"Not to back-track this thread but I wonder if anyone can tell me of a US or Canadian source for Permallli or panzerholz. I was able to buy some from a UK company 4 or 5 years ago but shipping was more than the cost of material."
@hirscwi,
I bought 8 sheets of Pz B25 25mm 400 x500mm. Price was reasonable and freight clear across US was $300.
The gentleman is a diy hobbyist but his company is professional machining. Great to work with. His name is Roger Cullen. rcullen@precisioncompositeindustries.com. located in Albemarle (sp) North Carolina
@hirscwi,
I bought 8 sheets of Pz B25 25mm 400 x500mm. Price was reasonable and freight clear across US was $300.
The gentleman is a diy hobbyist but his company is professional machining. Great to work with. His name is Roger Cullen. rcullen@precisioncompositeindustries.com. located in Albemarle (sp) North Carolina
@donhughes111
Thanks for the informative post.
Cullen is the same fellow I was talking about with the 18x18 slabs, nice to know he will do different sizes upon request
Thanks for the informative post.
Cullen is the same fellow I was talking about with the 18x18 slabs, nice to know he will do different sizes upon request
Holding 40microns total runout was not an easy task as there are some 20 different operations to machine the platter and bearing assembly and each of these operations has some error. I ended up grinding the platter mounting surface of the rotor in the mill to true it up, this was a time consuming exercise.
There is a thrust pad on the top of the rotor and a 5mm SI3N4 ball in the top of the 12mm spindle. I used a 12mm spindle because it fits nicely in the OEM bearing housing when the bronze sleeve is removed. Now I have proof of concept I've ordered some BS1407 tool steel to make a new spindle. Then I'll install the motor in my plinth and give it a whirl.
18x16" Pz will work for a plinth. This is 457x406mm. Laminating aluminium top and bottom or a thicker sheet between the Pz sheets to stiffen the plinth is a good idea.
There is a thrust pad on the top of the rotor and a 5mm SI3N4 ball in the top of the 12mm spindle. I used a 12mm spindle because it fits nicely in the OEM bearing housing when the bronze sleeve is removed. Now I have proof of concept I've ordered some BS1407 tool steel to make a new spindle. Then I'll install the motor in my plinth and give it a whirl.
18x16" Pz will work for a plinth. This is 457x406mm. Laminating aluminium top and bottom or a thicker sheet between the Pz sheets to stiffen the plinth is a good idea.
And thicknesses. He has some 104mm coming in for those who like it thick.
That might even be a challenge for warrjon.His service is great and he does what he says he will do.
As an aside, and I got the B25, It was CNC milled to perfection and the planar surfaces are perfect for glueing or painting. Nothing extra required. Although, I did sand mine lightly just to get the grime and oil off from handling.
Don
Big step.
I glued the Pz together this weekend. Like everything diy, I am always nervous how it will come out the first time. Try to be prepared. I am real happy with the seam. Good thing, there is no undoing this step.
Next is mounting the motor and TA. Then the wiring. Then I get to turn it on. That will be nice.😀
Don
I glued the Pz together this weekend. Like everything diy, I am always nervous how it will come out the first time. Try to be prepared. I am real happy with the seam. Good thing, there is no undoing this step.
Next is mounting the motor and TA. Then the wiring. Then I get to turn it on. That will be nice.😀
Don
Attachments
Looking at your Pz there are lot more layers than my Permalli.
One thing I have found with the Permalli plinth and POM platter is lower acoustic feedback. Play a CD or other music and place a stethoscope on the stock platter mat and I can clearly hear music in the platter and stock SP10 chaasis and the resin/bentonite plinth. My Permalli plinth and POM platter there is no audible music listening with the stethoscope.
One thing I have found with the Permalli plinth and POM platter is lower acoustic feedback. Play a CD or other music and place a stethoscope on the stock platter mat and I can clearly hear music in the platter and stock SP10 chaasis and the resin/bentonite plinth. My Permalli plinth and POM platter there is no audible music listening with the stethoscope.
The link offers a further insight to the usage of Panzerholz (being referred to as Tank Wood), the person being interviewed is time served in their field of work and is quite satisfied with P'holz as a material.
It does seem they may have a Board produced with additional grain orientation for the Laminations, that is increased to what a Cross Grain Structure offers.
Some of the info' shared might help with understanding the P'holz Properties influence on the management of energies being transferred to it.
