I know from my own experience that a good 8" driven actively with a suitable bass equalizer filter will do more than enough SPL down to 30 Hz in our House.
If you drive The Loudspeaker III with a 10 W amp for the mid and tweeter, you will get a max. SPL of about 100 dB-SPL. Using the information from post #73, the 8" woofer would be just about right to go down to 30 Hz.
I would say that the acoustic center of a horn/driver combo is definitely more stable than that of a cone driver.
Regards
Charles
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The question with using one 8” woofer with dsp and lots of power for going down to 30hz and getting enough SPL, vs-a15” woofer is usually distortion (and usually needing a heavier membrane)
weltersys did some experiments and has some conclusions in general and also links to his research on different driver diameters and distortion at various frequencies and with different enclosures, and a summary here:
Distortion vs excursion?
If you really want to go serious into the distortion and parameters I suggest reading some background such as
https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/_m...linearities–Causes_Parameters_Symptoms_01.pdf
and getting the Kippel plots for the drivers you are looking at, some can go close to Xmax with fairly low distortion, it all depends as usual.
If you can live with 10% THD at Xmax (or any significant audible distortions) and WAF, space or other factors are more important this is a valid approach to take, and no one can argue with what makes one happy, usually requiring speakers with heavier membranes per Sd.
The KII Threes did an impressive job with 6 hypex amps and dsp with 4x 6.5”in a really small box, although they do sell a separate bass module to augment the KII Three.
If you like the impact and bass behavior of light, usually paper membrane woofers and keep the distortions around the noise floor of measurement at 1/10th Xmax to maybe 1/5th Xmax having enough Sd is usually the way to go, and usually requires bigger diameter driver or several smaller drivers, depending on room, setup, design, placement, etc.
The lighter the membrane is per Sd (with a good driver) it can give you that impact and bass that many like me are after, but taste in bass varies wildly. If you go down that route there is no substitute for relatively big volume boxes and large diameter speakers, for low end extension, its just physics.
For me the high efficiency just adds something to the dynamics and impact, a bit like driving a very light sports car, say a Lotus Elise acceleration and handling if you are into cars, and since that analogy was used here before😉
There are not that many commercial manufacturers that accomplish this with low and high end extension, low distortion, nice frequency spectrum that are affordable, so building your own is often the best approach if you have this vice😉
Now if you combine high efficiency, low distortion and a lot of super high quality watts you get something even more interesting, but usually that is outside the scope of most DIYer, many really good amp watts are just insanely expensive. (Lotus Elise S 😉)That being said you also need to have a lot of power to move a big membrane and even for a high efficiency speaker 16 watt SET will struggle with a 15 or even 12” woofer, you will need more power the lower the frequency, IMO.
Everything in Audio is a compromise (well maybe the Silbatone original 1920’s Western Electric setups at the High End in Munich aren’t Western Electric and Silbatone Acoustics, with Joe Roberts, High End Munich 2017 - YouTube😉). For a lot of DIYers the hypex or any other plate amps for bass, are a good compromise IMO, getting the power to the woofers and saving money on the best amp and preamp for the MT, seems to be the compromise presented for the TL3 it seems. Many choices for your preferences, esthetics, budget and compromises, the TL3 seems to be one of those not addressed much by commercial builders IMO. Intersting speculations on the driver setups though, curious what theory says and after COVID hearing what they really sound like.
Cheers
weltersys did some experiments and has some conclusions in general and also links to his research on different driver diameters and distortion at various frequencies and with different enclosures, and a summary here:
Distortion vs excursion?
If you really want to go serious into the distortion and parameters I suggest reading some background such as
https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/_m...linearities–Causes_Parameters_Symptoms_01.pdf
and getting the Kippel plots for the drivers you are looking at, some can go close to Xmax with fairly low distortion, it all depends as usual.
If you can live with 10% THD at Xmax (or any significant audible distortions) and WAF, space or other factors are more important this is a valid approach to take, and no one can argue with what makes one happy, usually requiring speakers with heavier membranes per Sd.
The KII Threes did an impressive job with 6 hypex amps and dsp with 4x 6.5”in a really small box, although they do sell a separate bass module to augment the KII Three.
