I'm in my 70s and only hear up to 10kHz but I can still tell if frequencies above that are missing in the reproduction chain. I suppose it effects the overall waveform, harmonics etc even though I can't hear it but have no idea why.
@ron68
for a loudspeaker linear phase response between 200hz and 5khz is of relevance. Just here nearly all multiways have phase shifts. Mostly around 1 to 3khz where the ear ist most sensitive.
The listening example from my post 18 shows clearly what time alignment does to a box
for a loudspeaker linear phase response between 200hz and 5khz is of relevance. Just here nearly all multiways have phase shifts. Mostly around 1 to 3khz where the ear ist most sensitive.
The listening example from my post 18 shows clearly what time alignment does to a box
Hi!
OK, I'll check that as well as the impulse response sugested. I need to purchase a full range for comparison.
You mean most consumer loudspeakers have phase shifts between 200Hz and 5kHz.
Most consumer speakers are 2-way.
But In our 3-way DIY loudspeakers, 200Hz to 5kHz can be covered by a single speaker, the mid bass, mid range or even a 5" full range.
The mid bass I use (5") covers from 150Hz to 5kHz. See actual raw measurements below before the crossover.
And if isn't enough, I can select another speaker to cover with more margin (a bit lower than 150Hz and a bit higher than 5kHz)
In this case, there wouldn't be relevant electrical phase shift in this range.
I'm not trying to be picky here, but I just want to understand exactly what people like in full range single speaker that my 3-way cannot deliver.
I'm really not trying to say one is better than the other as it might look. I'm just showing data to be criticized and know what is wrong in my system that is correct in a single speaker.
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@ron68
I can confirm from listening tests that loudspeakers where the tweeter takes over at 5khz or above pretty much behaves like a fullrange.
The same with small fullranges which are crossed over at 300hz to a bass
I frequently use small fullranges (8cm drivers) and indirect beaming tweeters which don't reach below 5khz with success. It means the tweeter does not disturb the phase response perception but ads the dispersion sparkle or attack sometimes fullranges are missing.
I can confirm from listening tests that loudspeakers where the tweeter takes over at 5khz or above pretty much behaves like a fullrange.
The same with small fullranges which are crossed over at 300hz to a bass
I frequently use small fullranges (8cm drivers) and indirect beaming tweeters which don't reach below 5khz with success. It means the tweeter does not disturb the phase response perception but ads the dispersion sparkle or attack sometimes fullranges are missing.
I can tell I have a very good result with a stereo pair 8cm fullranges (closed box with stuffed/ damped reflex port) close to back wall and crossed over with just 340uF to a marble subwoofer active 12db.
Could merry a subwoofer to the small FRs without sonic faults with the help of a 2.1 amplifier offering 12db slope and loudness adjustment of the 20cm single woofer in corner placement.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-concrete-loudspeaker-box.406856/post-7547864
Behind the TV a hidden stereo pair of small audax like tweeters, with...
Could merry a subwoofer to the small FRs without sonic faults with the help of a 2.1 amplifier offering 12db slope and loudness adjustment of the 20cm single woofer in corner placement.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-concrete-loudspeaker-box.406856/post-7547864
Behind the TV a hidden stereo pair of small audax like tweeters, with...
@ron68
This one is also impressing
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...full-range-speaker-based-project.39025/page-6
Although I would never use overall in room dsp but only linearization in the near field only correcting the driver itself.
I have these fullrange beasts, too.
10 inch fullrange driver dsp use and measurements
This one is also impressing
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...full-range-speaker-based-project.39025/page-6
Although I would never use overall in room dsp but only linearization in the near field only correcting the driver itself.
I have these fullrange beasts, too.
The drivers are ready. Will see if I manage to install them and make measurements.
Aluminized small double cone with thin foil from the goldsmith.
Aluminized small double cone with thin foil from the goldsmith.
10 inch fullrange driver dsp use and measurements
I have not heard your speakers, but in general here are my thoughts, I think what the single full range offers a reduction of phase and delay distortion, and better time alignment. Also, power response tapers steadily as frequency increases which provides a stable image. In a three way the power response may taper to the top of the mid-range and then bloom as the tweeter takes over then it narrows again. This can blur or confuse the stereo image where the saxophone player seems to move position. Some people think power response is more important than frequency response. Sometimes the drivers in a three way aren't matched well and have different dynamic responses. This can be found in horn systems where the tweeter provides good crash but the woofer doesn't provide a synchronous boom, or soft passages are fine but loud ones are edgy from too much high frequency output. In general I think full-range speakers sound more focused and clear. Often the comments I get on my full-rangers are the mid-range is spooky good, or it sounds like she is singing right in front of me. On the other hand with complicated thick music single drivers can sound jumbled and muddy.