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/11/interview-with-rainer-weber-of-kaiser.html
It does seem they may have a Board produced with additional grain orientation for the Laminations, that is increased to what a Cross Grain Structure offers.
Some of the info' shared might help with understanding the P'holz Properties influence on the management of energies being transferred to it.
https://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/11/interview-with-rainer-weber-of-kaiser.html
That is the B25. 41 Layers according to the lady at BKB. I think B15 has 26. I think that is for 25mm. I have no idea what the acoustical differences are. It looks cool though. 😁 The edges are perfectly smooth when milled.
There is no doubt in my mind you are on the right track managing the spurious sound/noise. Thanks for that.
Don
Don
The Link will show how the differences in Damping / Dissipation of materials have been recorded by one Technician.
Through conversation in the past, they like sample materials to be 100mm x 100mm x 10mm. The list don't give the Dimensions Tested, so it is not known if all Test Samples have been equal in dimensions. There is enough info' to show where the real differences are in the properties of commonly selected materials used for Structures in HiFi are to be found.
I am yet to be convinced it is time to omit Granite from use a Tier in a Speaker Support Base and as a Tier in a Sub Plinth Assembly for a Turntable, with that in mind, it does look like I have produced a structure that is suiting my tastes for the levels of colouration to be detected.
https://qualia.webs.com/newdampingfactors.htm
The most recent and extended investigations in materials used in structures, has proven that P'holz serves as a improved material over others used as a upper most Tier in a support structure.
It works exceptionally well as a Sub Plinth under a P'holz TT Plinth. I am yet to experience the P'holz Chassis in use yet, so maybe more to come from the usage of a P'holz Sub Plinth under that design.
I am a Idler Drive user for many years, I have been demonstrated these various versions of these Motor Designs in use with numerous plinth designs.
Not too long ago, a Garrard 401 owned by a friend which had been mounted on a Compressed Bamboo Plinth, and during the demonstration seated onto a P'holz Sub Plinth with Pneumatic Footers was the best I have any recollection of a Idler Drive in use.
P'holz used as Tiers in a assembly with Pneumatic Footers as separators, when used under a CDP and CDT, has produced a noticeable change to the sonic, that when demonstrated to a group of individuals, all present were of the view it was a betterment for the SQ.
My experience of one other separator is and a engineering type mind will see the ease to achieve, A P'holz Sub Plinth with a Solid Tech 'Feet of Silence' Footer under the TT, has in my listening environment and assessment, been very valuable as a method to gather the overall presentation, to a point, it is difficult to see where more can be attained.
The Link will show how the differences in Damping / Dissipation of materials have been recorded by one Technician.
Through conversation in the past, they like sample materials to be 100mm x 100mm x 10mm. The list don't give the Dimensions Tested, so it is not known if all Test Samples have been equal in dimensions. There is enough info' to show where the real differences are in the properties of commonly selected materials used for Structures in HiFi are to be found.
I am yet to be convinced it is time to omit Granite from use a Tier in a Speaker Support Base and as a Tier in a Sub Plinth Assembly for a Turntable, with that in mind, it does look like I have produced a structure that is suiting my tastes for the levels of colouration to be detected.
https://qualia.webs.com/newdampingfactors.htm
The most recent and extended investigations in materials used in structures, has proven that P'holz serves as a improved material over others used as a upper most Tier in a support structure.
It works exceptionally well as a Sub Plinth under a P'holz TT Plinth. I am yet to experience the P'holz Chassis in use yet, so maybe more to come from the usage of a P'holz Sub Plinth under that design.
I am a Idler Drive user for many years, I have been demonstrated these various versions of these Motor Designs in use with numerous plinth designs.
Not too long ago, a Garrard 401 owned by a friend which had been mounted on a Compressed Bamboo Plinth, and during the demonstration seated onto a P'holz Sub Plinth with Pneumatic Footers was the best I have any recollection of a Idler Drive in use.
P'holz used as Tiers in a assembly with Pneumatic Footers as separators, when used under a CDP and CDT, has produced a noticeable change to the sonic, that when demonstrated to a group of individuals, all present were of the view it was a betterment for the SQ.
My experience of one other separator is and a engineering type mind will see the ease to achieve, A P'holz Sub Plinth with a Solid Tech 'Feet of Silence' Footer under the TT, has in my listening environment and assessment, been very valuable as a method to gather the overall presentation, to a point, it is difficult to see where more can be attained.
