter than the driver centre to centre distance. I have a tendency to stick to firmly to things I think are right, but I felt I had to get in "a parting shot"
Perceval.
It was not my intention to compare staging of Anne Bisson and Peter Gabriel.
I used Peter gabriel as an example of usually NOT acoustic music where the instruments can be placed wherever the producer wants, flat or not flat...
Still I am a little surprised that you cannot find a Peter Gabriel with depth of field?
Try listen to Apr_s Moi from Scratch My Back just as an example.
Peter Gabriels acoustic is of course artificial so you cannot compare the two..
Koldby
I took the time to actually measure the distance. My bad. The distance to the middle is 3,34 meters.
But no comb effekt.
You should try to listen to a set line arrays like these you would be surprised.
Koldby
Well after measuring the distance from my listening position to the midpoint, I would say 2 m is a little close depending of course on the distance between the speakers, but if the distance between also is 2 m I would say too close to the speakers.
Peter,
view "convolution" as a mean to create a space that is not necessarily the space you listen to your music. For example, the DSP mentioned in Yamaha home theater receivers, where you can choose a local jazz pub, a church or an arena environment, is done with convolution.
But convolution can also be used to control that room that might not be acoustically treated and perfect for music listening (very few of us have dedicated rooms). So, instead of adding reverberations like if you would choose the DSP church environment, in our case, we choose to get rid of those extra reflections happening in our rooms, to be closer to the original recording space.
view "convolution" as a mean to create a space that is not necessarily the space you listen to your music. For example, the DSP mentioned in Yamaha home theater receivers, where you can choose a local jazz pub, a church or an arena environment, is done with convolution.
But convolution can also be used to control that room that might not be acoustically treated and perfect for music listening (very few of us have dedicated rooms). So, instead of adding reverberations like if you would choose the DSP church environment, in our case, we choose to get rid of those extra reflections happening in our rooms, to be closer to the original recording space.