From what I have read on the Net about the Audio Nirvana I'd guess it looks like the Eminence is far better. I didn't find any shouty nature in the CX10 with ASD 1001. I'm sure it can be made even better but it also doesn't sound like any typical dual cone concentric driver that I have heard.
The Eminence is very good but could be honed further I think. Midrange is usually the problem area but the Eminence surely doesn't shout at all.
I see that we have a reasonable number following the progress of this thread but they don't post at all ! It's left to just a few ! Wish we had more feedback.
I'll be measuring my set up this weekend. Probably even try to run it with a fully equalised setup. I'm impatient , but things don't allow me to progress faster ! 🙁
The Eminence is very good but could be honed further I think. Midrange is usually the problem area but the Eminence surely doesn't shout at all.
I see that we have a reasonable number following the progress of this thread but they don't post at all ! It's left to just a few ! Wish we had more feedback.
I'll be measuring my set up this weekend. Probably even try to run it with a fully equalised setup. I'm impatient , but things don't allow me to progress faster ! 🙁
Lack of shout is good news.
I'm following avidly and want to build, but cant decide on 10" or 12".
Whatever, they will be passive / active cross-over, all valve / sand driven with stereo subs by the end of summer (that's If I don't get another dose of 'Tannoy-itus' between now and then).
Till 'shortly' I aint got no questions or whatevers to add.
If you read the posts again you will find that some people who have heard all three drivers 8",10" and 12 inch preferred the 10 inch. But basically one needs to hear them all to pick their personal preference. There are also those who like the 12 inch !
I'll probably get one 12 inch unit to determine what it sounds like.Been thinking about this a long time. Basically I a large a driver without compromising on SQ to get more low end on an OB before crossing over to a sub. This could start affecting midrange and 'beaming' around the crossover frequency.
Are there any suitable compression drivers that can be crossed over lower than the ASD1001. Maybe the Eminence PSD 2002S or PSD 2013S ?
I heard a Tannoy Monitor Gold 15 incher recently. Very nice but apart from the low end ( was in an original corner cabinet ) it wasn't far superior to the Eminence to justify the price. But there are so many variables out of our control ( room was also not too good !) that it's never really very conclusive.
I'll follow up on the 12 inch and PSD's and see where that goes. But until my 10 incher is working with active crossover I can't make a real decision. The 12 incher would end up costing much more and might have as yet unknown issues ! 😉
Edit:
Interesting: I came across this just now from : http://www.lautsprechershop.de/index_hifi_en.htm?http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/ct235_en.htm
( about the CX10 and APT50 in a tall bass reflex box )
Quote :
"The first thing we noticed in our listening room was the exceptional sound clarity of this coax speaker. Despite the somewhat wavy frequency response, nothing was missing. Bass was particularly dynamic, fast and tight, as was to be expected from a good paper diaphragm driver. Bass and midrange are an excellent foundation for all sorts of nuances; especially vocals are magnificent, without any colouration. The high frequencies can be adjusted by angling the speakers. Pointed towards the listener the high frequencies might be somewhat emphasised, slight off-axis they are spot-on, but that's obviously a matter of taste. The dynamics of this reasonably priced driver are impressive. The speaker is ideally suited for both, low volumes as well as at volumes where the neighbour might be calling the police. The CT 235 always remains in absolute control. Time and again it's exciting, but not surprising for the connoisseur, to experience the exceptional three-dimensionality of a good coax speaker. Stage width and depth of the Eminence floorstander are extraordinary. Especially, realistic recording sessions like in auditoriums are reproduced accurately, picturing the musicians and the concert hall in your mind's eye. " ...
It is also crossed over rather low at 2.1 Khz !
I'll probably get one 12 inch unit to determine what it sounds like.Been thinking about this a long time. Basically I a large a driver without compromising on SQ to get more low end on an OB before crossing over to a sub. This could start affecting midrange and 'beaming' around the crossover frequency.
Are there any suitable compression drivers that can be crossed over lower than the ASD1001. Maybe the Eminence PSD 2002S or PSD 2013S ?
I heard a Tannoy Monitor Gold 15 incher recently. Very nice but apart from the low end ( was in an original corner cabinet ) it wasn't far superior to the Eminence to justify the price. But there are so many variables out of our control ( room was also not too good !) that it's never really very conclusive.