There is nothing "wrong" with your 3-way system. This is a DIY forum and I recommend you try various loudspeaker formats, full range, infinite baffle, sealed, vented, horns, etc. They all offer something different, maybe better, maybe not, that's up to you.
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I find that sounds below 50 Hz and above 10 kHz affect the midrange.
Even the elderly can feel the effect on the midrange.
@nandappe
Yes, too loud deep bass can marginalize the mids.
Highs and bass are often adjusted to taste, type of recording and room.
For a loudspeaker the mids should be linear and cannot be "adjusted" or deformed to taste. Between 200hz and 5khz it should be as linear as possible.
Yes, too loud deep bass can marginalize the mids.
Highs and bass are often adjusted to taste, type of recording and room.
For a loudspeaker the mids should be linear and cannot be "adjusted" or deformed to taste. Between 200hz and 5khz it should be as linear as possible.
You were almost there, but it seems to me that you gave up just before the finnish line. 😉
Maybe you did not hit the right combination: Driver/envlosure/amplifier
Miss any of the three and it will sound bad.
For example: Fostex 206. Must be in a horn, otherwise it's a miss. I had it was't happy. Then I bought Visaton B200. Wasn't happy until I connected it to Pass F2 amp, with a correction network 🙂
So, if you for example buy a Visaton B200, put it in a large (80-100l) sealed bo, them connect it to the transconcuctance amplifier...then you can judge....
Thank you for your reply.
I'm trying to understand what other people focus in a loudspeakers and what matters for them.
I have my own needs, which includes flat response from at least 29Hz. But this is myself, maybe or for sure, other people will accept not to have this flat response down to 30's in order to achieve a 200Hz and up better response.
From enginnering perspective, I'm trying to identify where my system, which is flat down to 30Hz and below, would not meet the other implementations such as single speaker above 200Hz. Where and why it fails.
If I get the technical issue (phase, IR, off axis, breakups etc), I can act and make changes - ideally, I would like to achive a speaker that could perform good in all ranges.
I've got some information and I'll make some experiments with full range speakers so as to compare against my 3-way.
Home work to do!
Regards!
One thing I have to add this morning is that usually loudspeakers with a single wide-band driver usually have narrow baffles. A three-way has a baffle determined by the size of the woofer. For example a three-way with a 12" woofer has a 14" or wider baffle. The size of the baffle can cause diffraction interference and a different sound. Some people like a wide baffle some like a narrow baffle. To me they both have advantages and drawbacks that should be addressed in the design. Some designers of three-way loudspeakers put the mid-range and tweeter in separate boxes or in no boxes at all.
Another thing that needs to be addressed is the "Wow! There is bass!" effect from people who have never heard a good single driver speaker. I have some 5" Tang Band drivers in a simple folded transmission line that produce bass down to 55hz. It's pretty astounding when you first hear it. These little speakers are great for jazz combos. Of course they don't play loud and they make a relative mess of large orchestral pieces, but at under $200 for the two of them they are an absolute bargain.
Another thing that needs to be addressed is the "Wow! There is bass!" effect from people who have never heard a good single driver speaker. I have some 5" Tang Band drivers in a simple folded transmission line that produce bass down to 55hz. It's pretty astounding when you first hear it. These little speakers are great for jazz combos. Of course they don't play loud and they make a relative mess of large orchestral pieces, but at under $200 for the two of them they are an absolute bargain.
Hi Freedom666.
It sounds good if 200Hz-5kHz is flat.
But it is impossible to make 200Hz-5kHz flat at my listening point, so I don't care.
@nandappe
Only the loudspeaker should be linear (at least in this region) not the room. Fullrange loudspeakers can be measured as a point source in the nearfield (20cm), multi ways are much more difficult to measure.
Classically for the room there is acoustic room treatment.
There is theory on that. Measuring in the far field means doing a lot of (unnecessary) correction work often worsening the sound. Filters to the loudspeaker should be only applied where necessary.
After setting dsp filters I listen to each filter with recorded instruments playing these instruments live simultaneously. Like this you can be sure you get a 100% identical tonality between recording and live event.
Every filter is checked if its bandwidth and amplitude is correct and makes the sound better.
Only the loudspeaker should be linear (at least in this region) not the room. Fullrange loudspeakers can be measured as a point source in the nearfield (20cm), multi ways are much more difficult to measure.