If you like the impact and bass behavior of light, usually paper membrane woofers and keep the distortions around the noise floor of measurement at 1/10th Xmax to maybe 1/5th Xmax having enough Sd is usually the way to go, and usually requires bigger diameter driver or several smaller drivers, depending on room, setup, design, placement, etc.
The lighter the membrane is per Sd (with a good driver) it can give you that impact and bass that many like me are after, but taste in bass varies wildly. If you go down that route there is no substitute for relatively big volume boxes and large diameter speakers, for low end extension, its just physics.
For me the high efficiency just adds something to the dynamics and impact, a bit like driving a very light sports car, say a Lotus Elise acceleration and handling if you are into cars, and since that analogy was used here before😉
There are not that many commercial manufacturers that accomplish this with low and high end extension, low distortion, nice frequency spectrum that are affordable, so building your own is often the best approach if you have this vice😉
Now if you combine high efficiency, low distortion and a lot of super high quality watts you get something even more interesting, but usually that is outside the scope of most DIYer, many really good amp watts are just insanely expensive. (Lotus Elise S 😉)That being said you also need to have a lot of power to move a big membrane and even for a high efficiency speaker 16 watt SET will struggle with a 15 or even 12” woofer, you will need more power the lower the frequency, IMO.
Everything in Audio is a compromise (well maybe the Silbatone original 1920’s Western Electric setups at the High End in Munich aren’t Western Electric and Silbatone Acoustics, with Joe Roberts, High End Munich 2017 - YouTube😉). For a lot of DIYers the hypex or any other plate amps for bass, are a good compromise IMO, getting the power to the woofers and saving money on the best amp and preamp for the MT, seems to be the compromise presented for the TL3 it seems. Many choices for your preferences, esthetics, budget and compromises, the TL3 seems to be one of those not addressed much by commercial builders IMO. Intersting speculations on the driver setups though, curious what theory says and after COVID hearing what they really sound like.
Cheers
I'm bumping this thread after having read through every post on here.
I'm seriously considering building a TS-III. Some of the comments on here got me a little discouraged, there are some fair points, and some subjective points.
I had singled the TS-III out as a set of speakers that would set me for the next few decades. I'd use it to listen to music at low volume in a small room (4,5meters by 3meters). I contacted Troels and he advised on the TS-III based on my room plan and requirements, (great low volume performance, details across the range, excellent bass response and excellent sound dispersion). The Hypex plate would allow me to tune the speakers to my room to avoid room gain (they'd be placed in corners), and the 15W per channel requirements would mean I could drive them with the Tubelab SSE with KT88s I'm currently building. The speakers would accomodate bigger rooms as I get on with my life and move from my current place, which I'm sharing with 3 other people. I don't want to find out that my speakers won't fit a bigger place later on.
Now if you tell me I have better options in the 2500-3000euros range, I'd happily consider them, but after asking around, I didn't get any better recommendations that from Troels directly. I'd like for someone to prove me wrong. Not trying to derail this thread, just curious.
I'm seriously considering building a TS-III. Some of the comments on here got me a little discouraged, there are some fair points, and some subjective points.
I had singled the TS-III out as a set of speakers that would set me for the next few decades. I'd use it to listen to music at low volume in a small room (4,5meters by 3meters). I contacted Troels and he advised on the TS-III based on my room plan and requirements, (great low volume performance, details across the range, excellent bass response and excellent sound dispersion). The Hypex plate would allow me to tune the speakers to my room to avoid room gain (they'd be placed in corners), and the 15W per channel requirements would mean I could drive them with the Tubelab SSE with KT88s I'm currently building. The speakers would accomodate bigger rooms as I get on with my life and move from my current place, which I'm sharing with 3 other people. I don't want to find out that my speakers won't fit a bigger place later on.
Now if you tell me I have better options in the 2500-3000euros range, I'd happily consider them, but after asking around, I didn't get any better recommendations that from Troels directly. I'd like for someone to prove me wrong. Not trying to derail this thread, just curious.
Hi Calmant, i am a music listener and experimenter, and my knowledge and experience is small compared to many posters.
Be sure, this is a subjective choice, hardly two people will agree on the same answer, but that's not because they are all wrong.
I built TG's Fusion BAD and use a valve amp to power mid and treble and Hypex on the bass. you can find my build on TG's pages.