Not playing designer. Yeah, I guess I am. It makes me wonder why it wouldn't be a good idea to to put a layer of Pz between the POM and aluminum on the TT platter to suck up noise and at the same time isolate the vinyl from the motor.
Same for the tonearm. Isolate the tonearm and put a layer of Pz for the tonearm Aluminum base to transmit noise into.
Solve the motor bearing issues and Voi'La.
Warrjon has really got me going with this turntable thing. If you get the music source nearly perfect it elevates the entire system.
Don
Same for the tonearm. Isolate the tonearm and put a layer of Pz for the tonearm Aluminum base to transmit noise into.
Solve the motor bearing issues and Voi'La.
Warrjon has really got me going with this turntable thing. If you get the music source nearly perfect it elevates the entire system.
Don
There are a couple of TT's that use Pz platters
There is some info here and they went back to bronze.
https://www.theanalogdept.com/gzilla.htm
Now I don't take everything I read and what other people tell me as gospel until I test it myself. With the POM platter what I'm trying to achieve is to get the energy away from the stylus and deal with it in the plinth. The POM/Al platters are designed to do this and to also breakup the energy, kind of like treating a room so any energy that does return to the stylus is well down in level with no resonant peaks. Adding Pz to the platter complicates the build and it's a pig to machine. So I've stayed away from it.
The other issue with the mk2 is the very small 9/32 spindle adding heavy Pz high above the pivot point/sleeve top could potentially cause more precession in the platter which could also premature wear the bronze sleeve. Adding POM to a stock platter does not add a lot of mass. The smaller the spindle OD the slower the angular velocity of the outside surface, this slow velocity in the mk2 is not fast enough to create true hydrodynamic flow of the oil and causes a stock SP10mk2 spindle to continually make metal to metal contact. A 16mm spindle like in the mk3 has a far greater angular velocity to cause oil swirl and maintain a true hydrodynamic bearing with no metal to metal contact between the sleeve and journal.
There is some info here and they went back to bronze.
https://www.theanalogdept.com/gzilla.htm
Now I don't take everything I read and what other people tell me as gospel until I test it myself. With the POM platter what I'm trying to achieve is to get the energy away from the stylus and deal with it in the plinth. The POM/Al platters are designed to do this and to also breakup the energy, kind of like treating a room so any energy that does return to the stylus is well down in level with no resonant peaks. Adding Pz to the platter complicates the build and it's a pig to machine. So I've stayed away from it.
The other issue with the mk2 is the very small 9/32 spindle adding heavy Pz high above the pivot point/sleeve top could potentially cause more precession in the platter which could also premature wear the bronze sleeve. Adding POM to a stock platter does not add a lot of mass. The smaller the spindle OD the slower the angular velocity of the outside surface, this slow velocity in the mk2 is not fast enough to create true hydrodynamic flow of the oil and causes a stock SP10mk2 spindle to continually make metal to metal contact. A 16mm spindle like in the mk3 has a far greater angular velocity to cause oil swirl and maintain a true hydrodynamic bearing with no metal to metal contact between the sleeve and journal.
Out of several dozen MKII motors the very small number that showed continual metal to metal contact also showed a complete lack of maintenance. The ones that were well maintained (sufficient oil) looked brand new aside from their well-worn thrust pads indicating thousands of hours of use.
Being adventurous with P'holz, and using it for purposes beyond the discussion already on here, will bring new discoveries that can be attributed to being a betterment. I have been introduced to alternative methods for its use, and have experienced the benefits of the changes that have occurred.
Some have used it as a Arm Wand in place of other Wood Materials, I am yet to find a negative report about adopting it for this role, and to some who have done this, I have also made them aware of 'Pica Wood', which is a Phenolic Resin Densified Wood with increased Laminations built up from thinner plies.
Some have used it as a Arm Wand in place of other Wood Materials, I am yet to find a negative report about adopting it for this role, and to some who have done this, I have also made them aware of 'Pica Wood', which is a Phenolic Resin Densified Wood with increased Laminations built up from thinner plies.
@donhughes111
I have made a lot of different platters from stainless steel, gunmetal and aluminium. The gunmetal was not used because I had issues with impurities in the castings. IME using Al as the base with POM is the option I have chosen. I can buy 6061 T6 Al in the required OD bar and it's structure is uniform. I used GM on @Bon and my current platters because I had the old GM platters and I could machine off the outer edge with the impurities, if I was making them now I would use 6061 Al.