Classically for the room there is acoustic room treatment.
There is theory on that. Measuring in the far field means doing a lot of (unnecessary) correction work often worsening the sound. Filters to the loudspeaker should be only applied where necessary.
After setting dsp filters I listen to each filter with recorded instruments playing these instruments live simultaneously. Like this you can be sure you get a 100% identical tonality between recording and live event.
Every filter is checked if its bandwidth and amplitude is correct and makes the sound better.
Hi Freedom666.
My audio friend used B&W 802 D3 with TRINNOV AUDIO ST2-HIFI to flatten it, but now he is adjusting it to his liking.
He said, "Just because it's flat doesn't mean it sounds good."
I guess it all comes down to personal preference.
Attachments
Wow, that is quite a difference! I guess if you flatten the frequency response you release the demons of phase and distortion. Compression and power response can be affected too. Obviously flat frequency response is only one of the goals of a loudspeaker designer. I've known for a while that adding gobs of power to the bass will only create equal amounts of distortion. The DSP fans don't seem to understand.
Every time you pull up (or down) an amplitude with a filter, you lead and lag the phase about that filter's frequency. So, let's say you work the filters to get that flat response above - what's the phase doing as a result? Unsure if it's possible to have one without giving up the other - classical trade-off situation.
One time I bought a fancy Yamaha pre-amp, with a broken tone control. "Easy fix" I thought. Turns out the resistor film was deposited on a glass substrate, which was cracked. On further analysis they really went out of their way to ensure the signal passed through directly on the "flat" detent. I assume they wanted phase shift only when boost or cut was dialed in. The cheaper way is to use a switch, take the whole circuit out of the signal path.
The ubiquitous "graphic eq" - in everyone's RCA signal path, right? I wonder what that does to phase with all the controls set flat, assuming an ordinary op-amp based design and not the particular Yamaha circuit on every slider.
One time I bought a fancy Yamaha pre-amp, with a broken tone control. "Easy fix" I thought. Turns out the resistor film was deposited on a glass substrate, which was cracked. On further analysis they really went out of their way to ensure the signal passed through directly on the "flat" detent. I assume they wanted phase shift only when boost or cut was dialed in. The cheaper way is to use a switch, take the whole circuit out of the signal path.
The ubiquitous "graphic eq" - in everyone's RCA signal path, right? I wonder what that does to phase with all the controls set flat, assuming an ordinary op-amp based design and not the particular Yamaha circuit on every slider.
That:s why I prefer to "flatten" the fullrange speaker acoustically, as much as possible. For example, I prefer to get more bass via better enclosure and not EQ.
Then some peaks higher up can sometimes be remedied by coating the driver, phase plugs etc. Lastly, a bit of toe-in can help.
Also, a transconductance amp can improve the response of a "normally peaky" fullrange.
If all of that doesn't suffice, the loudspeaker is not good enough. As a last resort, I could apply a bit of a passive notch (but I'd rather avoid it).
Maybe Trinnov has some sophisticated approach like multiple farfield measurements averaged. However they have target curves and its not easy to find out what sounds good in your room depending on room and loudspeaker (and its dispersion properties).
In theory only the loudspeaker should be perfect and the room treated seperately with classical room tuning.
Bass and highs can be adjusted to taste due to room damping properties.
But the important 200hz to 5khz region should really be linear.
And here I trust most near field measurements of ideally point source fullrange drivers.
I liked very much the freedom of adjustment of each filter set by hand and listening to it.
Overall all in one systems are difficult to steer.
Legendary was here Denons Audyssey automatic measurement where you could not put "freely" the microphone on all listening positions in a home cinema living room notoriously getting like this exaggerated highs.
Later they described after many complains of frustrated users how to use the mic exactly and after that it worked out.
But this information was leaked years after the introduction(!)
In theory only the loudspeaker should be perfect and the room treated seperately with classical room tuning.
Bass and highs can be adjusted to taste due to room damping properties.
But the important 200hz to 5khz region should really be linear.
And here I trust most near field measurements of ideally point source fullrange drivers.
I liked very much the freedom of adjustment of each filter set by hand and listening to it.
Overall all in one systems are difficult to steer.
Legendary was here Denons Audyssey automatic measurement where you could not put "freely" the microphone on all listening positions in a home cinema living room notoriously getting like this exaggerated highs.
Later they described after many complains of frustrated users how to use the mic exactly and after that it worked out.
But this information was leaked years after the introduction(!)