In my opinion the Fusions are a good box speaker, but lots of these folk on the thread are going way outside that realm and have the knowledge to do so.
But for me, i needed a thoroughly reliable design and support in build. TG and Janzen gave me that support and comfort.
By the way, after the initial pleasure of hearing good sound from something i had built much tuning of the room and DSP made a massive difference as well.
I would say the speaker offered 60% of its potential initially and the rest came from room treatment, DSP on the bass and bedding in. Its all on TG's site, read the whole site 3 times to get that thoroughly in your head (you will find all sorts of pointers) before making a choice!
TL111 is big, but if it had been there when i chose i might have done that.
How much do you know, what else have you heard that you like?
If you don't wish to start small and experiment and learn i would choose something well supported and reliable. perhaps you will only get 95-100% but that's a whole lot better than a way out choice and 60%
Good listening and fun building whatever you chose,
Mike
Be sure, this is a subjective choice, hardly two people will agree on the same answer, but that's not because they are all wrong.
I built TG's Fusion BAD and use a valve amp to power mid and treble and Hypex on the bass. you can find my build on TG's pages.
In my opinion the Fusions are a good box speaker, but lots of these folk on the thread are going way outside that realm and have the knowledge to do so.
But for me, i needed a thoroughly reliable design and support in build. TG and Janzen gave me that support and comfort.
By the way, after the initial pleasure of hearing good sound from something i had built much tuning of the room and DSP made a massive difference as well.
I would say the speaker offered 60% of its potential initially and the rest came from room treatment, DSP on the bass and bedding in. Its all on TG's site, read the whole site 3 times to get that thoroughly in your head (you will find all sorts of pointers) before making a choice!
TL111 is big, but if it had been there when i chose i might have done that.
How much do you know, what else have you heard that you like?
If you don't wish to start small and experiment and learn i would choose something well supported and reliable. perhaps you will only get 95-100% but that's a whole lot better than a way out choice and 60%
Good listening and fun building whatever you chose,
Mike
Thanks for your answer Mike! I did see your build over at Troels' website, a very nicely made set of speakers, congrats on those.
Reliability and support is what I'm after as I'm jumping the gun and going all in straight out the gates. Paul Carmody's design weren't cutting it for me. I liked Troels' website immediately, and the fact that he's based in Europe made its projects more relatable as well actually.
The thing is, I haven't actually heard anything else before. No one, and I mean absolutely no one in my circles, whether friends or family, has any interest in hi-fi whatsoever. I used to have a pair of old Pioneer 3-ways (found them in a recycling center, I kid you not) hooked up to my dad's old amp (unknown brand, it would crack when I was turning the volume knob). I know have a pair of KRK G5 classic active speakers that are in a bookshelf right next to where I sit when I'm relaxing in my room. I bought them ten years ago and haven't upgraded since (I actually find them amazing sounding, so I can't imagine what it's gonna be like to take such a big step up!!). I added a small DAC to the setup very recently.
In Brussels, hi-fi stores are terrible, cold and unwelcoming, give bad advice and are basically trying to have you shell out as much as possible, the usual. I'm fairly young (25), and whenever I step foot into one of these stores, I'm treated very poorly, as though I don't even have enough money to buy a set of cables (which I am, based on the cables they're selling).
So the basic idea is, as I've saved up some amount of money, (I'm a visual artist and I just sold a very big project after struggling all year due to covid), that I should finally invest in something that will wow me. I've ramped up my budget several times, and set my eyes on the TL-III. Going in blind will probably baffle other members, but I mean, what's the worst that can happen? I'm sure these speakers will sound so nice compared to what I now have that I'll consider them endgame.
The only issue I have with the TL-III is that they're a little ugly. Hopefully I can redesign them and have them look at lot nicer, as apparently there's some wiggle room for cabinet design.
My absolute preference would have been one of those beautiful fullrangers with big square cabinets. Something that I could drive with a low-wattage SET amp, (I'm building a Tubelab SSE destined for the TL-III). But from what I gathered, I'll probably be a little disappointed with their bass response and tendency to be very directional. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong, and I might end up going for fullrangers over the TL-III if I can get the very best possible.
