Not sure I'd want to commit to such an endeavor at this time in an official capacity... But I'd happily build a few Norwoods here and there if peeps send me parts and boards and pay for shipping etc. Donations accepted but not required. PM me. It's just too much fun to build anything—and Norwood is worth the effort... I do have a hotair system—so can make pretty quick work of them. Totally doable by hand as well though.
PaulInWA: Thanks for the info. Ordered the Tucson components today and am looking forward to a 3-fold comparison: the ACA versus the MountainView, then the Tucson opamp design against the other two. It is fashionable to disparage opamps among a certain purist audiophile crowd these days but I have a Slee phono preamp that uses them in a creative way and this pre sounds vinyl great.
Having had such good luck with the ACA, am inclined these days to think that simpler can be better and that the ears might be better judges than our scopes and MV meters.
Having had such good luck with the ACA, am inclined these days to think that simpler can be better and that the ears might be better judges than our scopes and MV meters.
A significant number of the M2x owners who've built and listened to all eight daughter cards, say they get the best sound from Cedarburg, or IPS7, or Norwood. And they have proclaimed it, here on this thread, pretty forcefully.
As you may know, all three of those IPS cards are opamp designs. Cedarburg has a BJT input opamp, Norwood has a JFET input opamp, and IPS7 lets you plug in whatever opamp you want: BJT, JFET, MOSFET. I happen to know that moderator 6L6 runs his favorite (IPS7) with a JFET input opamp, the Burr Brown OPA134. But that's just his opinion. Have your own fun, do your own listening, and decide for yourself!
As you may know, all three of those IPS cards are opamp designs. Cedarburg has a BJT input opamp, Norwood has a JFET input opamp, and IPS7 lets you plug in whatever opamp you want: BJT, JFET, MOSFET. I happen to know that moderator 6L6 runs his favorite (IPS7) with a JFET input opamp, the Burr Brown OPA134. But that's just his opinion. Have your own fun, do your own listening, and decide for yourself!
In the midst of this thread, you will find a post by Mark Johnson describing the IPS6 and IPS7, and another describing the Cedarburg. These posts describe the circuits, and allow downloads of the circuit diagrams, and a Zip file which you can use to have some of the cards made at a PCB fabrication website.
Do a search of this thread for those posts, I don’t recall the post numbers any more.
Do a search of this thread for those posts, I don’t recall the post numbers any more.
Thanks, Bones13. Did a search for the Norwood components and they were mostly backordered on DigiKey and Mouser. Will stick with the two already ordered for now and branch out later this year when supplies are available.
Yes, for anyone interested in the cards see posts 3408 (IPS6) and 4343 (Cedarburg). Mark's sage comments about build difficulty in 4343 are worthwhile and will make this a future project for me.
Page 1 of this thread includes the first ten posts (if that's your setting in the User Control Panel) or else the first fifty posts (if you're a Big Dog).
The answer to this question is found on Page One. When someone asks a question whose answer is found on Page One, I like to wait a while and let them have the pure joy of discovery. When you teach yourself to play the harmonica, or to change a tire, or to caramelize onions in a skillet: you remember it forever. Similarly, when you teach yourself to read Page One, and find out how many inquiries that pre-solves: you remember it forever.
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The answer to this question is found on Page One. When someone asks a question whose answer is found on Page One, I like to wait a while and let them have the pure joy of discovery. When you teach yourself to play the harmonica, or to change a tire, or to caramelize onions in a skillet: you remember it forever. Similarly, when you teach yourself to read Page One, and find out how many inquiries that pre-solves: you remember it forever.
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Attachments
Mark's post yesterday reminded me that I have been meaning to post my impressions of the very daughterboards I have tried so I pulled my notes together and here they are. Obviously, everybody's preferences and systems are different and there is no one best sound. Speakers were the Tekton Moabs.
M2x Daughter Card Listening Impressions
These comments are taken from my listening notes doing A/B comparisons of the M2x with different daughter cards to the Aleph J and are in the order the cards with listened to. Initially, I hadn’t built the Waynes BA2018 so it isn’t until the IPS7 that the BA2018 was a factor. Before then the amps were fed directly from either the SMSL SU-9 or Denefrips Ares II DACs. The Waynes BA2018 is amazing but as you read the notes you will see that it added some shoutyness/glare that I am quite sensitive to and my final choice of the Tucson/Burson V6 Classic combination was because it had the best synergy with the BA2018. In general, I liked the M2x as much or better than the Aleph J and I like the Aleph J more than the F4, F5, or F6.