The platter for the inverted bearing is 30mm POM on 40mm 6061 T6 aluminium.
My reason for these dimensions are -
Reflected energy from the POM / Al interface will be about 67% and the reflected wave will be inverted. POM has an attenuation of of approx 12dB/cm and there is 6cm return trip so the wave returning to the stylus will be attenuated 72dB. The Al base being 40mm thick provides a lot of rigidity to increase the resonant frequency of the platter assembly, so at audio frequencies the platter acts as a rigid structure. This is evident in the stethoscope test I mentioned earlier, there are no microphonics in the platter.
The OEM platter - airborne sound can be heard with a stethoscope placed on the platter mat. This is caused by the platter acting as a mechanical receiver/amplifier, just like the tin cans on a string we did as kids. Adding POM to the top of the OEM platter significantly reduces this effect and 20mm is the minimum to be able to use the decoupled spindle. Would 30mm be better? possibly but I've found 20mm works and for most people will fit with their existing tonearms/plinths with no modifications.
I have made a lot of different platters from stainless steel, gunmetal and aluminium. The gunmetal was not used because I had issues with impurities in the castings. IME using Al as the base with POM is the option I have chosen. I can buy 6061 T6 Al in the required OD bar and it's structure is uniform. I used GM on @Bon and my current platters because I had the old GM platters and I could machine off the outer edge with the impurities, if I was making them now I would use 6061 Al.
The platter for the inverted bearing is 30mm POM on 40mm 6061 T6 aluminium.
My reason for these dimensions are -
Reflected energy from the POM / Al interface will be about 67% and the reflected wave will be inverted. POM has an attenuation of of approx 12dB/cm and there is 6cm return trip so the wave returning to the stylus will be attenuated 72dB. The Al base being 40mm thick provides a lot of rigidity to increase the resonant frequency of the platter assembly, so at audio frequencies the platter acts as a rigid structure. This is evident in the stethoscope test I mentioned earlier, there are no microphonics in the platter.
The OEM platter - airborne sound can be heard with a stethoscope placed on the platter mat. This is caused by the platter acting as a mechanical receiver/amplifier, just like the tin cans on a string we did as kids. Adding POM to the top of the OEM platter significantly reduces this effect and 20mm is the minimum to be able to use the decoupled spindle. Would 30mm be better? possibly but I've found 20mm works and for most people will fit with their existing tonearms/plinths with no modifications.
@warrjon Your latest Design for the Beating / Platter, along with previous works undertaken on the Platters have been inspiring from the first time I have seen them, and have been instrumental in my furthering what is being witnessed, by opening up discussions with individuals with similar skillsets as you have.
The ideas for using the POM Tier on a Platter is now recognised and to be adopted. I have donated a Original Platter and a GM Platter that can be modified. These are both to be used solely and with a POM Tier, when the SP10 MkII has the P'holz Chassis Design in place, which is not too far of being completed.
As a further experiment and a not too expensive simplified method is one learned from Lenco Heaven.
This as a method, is clearly avoiding the complexities that are required to produce the works under discussion.
I am considering using 'Newplast Modellers Putty' the Properties of this material can be seen on the Qualia.Webs Link I have added in the earlier thread. I am aware this has been adopted by others as a filler material.
The intention is to attach it to the underside of the Original Platter to see how this can effect the Platter and SQ.
Option B, is the methodology from LH, which is to use a Stacked Platter, and have the upper Platters Underside Recess filled with a substance, in this trial the material will be 'Newplast', there is also the option to mechanically fasten the two platters together as you have with the POM.
This as a method, may be seen as a route for some, to produce a set up that offers a insight into a proportion of what can be achieved, when adopting all of your methods. I am not the only one who ponders on these ideas, looking at your work and find it an attractive idea. I undoubtedly will struggle with the skill set to achieve what is required, hence the intention to trial this alternative idea.
One other advantage should be that the Upper Platter of the Stacked Patter Assembly, should be achievable by not using a Original SP10 MkII Platter, so a larger range of Platters could be looked at for suitability, and not incur too much cost to create a Trial.
At present there are two requirements foreseen to achieve the Stacked Platter, one is a must have, which will be a extension in length of the Platter Spindle, the other, 'optional', will be to mechanically couple the Two Platters.