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Hi Calmant,
If I understand it correctly you have 15 watts of amplification with KT88, probably ultra linear or pentode, correct? So you are in the SET range of power with less midrange “focus” and better highs and lows for a tube, I assume, likely wanting more "full rangeness" than typical SET but the bit of warmth of tubes.
Here it becomes quite tricky, either you go with the typical full range speaker often in a horn, plus powered woofers, which can be really hard to integrate properly, or you will have to look at high efficiency muliple driver unit speakers, which are rare IMO.
The issue is also that there are far fewer DIY resources available in Europe, especially ones that a few people have built. One usually goes the route of buying a Klipsch, VOTT, JBL etc. and redoing the crossover, usually in the classic HIFI and SET crowd. Most people having done good DIY horns, e.g. Odeon, Hornmanufaktur, A23, etc. become commercial.
The only other speakers that are available as a kit that I have heard of that you might like that will have 92-95db efficiency (with good low end extension and decent frequency response) might be the Humble Hifi Calpamos, maybe looking at the 3 way version. It will not be powered unless you add a plate amp and will likely take you to around 37hz F3 website. (It has the Faital 15PR400, which is good and inexpensive but IMO mostly goes down to the 40s, maybe room placement plus X)
With only 15w you will need to get something powering the bass to have a good low end. Unless you build huge huge horns and even then more power is better in the bass unless they approach western electric horns��
I think there is so much excitement about the TL3 because there are very few high efficiency horns (relative HE, over 92db) that are not just something for SET lovers, meaning mid range emphasized, big dips in frequency response and a lot of coloration and lacking what we expect in a high end speaker minus the lifelessness.
If you have a chance go listen to some horn speakers, maybe Klipsch Forte/Cornwall or a JBL (should still be possible during the pandemic) and see if you like the compression driver horn. It is quite a different sound. Most often more transparent, dynamic and directional, but a bit odd because you don’t get the sound of domes and less interaction with the walls so they can sound unnatural, meaning your used to domes and wall interactions��. Horns can be shouty if not implemented correctly and soundstage is different, often somewhat smaller compared to the best dome implementations. Horns for me are also preferred for social listening when more than one person is on the couch, or you want to move your head��, but this also depends, and I also like how they pass on the sound of tube amplification and fill a room with sound. Depends on what you like. Horn speakers have the disadvantage of size, lack of ultra high end unless 4-way, and tricky integration and problems with time alignment unless you adopt something like Troels did in TL3 or more caps.
Also, if you have a chance also try to see if you can find an acoustically aligned speaker Thiel, Vandersteen, etc to listen to and if that is a must have or not.
If you prefer the dome tweeters there are more options, 3WC 15, DTQWT from Troels and many others, especially SBA, Faital or Scanspeak, e.g. AOS in Munich, builds that are high efficiency. If you like horns, with a kit and assistance by someone with a name in the industry there are few choices for less than 3K that aren’t focused on PA sound and application. Humble Hifi kind of comes to mind (UK be careful Brexit taxes savings and costs), or buy something used, e.g Odeon, Klipsch, VOTT, JBL..
From what I see this speaker, as previously stated, seems to be ideal for someone with a good tube amp or good Class A SS amp with less than 100W, who wants to have a full range speaker, with very good impact and attack that you get with horns and high efficiency paper drivers, which also can go down to 30hz F3 powered by a plate-amp, with superb transparency and well integrated drivers and crossover. The focus as usual is high fidelity and correct reproduction of instruments. And abillity to resolve at low volume.
The “thing” I keep hearing about the TL3 is the transparency and the integration of drivers and coherent and natural sound being incredibly impressive. Haven’t heard about Soundstage. Unfortunately due to COVID it will be tricky to actually listen to one, not that it was easy before, either you needed to befriend someone and then travel and reciprocate the offer. Someone mentioned they heard the TL2, (I “only” heard a TL1 with 50W+ and 300W+), and ask them regarding their experience.
A good starting point is often knowing what type of commercial speakers you like, unfortunately till the fall of 2021 all High Fi shows are closed. What do you want to recreate? I think the main downside to the speaker seems to be the unusual front panel that some may not like, check with the wife first�� I like it a lot, its unique and functional and fairly easy to build, or get covers. Else this like most of Troels top of the page builds are usually end of the line speakers and will make you examine your electronics for a long time first. ��
Just don't get a horn speaker if you want dome low efficiency HiFi speaker sound and not buy a bigger amp 😉
Hope this helps. I myself am also curious what other European DIY full range speakers exist that cater to valve, preferably PP amps, I am mostly (a bit) familiar with the UK and German and Italian speaking areas of Europe , but maybe there is much more out there.