Tucson/OPA1611 - Big, dramatic, dynamic, dimensional sound. Massive soundstage. Very detailed and impactful highs and lows. Almost artificial or cartoonish but still very nuanced. It is fairly addicting in its Oh Wow quality, but it borders on shouty or fatiguing.
Cedarburg - Very natural with a bit more pop compared to the Aleph J but quite similar in character. Highs are not as forward or as well defined as the Aleph J. Some tracks are better on Cedarburg and some are better on Aleph J.
Mountain View – Quite lean compared to the Aleph J. Mountain view is less resonant and rich sounding but not obviously more detailed or purer in sound. Bottom line nothing special or notable and my least favorite input stage.
Ishikawa –Fairly similar to the Aleph J with a bit sweeter midrange and a more forward top end and a tad more definition. Bass is pronounced and dramatic. I thought it was a touch better than Aleph J and it had a better top end than Cedarburg. Aleph J was warmer, smoother but with worse highs and transients.
Tucson/LT1122 - Quite similar to Aleph J but with everything a bit better and no tradeoffs that I heard.
IPS7/ IPA1612 - This combination is a winner. It has all the positives of the Tucson/OPA1611 but without any of the shoutyness or glare that I noticed with the Tucson/OPA1611. The IPS7 has a holographic/massive soundstage, great detail, tremendous drama, lots of dynamics and definition. It doesn’t seem unnatural, just bigger and better. It also had incredible details and soundstage and separation. But when I tried the IPS7/IPA1612 with the Wayne’s BA2018 line stage I started noticing a fair amount of glare/blare/shoutyness that bothered me.
IPS7/LME49720 - Detailed and precise with strong high end and robust bass. Less shoutyness/glare with BA2018 than the IPS7/IPA1612. Aleph J was more liquid sounding and warmer which made it feel better with vocals while IPS7/LME49720 better with instrumentals. Again, this is with the BA2018 and I didn’t listen without the BA2018.
No Daughterboard – Removed daughterboard completely and jumpered I/O 2 and I/O 4. Very clear, transparent, precises sounding with lots of separation. Very different from Aleph J, the sound without a daughterboard was much leaner, less resonant and rich. Bass is tighter but less full and satisfying. Excellent transparency and tone. Despite those positives the M2x with no daughterboard just wasn’t as pleasant to listen to.
Norwood – Norwood has less bass rumble and density than the Aleph J but it has more details, separation and purity. It feels very detailed without being fatiguing or artificial. I missed some of the bass slam of the Aleph J but Norwood brings more to the party in other respects. Norwood with BA2018 was a good combination with all the positives of both and only a touch of shoutyness/glare.
Tucson/Burson V6 Classic – This is a very good combination with the Wayne’s BA2018 and the one I left in the M2x. It provides all the separation, big sound, dynamics, and soundstage that the other opamps offered but with less of the glare/shoutyness that was often a problem with the Wayne’s BA2018. To my ears the Tucson/Burson/BA2018 was clearly better than the Aleph J. It is worth noting that the Aleph J didn’t sound good with the BA2018 and a RCA to XLR adapter.
The Burson V6 single opamp doesn’t fit into the IPS7 but it would be really interesting to try the Burson V6 dual opamp with the IPS7. My guess is that would be even better.
M2x Daughter Card Listening Impressions
These comments are taken from my listening notes doing A/B comparisons of the M2x with different daughter cards to the Aleph J and are in the order the cards with listened to. Initially, I hadn’t built the Waynes BA2018 so it isn’t until the IPS7 that the BA2018 was a factor. Before then the amps were fed directly from either the SMSL SU-9 or Denefrips Ares II DACs. The Waynes BA2018 is amazing but as you read the notes you will see that it added some shoutyness/glare that I am quite sensitive to and my final choice of the Tucson/Burson V6 Classic combination was because it had the best synergy with the BA2018. In general, I liked the M2x as much or better than the Aleph J and I like the Aleph J more than the F4, F5, or F6.
Tucson/OPA1611 - Big, dramatic, dynamic, dimensional sound. Massive soundstage. Very detailed and impactful highs and lows. Almost artificial or cartoonish but still very nuanced. It is fairly addicting in its Oh Wow quality, but it borders on shouty or fatiguing.