I'll follow up on the 12 inch and PSD's and see where that goes. But until my 10 incher is working with active crossover I can't make a real decision. The 12 incher would end up costing much more and might have as yet unknown issues ! 😉
Edit:
Interesting: I came across this just now from : http://www.lautsprechershop.de/index_hifi_en.htm?http://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/ct235_en.htm
( about the CX10 and APT50 in a tall bass reflex box )
Quote :
"The first thing we noticed in our listening room was the exceptional sound clarity of this coax speaker. Despite the somewhat wavy frequency response, nothing was missing. Bass was particularly dynamic, fast and tight, as was to be expected from a good paper diaphragm driver. Bass and midrange are an excellent foundation for all sorts of nuances; especially vocals are magnificent, without any colouration. The high frequencies can be adjusted by angling the speakers. Pointed towards the listener the high frequencies might be somewhat emphasised, slight off-axis they are spot-on, but that's obviously a matter of taste. The dynamics of this reasonably priced driver are impressive. The speaker is ideally suited for both, low volumes as well as at volumes where the neighbour might be calling the police. The CT 235 always remains in absolute control. Time and again it's exciting, but not surprising for the connoisseur, to experience the exceptional three-dimensionality of a good coax speaker. Stage width and depth of the Eminence floorstander are extraordinary. Especially, realistic recording sessions like in auditoriums are reproduced accurately, picturing the musicians and the concert hall in your mind's eye. " ...
It is also crossed over rather low at 2.1 Khz !
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I believe one of the bigger audio manufacturers used the 12" in a very expensive ($20000+) speaker unit.
I've heard it in the Emerald Physics CS3 and CS2.3, and it was really special. The CS3 was my personal favorite and no, it did not need a subwoofer. Clayton did a great job on the EQ. The HF driver was probably not an Eminence unit at all. Don't remember now, but probably a Selenium.
The 15" is not so great - but I heard that only in a complete speaker, with a 15" bass unit also in OB. I don't know if it was the room or the crossover or the driver, but something wasn't right. This was not an Emerald Physics speaker, but something else.
Never heard any of the smaller units. I just picked up a pair of APT50 and the CX-12, will be building it out over the next few months. Cost 14.3K shipped to Calcutta, so not cheap but not too expensive if you look at the dollar equivalent at today's rates.
I've heard it in the Emerald Physics CS3 and CS2.3, and it was really special. The CS3 was my personal favorite and no, it did not need a subwoofer. Clayton did a great job on the EQ. The HF driver was probably not an Eminence unit at all. Don't remember now, but probably a Selenium.
The 15" is not so great - but I heard that only in a complete speaker, with a 15" bass unit also in OB. I don't know if it was the room or the crossover or the driver, but something wasn't right. This was not an Emerald Physics speaker, but something else.
Never heard any of the smaller units. I just picked up a pair of APT50 and the CX-12, will be building it out over the next few months. Cost 14.3K shipped to Calcutta, so not cheap but not too expensive if you look at the dollar equivalent at today's rates.
Will wait for your results. Based on my impression on other Eminence drivers , I expect a lot ! 🙂 The only issue with the larger cone might be beaming around the midrange if not crossed over properly. But I see many people dealing with such issues on other speaker systems by just toeing in the speakers ! Looks like lots of them have this problem ! My current OB can take a 12 inch driver without change in dimensions !
Actually my experience of these speakers has been limited to other HF drivers, which can cross a lot lower (and therefore the dispersion is a lot smoother, no beaming at all). I'll be using a crossover DSP on my soundcard to split signals, but have also gathered a small collection of passive parts for a low-cost passive EQ.
I like saurama's crossover and results, so it's one of the candidates. Looking for others as well, with the right amount of BSC built-in. I'm not locked into the APT50, also have some other options to try out. One of them is a botched PE order, where they sent the replacement diaphragms for the Galaxy audio tweeter buyout instead of an actual tweeter, and I'm putting together a small custom mount to try them out here.
Will post results when I have them!
I like saurama's crossover and results, so it's one of the candidates. Looking for others as well, with the right amount of BSC built-in. I'm not locked into the APT50, also have some other options to try out. One of them is a botched PE order, where they sent the replacement diaphragms for the Galaxy audio tweeter buyout instead of an actual tweeter, and I'm putting together a small custom mount to try them out here.
Will post results when I have them!
CX-12 finally !
Just bought one PSD2013S and a CX-12 . Couldn't wait to try it out. It makes the CX-10 with ASD1001 look rather small. The stamped metal frame is neatly made but does look 'lighter' than a cast frame. However with a cast frame it would cost many times more .
I used the same passive crossover that is on the CX-10/ASD1001 . Not really a fair comparison. The PSD2013 can crossover much lower.
Anyway I find again that the system does not 'shout'. It does sound better as there is more LF available ( on OB !). I'll make a new baffle for this ASAP. I'm expecting it to be really good in this application !
I might add that my OB test a few years ago had a problem with cuppy midrange ! It was a 3 way, APT50, Eminence Alpha 8A and delta 15A. I later realised it was due to the baffle and possibly no response compensation I guess.