Good Luck
If I understand it correctly you have 15 watts of amplification with KT88, probably ultra linear or pentode, correct? So you are in the SET range of power with less midrange “focus” and better highs and lows for a tube, I assume, likely wanting more "full rangeness" than typical SET but the bit of warmth of tubes.
Here it becomes quite tricky, either you go with the typical full range speaker often in a horn, plus powered woofers, which can be really hard to integrate properly, or you will have to look at high efficiency muliple driver unit speakers, which are rare IMO.
The issue is also that there are far fewer DIY resources available in Europe, especially ones that a few people have built. One usually goes the route of buying a Klipsch, VOTT, JBL etc. and redoing the crossover, usually in the classic HIFI and SET crowd. Most people having done good DIY horns, e.g. Odeon, Hornmanufaktur, A23, etc. become commercial.
The only other speakers that are available as a kit that I have heard of that you might like that will have 92-95db efficiency (with good low end extension and decent frequency response) might be the Humble Hifi Calpamos, maybe looking at the 3 way version. It will not be powered unless you add a plate amp and will likely take you to around 37hz F3 website. (It has the Faital 15PR400, which is good and inexpensive but IMO mostly goes down to the 40s, maybe room placement plus X)
With only 15w you will need to get something powering the bass to have a good low end. Unless you build huge huge horns and even then more power is better in the bass unless they approach western electric horns��
I think there is so much excitement about the TL3 because there are very few high efficiency horns (relative HE, over 92db) that are not just something for SET lovers, meaning mid range emphasized, big dips in frequency response and a lot of coloration and lacking what we expect in a high end speaker minus the lifelessness.
If you have a chance go listen to some horn speakers, maybe Klipsch Forte/Cornwall or a JBL (should still be possible during the pandemic) and see if you like the compression driver horn. It is quite a different sound. Most often more transparent, dynamic and directional, but a bit odd because you don’t get the sound of domes and less interaction with the walls so they can sound unnatural, meaning your used to domes and wall interactions��. Horns can be shouty if not implemented correctly and soundstage is different, often somewhat smaller compared to the best dome implementations. Horns for me are also preferred for social listening when more than one person is on the couch, or you want to move your head��, but this also depends, and I also like how they pass on the sound of tube amplification and fill a room with sound. Depends on what you like. Horn speakers have the disadvantage of size, lack of ultra high end unless 4-way, and tricky integration and problems with time alignment unless you adopt something like Troels did in TL3 or more caps.
Also, if you have a chance also try to see if you can find an acoustically aligned speaker Thiel, Vandersteen, etc to listen to and if that is a must have or not.
If you prefer the dome tweeters there are more options, 3WC 15, DTQWT from Troels and many others, especially SBA, Faital or Scanspeak, e.g. AOS in Munich, builds that are high efficiency. If you like horns, with a kit and assistance by someone with a name in the industry there are few choices for less than 3K that aren’t focused on PA sound and application. Humble Hifi kind of comes to mind (UK be careful Brexit taxes savings and costs), or buy something used, e.g Odeon, Klipsch, VOTT, JBL..
From what I see this speaker, as previously stated, seems to be ideal for someone with a good tube amp or good Class A SS amp with less than 100W, who wants to have a full range speaker, with very good impact and attack that you get with horns and high efficiency paper drivers, which also can go down to 30hz F3 powered by a plate-amp, with superb transparency and well integrated drivers and crossover. The focus as usual is high fidelity and correct reproduction of instruments. And abillity to resolve at low volume.
The “thing” I keep hearing about the TL3 is the transparency and the integration of drivers and coherent and natural sound being incredibly impressive. Haven’t heard about Soundstage. Unfortunately due to COVID it will be tricky to actually listen to one, not that it was easy before, either you needed to befriend someone and then travel and reciprocate the offer. Someone mentioned they heard the TL2, (I “only” heard a TL1 with 50W+ and 300W+), and ask them regarding their experience.