Cedarburg - Very natural with a bit more pop compared to the Aleph J but quite similar in character. Highs are not as forward or as well defined as the Aleph J. Some tracks are better on Cedarburg and some are better on Aleph J.
Mountain View – Quite lean compared to the Aleph J. Mountain view is less resonant and rich sounding but not obviously more detailed or purer in sound. Bottom line nothing special or notable and my least favorite input stage.
Ishikawa –Fairly similar to the Aleph J with a bit sweeter midrange and a more forward top end and a tad more definition. Bass is pronounced and dramatic. I thought it was a touch better than Aleph J and it had a better top end than Cedarburg. Aleph J was warmer, smoother but with worse highs and transients.
Tucson/LT1122 - Quite similar to Aleph J but with everything a bit better and no tradeoffs that I heard.
IPS7/ IPA1612 - This combination is a winner. It has all the positives of the Tucson/OPA1611 but without any of the shoutyness or glare that I noticed with the Tucson/OPA1611. The IPS7 has a holographic/massive soundstage, great detail, tremendous drama, lots of dynamics and definition. It doesn’t seem unnatural, just bigger and better. It also had incredible details and soundstage and separation. But when I tried the IPS7/IPA1612 with the Wayne’s BA2018 line stage I started noticing a fair amount of glare/blare/shoutyness that bothered me.
IPS7/LME49720 - Detailed and precise with strong high end and robust bass. Less shoutyness/glare with BA2018 than the IPS7/IPA1612. Aleph J was more liquid sounding and warmer which made it feel better with vocals while IPS7/LME49720 better with instrumentals. Again, this is with the BA2018 and I didn’t listen without the BA2018.
No Daughterboard – Removed daughterboard completely and jumpered I/O 2 and I/O 4. Very clear, transparent, precises sounding with lots of separation. Very different from Aleph J, the sound without a daughterboard was much leaner, less resonant and rich. Bass is tighter but less full and satisfying. Excellent transparency and tone. Despite those positives the M2x with no daughterboard just wasn’t as pleasant to listen to.
Norwood – Norwood has less bass rumble and density than the Aleph J but it has more details, separation and purity. It feels very detailed without being fatiguing or artificial. I missed some of the bass slam of the Aleph J but Norwood brings more to the party in other respects. Norwood with BA2018 was a good combination with all the positives of both and only a touch of shoutyness/glare.
Tucson/Burson V6 Classic – This is a very good combination with the Wayne’s BA2018 and the one I left in the M2x. It provides all the separation, big sound, dynamics, and soundstage that the other opamps offered but with less of the glare/shoutyness that was often a problem with the Wayne’s BA2018. To my ears the Tucson/Burson/BA2018 was clearly better than the Aleph J. It is worth noting that the Aleph J didn’t sound good with the BA2018 and a RCA to XLR adapter.
The Burson V6 single opamp doesn’t fit into the IPS7 but it would be really interesting to try the Burson V6 dual opamp with the IPS7. My guess is that would be even better.
Definitely a very helpful summary. I noticed that the solution included an outboard power supply.
I was having some noise with my M2x build when I had the power supply inside the chassis. This was the same chassis and power supply that I used for my F6 build which also had some noise problems. None of the normal stuff fixed the noise problem. Since I had the parts and transformer on hand to build another power supply I decided to just build it externally and see if that helped and it did. I assume I was getting interference between the transformers but I don't know that for a fact. At some point I'll have to make it all pretty and put the external power supply in its own chassis but it works great right now.
Maybe someday you'll try Austin and IPS6 too. Several people built all the cards and liked Austin better than all others. And, as expected, several other builders listened to each input stage board and chose IPS6 as their personal king of the hill.
As its writeup alludes, IPS6 is by design an electronic tweaker's paradise. It rewards you for meticulous device matching and super careful bias optimization (20 turn trimpot). And it's the only M2x daughter card with a transconductance amplifier circuit topology --- its open loop output impedance is many thousands of ohms (!). Whereas Norwood's open loop output impedance is, by contrast, less than ten ohms.
Also let's wish IPS6 and IPS7 a happy birthday. They were 'born' (Gerbers and schematics posted here) on 21 August 2020.