Changing the speaker position didn't help at all.
So far I do not hear that problem in the new OB's. Now it's a bit forward sounding and that will probably be due to the lack of LF. Will see how it sounds after EQ. I have lots of other unrelated things to get done in the meantime and I will try to keep the full weekend for this project.
Will need to pick up the second pair if these are really that good !
Just bought one PSD2013S and a CX-12 . Couldn't wait to try it out. It makes the CX-10 with ASD1001 look rather small. The stamped metal frame is neatly made but does look 'lighter' than a cast frame. However with a cast frame it would cost many times more .
I used the same passive crossover that is on the CX-10/ASD1001 . Not really a fair comparison. The PSD2013 can crossover much lower.
Anyway I find again that the system does not 'shout'. It does sound better as there is more LF available ( on OB !). I'll make a new baffle for this ASAP. I'm expecting it to be really good in this application !
I might add that my OB test a few years ago had a problem with cuppy midrange ! It was a 3 way, APT50, Eminence Alpha 8A and delta 15A. I later realised it was due to the baffle and possibly no response compensation I guess.
Changing the speaker position didn't help at all.
So far I do not hear that problem in the new OB's. Now it's a bit forward sounding and that will probably be due to the lack of LF. Will see how it sounds after EQ. I have lots of other unrelated things to get done in the meantime and I will try to keep the full weekend for this project.
Will need to pick up the second pair if these are really that good !
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CX-12 horn
Has anyone got a picture of the horn on the CX-12 ? Would mean that the dust cap has to be removed. I don't want to meddle with my unit at the moment. I remember seeing a picture of the CX horn on the web. Don't remember which driver it was. The 8 or 10 or 12 inch. Does anyone have a link to that picture ? If it isn't the CX12 hope someone could point us to picture of that one.
Thanks.
Has anyone got a picture of the horn on the CX-12 ? Would mean that the dust cap has to be removed. I don't want to meddle with my unit at the moment. I remember seeing a picture of the CX horn on the web. Don't remember which driver it was. The 8 or 10 or 12 inch. Does anyone have a link to that picture ? If it isn't the CX12 hope someone could point us to picture of that one.
Thanks.
Your observations match my experience. Regarding toe - in to compensate for beaming at upper end of woofer, this also applies to top end of tweeter with the ASD1K. I optimized and listen at 15 deg off axis (no toe - in) and just let the tweeter peak on axis. When you think about it, the on axis response contributes very little to power response.
All my recent experience is with the Beta 8. It is not perfect, but I am completely pleased with it. Next up for me is revisiting my 8" poly cone acoustinators. These go down as low as the beta 10 cx in a reflex box, with somewhat lower sensitivity but in a smaller box (the beta 8 needs a subwoofer). They also are a lot smoother than the beta 8, as is the beta 10cx. Sadly these are discontinued.
Theres a small one of the 10" in the link in post #39 and only a few more searching google.
Seems opinion is divided not only on 10 v 12, but on keeping or removing the dust-cap.
Seems opinion is divided not only on 10 v 12, but on keeping or removing the dust-cap.
Thanks for that information.
I've tried the two systems CX-10 + ASD1001 and CX-12 + PSD1013S with the same crossover at 2.5 Khz ( stock Eminence unit) with the drivers in my hand...no baffle. In this simplistic exercise the CX-12 is the winner ! Nothing bad about either one of them but the increased LF content on the CX12 seems to bias the opinion in its favour !
While tilting the CX-12 from side to side I don't find a sharp cut of where the sound degrades significantly. So I'm guessing it has a wide sweet spot which I didn't expect.
Both seem to be pretty good drivers ! I'm glad, as they are affordable. I wouldn't want to plonk down almost $400/- for a single driver + more for a compression driver !
I'm definitely going to pick up a second pair ( for stereo ) as soon as possible.
I've tried the two systems CX-10 + ASD1001 and CX-12 + PSD1013S with the same crossover at 2.5 Khz ( stock Eminence unit) with the drivers in my hand...no baffle. In this simplistic exercise the CX-12 is the winner ! Nothing bad about either one of them but the increased LF content on the CX12 seems to bias the opinion in its favour !
While tilting the CX-12 from side to side I don't find a sharp cut of where the sound degrades significantly. So I'm guessing it has a wide sweet spot which I didn't expect.
Both seem to be pretty good drivers ! I'm glad, as they are affordable. I wouldn't want to plonk down almost $400/- for a single driver + more for a compression driver !
I'm definitely going to pick up a second pair ( for stereo ) as soon as possible.
Hey Ashok, Which PSD2013s are you using? 8ohm or 16ohm. We have custom crossovers designed for both. NWCgrad's 10? coaxial collaborative design - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Mine is for the 16ohm version with the Beta 10cx. I tried the 12cx and the ten was better when crossing at 80hz in a 1.8-2cuft (51-56.6L) box tuned to 50hz. The 12cx needs to be in a much larger box as well.