A good starting point is often knowing what type of commercial speakers you like, unfortunately till the fall of 2021 all High Fi shows are closed. What do you want to recreate? I think the main downside to the speaker seems to be the unusual front panel that some may not like, check with the wife first�� I like it a lot, its unique and functional and fairly easy to build, or get covers. Else this like most of Troels top of the page builds are usually end of the line speakers and will make you examine your electronics for a long time first. ��
Just don't get a horn speaker if you want dome low efficiency HiFi speaker sound and not buy a bigger amp 😉
Hope this helps. I myself am also curious what other European DIY full range speakers exist that cater to valve, preferably PP amps, I am mostly (a bit) familiar with the UK and German and Italian speaking areas of Europe , but maybe there is much more out there.
Good Luck
Again, a careful read will tell you a lot about what you can and cannot change, read carefully and ask Troels if you get stuck, he is a busy man but helpful, i read and changed only things that wouldn't spoil anything. I liked my external changes. you have to decide about the risk you can take. for me, i went proven and reliable but know they are pretty good without having to become knowledgeable or golden ears first.........M
@ calmant:
Before pulling the trigger, I'd advice trying to gather some listening experiences.
Wrt "beautiful fullrangers in big square cabinets": these are actually never really "fullrange" in HiFi terms, often lacking real bass or treble (or both). Unless you fall for the "fullrange sound" which is subjective after all.
In my opinion, instead TL-III, the classic 3way-15 is a safer choice, and probably a bit more neutral sounding.
Besides, the enclosure is less complex.
You could start with the higher efficiency 3way classic with your tube amp; future options to drive the bass speaker separately combined with DSP.
So in general: gather the necessary experience with the "easier" 3way classic, and see what you can do with it in the future, dependant on room conditions and so on.
Before pulling the trigger, I'd advice trying to gather some listening experiences.
Wrt "beautiful fullrangers in big square cabinets": these are actually never really "fullrange" in HiFi terms, often lacking real bass or treble (or both). Unless you fall for the "fullrange sound" which is subjective after all.
In my opinion, instead TL-III, the classic 3way-15 is a safer choice, and probably a bit more neutral sounding.
Besides, the enclosure is less complex.
You could start with the higher efficiency 3way classic with your tube amp; future options to drive the bass speaker separately combined with DSP.
So in general: gather the necessary experience with the "easier" 3way classic, and see what you can do with it in the future, dependant on room conditions and so on.
It's hard to say what a "better" option really means, but I'd suggest you take a look at the Open Source Monkey Coffin. It's a bit smaller than The Loudspeaker III, and it fits your budget.
See here: GitHub - mbrennwa/osmcdoc: Documentation for the Open Source Monkey Coffin
And here: osmcdoc/osmc_paper.pdf at master * mbrennwa/osmcdoc * GitHub
And here: Open Source Monkey Box
Cosmetics are very personal and if important to you get them right if you plan on looking at them for a long time 😉
Maybe have a look at something like these
Taipuu Speakers DSP active speakers - Taipuu Speakers
A good quality coaxial 15" driver from BMS or similar could form the basis of a pretty good speaker for not a huge amount of money with a Hypex plate amp a decent crossover with some room for in room tonal tweaking a compensation for room modes could be realised DIY if you can measure.
Troels does know how to make a good sounding and measuring speaker with well integrated crossover. Most of the comments made on the speaker design are valid but the compromises have been made for a reason.
There are some really well measuring studio monitors from Neumann, Genelec and ADAM that could form the basis of a good system if paired with some subwoofers and a little EQ in some cases. With the near field scanner measurements on Audio Science Review working out anechoic based EQ for those is now a reality.
Hi Calamut,
Just reading your comments while I was being approved. Be aware the TL3 will require the 6? degree tilted horn and the midrange driver above that is set back. As far as I remember the width can vary a little but the crucial elements need to remain and cannot be altered. Make sure to run any design by Troels before building. For most speakers if you change baffle dimensions you need a different crossover.
I don’t understand what you mean with the big box full range speakers. This covers a lot. So something like fluid suggested., a coaxial or fullrange driver above and below a big powered bass driver?
As mentioned several times, as far as you can legally do it during covid, try to listen to the following.