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As its writeup alludes, IPS6 is by design an electronic tweaker's paradise. It rewards you for meticulous device matching and super careful bias optimization (20 turn trimpot). And it's the only M2x daughter card with a transconductance amplifier circuit topology --- its open loop output impedance is many thousands of ohms (!). Whereas Norwood's open loop output impedance is, by contrast, less than ten ohms.
Also let's wish IPS6 and IPS7 a happy birthday. They were 'born' (Gerbers and schematics posted here) on 21 August 2020.
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I wanted to build Austin but there were parts shortages when I was ordering that prevented me from trying it. Not sure it that is still the case. With the IPS6 I think there was also a part shortage but mostly I just wasn't sure I was up to the challenge of "meticulous device matching".
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think your development of the daughter boards for the M2x was a tremendous gift to the DIY community. I wish I was a winner in the VFET lottery so I could have tried some of your designs for those amps.
Checked this weekend on Austin part availability and all were available except for the transistor 512-KSC1845FTA. This is also out of stock at DigiKey and could not find a source on the web/Google either. Wonder if there is an equivalent. Otherwise it's mid-November before stock is replenished.
And I second Paul's commendation of MJ for his development of the daughterboard amp concept as well as his numerous helpful posts to those of us just starting the DIY journey.
And I second Paul's commendation of MJ for his development of the daughterboard amp concept as well as his numerous helpful posts to those of us just starting the DIY journey.
Aww, thank both of you very much! 😱 
BTW the listener feedback on IPS6 was so positive, that Istole copied its big idea (transconductance amplifier, i.e. an amp whose output is a current not a voltage) into one of the VFET "Front End" cards. The Dreadnought. Only two builders have reviewed Dreadnought so far, both seem to have liked it quite well.
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BTW the listener feedback on IPS6 was so positive, that I
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Am building the M2X with a separate Universal Power Supply and, so, need cases for both. Have any of you separated your build this way and found an ideal chassis for each? Need to prepare the connections as well and wonder if the HiFi2000 cases can be drilled in the back (with a drill press and titanium bits) or whether this must be pre-ordered. Paul mentioned the heat-sinks must be drilled for the circuit boards and mosfets. Any suggestions on what to order from DIY would be much appreciated.
Mark Johnson is a major joy factor in my/our listening experience. He deserves many hugs.
I built (or was given) all daughter boards to date...and evaluated them each in turn. Cedarburg was the clear favorite in the house, beating out Norwood in the end, though it's too much fun to change them all out from time to time for refreshment...vinyl centric system it should be noted—I think it comes down to personal listening tastes and speakers and the room.
Someone up here put a variety of daughter boards on a switch to move between them with ease. That's completely viable and totally awesome.
Can't wait to mess about with MJ Vfet creations.
I built (or was given) all daughter boards to date...and evaluated them each in turn. Cedarburg was the clear favorite in the house, beating out Norwood in the end, though it's too much fun to change them all out from time to time for refreshment...vinyl centric system it should be noted—I think it comes down to personal listening tastes and speakers and the room.
Someone up here put a variety of daughter boards on a switch to move between them with ease. That's completely viable and totally awesome.
Can't wait to mess about with MJ Vfet creations.
First - the HiFi2000 cases can be drilled. I've done it. I think all the back panels are 3mm aluminum. However, Modushop does a wonderful job if you don't want to. Personally, I hate cutting out for the IEC, so I prefer to have that done for me.
You shouldn't have too much trouble working it out on your own. Here are a few questions to get you rolling. Also, bit more info will help others to guide you re: a potential suitable size should you need more help.
- Are you planning on a single dual rail PSU or two?
- Are you planning to use monolithic bridges or individual diodes (and thus that section of the board) for rectification?
- What power transformer(s) are you planning to use?
- What filter caps?
- Any funky stuff now or in the future, like trying out a CLC vs. CRC?
- If you're doing a single PSU now, any dreams of going with dual in the future?
For how much height you need - A few considerations. Do you want to tap holes (or an alternate method) yourself in the baseplate of the chassis for the standoffs? Alternatively, do you want to use an internal perforated baseplate? How tall is the tallest component? (usually filter caps or a choke, but maybe the rectifiers and their heatsinks).
Or, you can just go the route of, "I have tons of space and an empty shelf on my rack, screw it" and get something like a 3U Slimline in 350mm depth. That should git 'er done for just about any combination I could come up with, but many are more imaginative than I. 😀
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