Edit: The XO for the 16ohm version was designed to be used as L/C/R mains (2cuft)(56.6L) 50hz tune, and the 8ohm crossover was designed to be used as surrounds. (1cuft)(28.3L) 50hz tune.
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Hi Revboden and GM ,
I am using the CX driver in an open baffle ! So it will need serious EQ and I hope the LF roll off after EQ will be not too high. So the CX-12 certainly will do better here. I was concerned about the mid range performance of the CX driver+compression driver combo. Now that seems to be OK. It's still possible that the CX10 'might' be a shade better ( in the mid range) than the CX12 after all the EQ etc. Only way to find out is to complete them. I realised that chopping up the second baffle for the CX12 is a bad idea. That way I wouldn't be able to compare them in stereo mode. So the CX12 will need a new baffle. The current baffle is very flimsy but it's only for a simple test. The final baffle might be almost 3 inches thick. Sand filled dual layer panel.
The PSD 2013S that I have is an 8 ohm unit. The 16 ohm unit is not available locally. Hope to do some more tests later today if time permits it.
I am using the CX driver in an open baffle ! So it will need serious EQ and I hope the LF roll off after EQ will be not too high. So the CX-12 certainly will do better here. I was concerned about the mid range performance of the CX driver+compression driver combo. Now that seems to be OK. It's still possible that the CX10 'might' be a shade better ( in the mid range) than the CX12 after all the EQ etc. Only way to find out is to complete them. I realised that chopping up the second baffle for the CX12 is a bad idea. That way I wouldn't be able to compare them in stereo mode. So the CX12 will need a new baffle. The current baffle is very flimsy but it's only for a simple test. The final baffle might be almost 3 inches thick. Sand filled dual layer panel.
The PSD 2013S that I have is an 8 ohm unit. The 16 ohm unit is not available locally. Hope to do some more tests later today if time permits it.
Beta 12cx should work in the Karlsonator12
build pictures of one set
https://www.facebook.com/triticumau...8.1073741850.601735219872967/697669953612826/
build pictures of one set
https://www.facebook.com/triticumau...8.1073741850.601735219872967/697669953612826/
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I've decided to go with the 12" first as I already have 10" Tannoys - now to decide on the HF driver...
After reading this, I crunched the numbers on my beta EmKen cabinets and they are 138.5 L / 4.888 ft.
Putting the numbers into winisd gives:
2 round circular vents 194mm long with a ment mach of 0.05 for an F3 of 53Hz / F10 of 30Hz
Does this sound about right?
After reading this, I crunched the numbers on my beta EmKen cabinets and they are 138.5 L / 4.888 ft.
Putting the numbers into winisd gives:
2 round circular vents 194mm long with a ment mach of 0.05 for an F3 of 53Hz / F10 of 30Hz
Does this sound about right?
PSD2013S-8 impedance
Has anyone checked the impedance plot of the PSD2013S compression driver on a CX-12 or on a H290S horn ?
The plot after the main resonance has a second large resonance with a very jagged curve after that.The ASD1001 and APT50 however have quite smooth impedance plots on the horn or the CX-12.
I had measured it but find that I did not save it. I'll post it tomorrow.It's too late now.
Looks like the impedance bumps could cause serious response problems around the crossover frequency. Might be difficult to tame. I don't understand why it is so jagged and why it has two large resonance peaks next to each other. Certainly not due to the CX-12 as it is on the H290S horn also. The other drivers don't have this problem.
Has anyone checked the impedance plot of the PSD2013S compression driver on a CX-12 or on a H290S horn ?
The plot after the main resonance has a second large resonance with a very jagged curve after that.The ASD1001 and APT50 however have quite smooth impedance plots on the horn or the CX-12.
I had measured it but find that I did not save it. I'll post it tomorrow.It's too late now.
Looks like the impedance bumps could cause serious response problems around the crossover frequency. Might be difficult to tame. I don't understand why it is so jagged and why it has two large resonance peaks next to each other. Certainly not due to the CX-12 as it is on the H290S horn also. The other drivers don't have this problem.
A compression driver is a (complex) band pass device. Phase plug itself is complex enough, and there're the diaphragm and rear chamber etc. A crowded series. Hard to avoid resonances here and there.
Well, you don't list the diameter, but using WinISD 0.7, Xmax limits it to ~20 W, so a single ~4"/101.6 mm dia. pipe x ~2.4"/61 mm long is plenty large enough for a < 5% mach with a ~36 Hz Fb/44 Hz F3/28 Hz F10 alignment.
GM
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