A full range speaker, meaning single driver, if you like them at all. They are a compromise, mainly they are really cheap and as mentioned before they lack low end and highs, also the usual airy quality many of us seek is lacking and a whizzer like HF or tizziness. The frequency bands are usually not very good but on the positive they give you the point source of sound. See if that is what you want. Very few people want that compared to multi-ways. Also usually very little in terms of surface area of drivers to give you impact or any bass. Finding someone local who did a diy version should be easy. Just go on ebay private listings. That is also a good way to listen to speakers if you want to avoid the high end stores. Full range drivers are not really high fidelity but let you play around with cabinets. If you care almost exclusively about midrange, maybe an option.
Try listening to a Horn Speaker, go listen to some used Klipsch, or JBLs should be easy.
Listening to Coax is more difficult. Maybe you can find someone selling a Tannoy setup.
Coax is more expensive but superior if done correctly in most cases compared to regular full range even something like the excellent full range Voxativ’s are a bit tizzy in the HF compared to good domes.
Seeing you want a flat front baffle:
You might go with the Humble Hifi Calpamos http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble Homemade Hifi_Calpamos.pdf
You can listen to them on youtube
Humble Homemade Hifi Loudspeakers - YouTube
But the other suggestion from fluid for a coax with active woofer in a box could be good. I’m not sure who offers good DIY kits though. Maybe ask fluid or look here on site.
If you look at Troels, you might want to look at the 3wc-15 and the DTQWT. The DTQWT is probably the only speaker so far where you would be happy running everything from one amp with only 15W.
The way it is built even a SET amp can power the 12” driver, goes to about 38hz F3 when we measured it. Not super transparent compared to horns but similar dynamics and impact.
The 3WC 15 sounds a bit like the ACT or Splendor speakers, but the few that have heard them suggested going with the dome tweeter and not beryllium option unless you have a very good chain in front. The soft dome is more pleasant and less expensive!
For me the least important thing is looks (well better said I don’t usually like small stand mounts, and like horns and big speakers), but in reality for most (or at least their wives), looks play an important part.
I would strongly suggest having a rough idea what you want before building.
GoodLuck
Just reading your comments while I was being approved. Be aware the TL3 will require the 6? degree tilted horn and the midrange driver above that is set back. As far as I remember the width can vary a little but the crucial elements need to remain and cannot be altered. Make sure to run any design by Troels before building. For most speakers if you change baffle dimensions you need a different crossover.
I don’t understand what you mean with the big box full range speakers. This covers a lot. So something like fluid suggested., a coaxial or fullrange driver above and below a big powered bass driver?
As mentioned several times, as far as you can legally do it during covid, try to listen to the following.
A full range speaker, meaning single driver, if you like them at all. They are a compromise, mainly they are really cheap and as mentioned before they lack low end and highs, also the usual airy quality many of us seek is lacking and a whizzer like HF or tizziness. The frequency bands are usually not very good but on the positive they give you the point source of sound. See if that is what you want. Very few people want that compared to multi-ways. Also usually very little in terms of surface area of drivers to give you impact or any bass. Finding someone local who did a diy version should be easy. Just go on ebay private listings. That is also a good way to listen to speakers if you want to avoid the high end stores. Full range drivers are not really high fidelity but let you play around with cabinets. If you care almost exclusively about midrange, maybe an option.
Try listening to a Horn Speaker, go listen to some used Klipsch, or JBLs should be easy.
Listening to Coax is more difficult. Maybe you can find someone selling a Tannoy setup.
Coax is more expensive but superior if done correctly in most cases compared to regular full range even something like the excellent full range Voxativ’s are a bit tizzy in the HF compared to good domes.
Seeing you want a flat front baffle:
You might go with the Humble Hifi Calpamos http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble Homemade Hifi_Calpamos.pdf
You can listen to them on youtube
Humble Homemade Hifi Loudspeakers - YouTube
But the other suggestion from fluid for a coax with active woofer in a box could be good. I’m not sure who offers good DIY kits though. Maybe ask fluid or look here on site.
If you look at Troels, you might want to look at the 3wc-15 and the DTQWT. The DTQWT is probably the only speaker so far where you would be happy running everything from one amp with only 15W.