I am no stranger to the use of a Stacked Platter on a Lenco TT with a improved bearing, and have been shown where the benefits can be detected, with the use of a Stethoscope and through the improvements detected during a replay.
Any commentary on this idea, highlighting any foreseen issues with the SP10 MkII are welcomed, .
The ideas for using the POM Tier on a Platter is now recognised and to be adopted. I have donated a Original Platter and a GM Platter that can be modified. These are both to be used solely and with a POM Tier, when the SP10 MkII has the P'holz Chassis Design in place, which is not too far of being completed.
As a further experiment and a not too expensive simplified method is one learned from Lenco Heaven.
This as a method, is clearly avoiding the complexities that are required to produce the works under discussion.
I am considering using 'Newplast Modellers Putty' the Properties of this material can be seen on the Qualia.Webs Link I have added in the earlier thread. I am aware this has been adopted by others as a filler material.
The intention is to attach it to the underside of the Original Platter to see how this can effect the Platter and SQ.
Option B, is the methodology from LH, which is to use a Stacked Platter, and have the upper Platters Underside Recess filled with a substance, in this trial the material will be 'Newplast', there is also the option to mechanically fasten the two platters together as you have with the POM.
This as a method, may be seen as a route for some, to produce a set up that offers a insight into a proportion of what can be achieved, when adopting all of your methods. I am not the only one who ponders on these ideas, looking at your work and find it an attractive idea. I undoubtedly will struggle with the skill set to achieve what is required, hence the intention to trial this alternative idea.
One other advantage should be that the Upper Platter of the Stacked Patter Assembly, should be achievable by not using a Original SP10 MkII Platter, so a larger range of Platters could be looked at for suitability, and not incur too much cost to create a Trial.
At present there are two requirements foreseen to achieve the Stacked Platter, one is a must have, which will be a extension in length of the Platter Spindle, the other, 'optional', will be to mechanically couple the Two Platters.
I am no stranger to the use of a Stacked Platter on a Lenco TT with a improved bearing, and have been shown where the benefits can be detected, with the use of a Stethoscope and through the improvements detected during a replay.
Any commentary on this idea, highlighting any foreseen issues with the SP10 MkII are welcomed, .
The issues with the SP10mk2
1) Chassis picks up microphonics from airborne vibration. SP10 mk3 and R will also be afflicted with this
2) Platter also is microphonic.
3) Platter rotation produces a lot of precession, IMO caused by the bearing being very small.
I have already fixed 1 and 2, 3 is fixed with the inverted bearing motor but not tested under it's own power yet, that will happen when I have made the final spindle.
My next project is a new microprocessor controller for the mk2 motor using the latest in STM processors.
There is no reason you couldn't try adding a 2nd Lenco platter/spindle to the top of the mk2 platter, but you may increase platter precession. My platter I have kept the additional mass low to minimise this. If you do this I would suggest putting a test indicator on the OEM platter then on the stacked platter to see if there is additional precession.
With 20mm POM on the OEM platter there is just enough room to include a de-coupled LP spindle so the LP spindle is not touching the motor spindle. There is a fair amount of noise in the motor spindle, de-coupling it the noise then has to travel through the platter. In my inverted bearing platter I have opened the POM so the rotor does not touch it only touches the Al base.
1) Chassis picks up microphonics from airborne vibration. SP10 mk3 and R will also be afflicted with this
2) Platter also is microphonic.
3) Platter rotation produces a lot of precession, IMO caused by the bearing being very small.
I have already fixed 1 and 2, 3 is fixed with the inverted bearing motor but not tested under it's own power yet, that will happen when I have made the final spindle.
My next project is a new microprocessor controller for the mk2 motor using the latest in STM processors.
There is no reason you couldn't try adding a 2nd Lenco platter/spindle to the top of the mk2 platter, but you may increase platter precession. My platter I have kept the additional mass low to minimise this. If you do this I would suggest putting a test indicator on the OEM platter then on the stacked platter to see if there is additional precession.
With 20mm POM on the OEM platter there is just enough room to include a de-coupled LP spindle so the LP spindle is not touching the motor spindle. There is a fair amount of noise in the motor spindle, de-coupling it the noise then has to travel through the platter. In my inverted bearing platter I have opened the POM so the rotor does not touch it only touches the Al base.