The way it is built even a SET amp can power the 12” driver, goes to about 38hz F3 when we measured it. Not super transparent compared to horns but similar dynamics and impact.
The 3WC 15 sounds a bit like the ACT or Splendor speakers, but the few that have heard them suggested going with the dome tweeter and not beryllium option unless you have a very good chain in front. The soft dome is more pleasant and less expensive!
For me the least important thing is looks (well better said I don’t usually like small stand mounts, and like horns and big speakers), but in reality for most (or at least their wives), looks play an important part.
I would strongly suggest having a rough idea what you want before building.
GoodLuck
Thanks for having taken the time to answer my post! I will go and have a listen to a horn based system and see for myself.
Indeed, full range aren't for me, I just like the look of a single driver in a big enclosure. But it won't do, and I have no way of ever hearing a full range unless I just buy one.
As to TL-III, I did contact Troels about using the SSE as my main amp. He replied that as long as it was able to output 15W, I was good to go, and that bass response will be handled by the Hypex so I don't have to worry in that department, as long as my amp produces a clean signal.
I chose my amplifier parts so that it will fulfill Troels' stated requirements. I was told it's plenty capable of output 15W and more with KT88s. It will do the trick nicely I think. I'll wait a little more and build a nice SS amp of a more powerful tube amp if I feel like I'm missing something.
He's already been very helpful with my questions. I try to keep my emails quick and easy to answer so I don't bother him too much. I'll send him a proposed design for enclosures based on his advices on what's possible with the TL-III. The most important part is the horn tilt and the recessed medium woofer. Apart from that, I may be able to make them look like something I'd like to live with! (Ditching the mess screen).
I've considered the 3-way classic, but I've read that it's a little lacking in the bass department. Adding an Hypex plate to the subwoofer might be worthwhile to make sure it extends well.
But what do you mean by 'it's more neutral sounding' than the TL-III? Do you mean that the 3-way will produce a sound I'm more used to, never having heard horns?
I'm not afraid of the complexity of the TL-III cabinet. I have access to a CNC facility, wood workshop, I have people around me who have the tools and knowledge. I'll build it slowly over time, making sure I'm not doing anything wrong.
I did have a look, it truly is an amazing project and I love how those look. Congratulations on this one, I had a blast reading through the thread, and learned a lot.
But the fact remains, it's somewhat a little more expensive that TL-III, and the TL-III bass reponse seems better due to the plate-amp.
By better I just meant the more bang for my buck. That's why I want to go the DIY route: invest 2500euros and end up with a speaker that beats 25.000€ overpriced tower.
The 15" driver is an 'add on' in this design, as it simply 'handles' the bass. Otherwise this is an 8" waveguide two-way. Conventionally, the subs would be placed independently of the mains. Also 15" drivers are used in some of the better waveguide two-ways to bring the narrow directivity down below 1kHz, but this one is only for show.
Hoping this outlines some of the options in front of you.
Hoping this outlines some of the options in front of you.
When you know the sound of horns and like it, go for it.
Personally, I immediately hear the coloration each horn system adds to the sound, even when very slight. Being used to live sound of acoustic instruments I prefer direct radiators.
Almost, but not really. Troels usually uses relative shallow slopes with a xo point typically in the 250-500Hz range between the woofer and midrange and I think TL3 is not different in this respect. So the 15" in this design is not just a sub, but it does the upper bass and some lower-midrange too, depends on the actual design. This makes it much harder to integrate if someone wants to separate the 15" and use it at different location in the room, farther to the midrange than originally intended.
Conceptually, it makes no difference to my point.
If someone wanted to do it to this speaker, then yes and I assumed what you say would be simple enough to do, as it is only crossover work and not so much acoustic design, which was my point. I was thinking about the Econowave and such generally.
If someone wanted to do it to this speaker, then yes and I assumed what you say would be simple enough to do, as it is only crossover work and not so much acoustic design, which was my point. I was thinking about the Econowave and such generally.
The Monkey Coffin certainly delivers on this! 😀
If you need more (deeeep) bass, do what Allen described: add a subwoofer with a plate amp.
Get B&C DCX464 with ME464 horn along with an 18" woofer. B&C will release a passive crossover for the DCX464 soon. Run active crossover between woofer and DCX.