BHD,
I do not think you would be disappointed.
I waited years to hear them. Previously I'd heard the 2Pi towers ( in Wayne's bedroom ), the 3Pi's with the neat veneer, and the super duper woofers, and his 4Pi's numerous times. Wayne doesn't have corners for the 7's in his own home either.
Neither do I....
John
I do not think you would be disappointed.
I waited years to hear them. Previously I'd heard the 2Pi towers ( in Wayne's bedroom ), the 3Pi's with the neat veneer, and the super duper woofers, and his 4Pi's numerous times. Wayne doesn't have corners for the 7's in his own home either.
Neither do I....
John
Found a potentially interesting BIB driver.
Gm or Scott if you could run a sim it be appreciated..
Here's the driver and link to specs : https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-by-tymphany-ne123w-08-4-full-range-woofer-speaker--264-1128
The 3.1mm xmax caught my eye.
Resonant Frequency (Fs)61 HzDC Resistance (Re)6.3 ohms
Voice Coil Inductance (Le)0.06 mH
Mechanical Q (Qms)4.98
Electromagnetic Q (Qes)
0.37
Total Q (Qts)0.467
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)0.21ft3
Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms)1.43 mm/N
BL Product (BL)5.53 TM
Diaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (Mms)4.7g
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax)3.1 mm
Surface Area of Cone (Sd)54.1 cm²
Gm or Scott if you could run a sim it be appreciated..
Here's the driver and link to specs : https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-by-tymphany-ne123w-08-4-full-range-woofer-speaker--264-1128
The 3.1mm xmax caught my eye.
Resonant Frequency (Fs)61 HzDC Resistance (Re)6.3 ohms
Voice Coil Inductance (Le)0.06 mH
Mechanical Q (Qms)4.98
Electromagnetic Q (Qes)
0.37
Total Q (Qts)0.467
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas)0.21ft3
Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms)1.43 mm/N
BL Product (BL)5.53 TM
Diaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (Mms)4.7g
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax)3.1 mm
Surface Area of Cone (Sd)54.1 cm²
Sorry, don't have Excel loaded, but specs are good for BIB plus noticed that it has a deep motor implying the 14.2 mm Xmax may be accurate, so not sure why PE listed 3.1 mm.
Wish someone near PE would go scope it out as the price just became awesome if true.
GM
Wish someone near PE would go scope it out as the price just became awesome if true.
GM
The price is what tempted me and it it really has 14mm Xmax it seens like a deal.
When you have the chance I'd love to see a sim
When you have the chance I'd love to see a sim
Well, only have Hornresp loaded, though with a 61 Hz Fs [at best], too high for anything but a BLH or used with a 'helper' woofer, though IF the 14.2 mm is for real, could get by with a [ML]TL tuned down around 42 Hz and use EQ to boost it to ~flat in room with the downside that this will limit peak SPL to how much Doppler Effect one can tolerate.
GM
GM
Last fall., Madisound put the Mark Audio Alpair 10.3A drivers on sale for $79. I took this as a sign that it was time to buy a pair & build a pair of BIBs!
I have wanted to try a BIB enclosure for some years now, and the A10.3 drivers seem like an ideal choice. They should make useable bass down to 20 Hz in a tall, thin cabinet—I think this makes for a true ‘full range’ speaker.
I modeled the cabinet in MJK’s MathCAD worksheets, settling on exterior dimensions of 88” h x 9.5” w x 12.25” d. I made the baffle 12.5” wide (extending 1.5” beyond each side panel), so that the supra baffle wouldn’t extend beyond the baffle.
The edges of the baffle were routered with a 45 degree bit, covered with red oak edge trim veneer, and stained a dark red mahogany color for contrast.
The bottom is removable, allowing easy access should I need to make any adjustment to the damping. The front side of the slant board is covered from bottom to within 10” from the top with 0.5” Sonic Barrier damping (Parts Express #260-520). The bottom has one layer of 0.5” foam adhered to the panel plus a piece of 1.5” egg crate foam (PE # 260-510).
The supra baffle is made from two pieces of 12mm BB ply, both with outer edges routered to 45 degrees. The driver is mounted on the inner piece, while the outer piece makes the driver flush mounted. Note that the driver hole in the outer piece has a little 45 deg. bevel so that the 10mm thick driver bezel matches to the supra baffle.
The drivers are rather attractive, so rather than hide them behind grill cloth— or leave them totally exposed— I used PE 10” black bar grills (#260-441).
But I did use grill cloth! —to cover the horn mouth, preventing dust from accumulating in the horn.
Finally, I installed adjustable furniture glides (feet) to allow for quick & easy leveling. In the long run, these BIBs probably need to be anchored to the wall so that they can’t tip over & injure someone. I’m looking at 3M Command Adhesive products so I won’t have to drill into the wall.
Build photos, in order:
— attaching back & cleat for bottom to side
— work light used in fit-up; I use dowel pins to assure alignment during both dry fit-up and then glue-up. When doing the dry fit-up, I use a work light inside the cabinet to be sure that joints are tight; light leaks mean either shifting placement of clamps or adjustment with a sanding block.
— gluing baffle; note blue painter’s tape used to catch glue squeeze out, making clean-up easier.
— close-up of supra baffle & grill
I have wanted to try a BIB enclosure for some years now, and the A10.3 drivers seem like an ideal choice. They should make useable bass down to 20 Hz in a tall, thin cabinet—I think this makes for a true ‘full range’ speaker.
I modeled the cabinet in MJK’s MathCAD worksheets, settling on exterior dimensions of 88” h x 9.5” w x 12.25” d. I made the baffle 12.5” wide (extending 1.5” beyond each side panel), so that the supra baffle wouldn’t extend beyond the baffle.
The edges of the baffle were routered with a 45 degree bit, covered with red oak edge trim veneer, and stained a dark red mahogany color for contrast.
The bottom is removable, allowing easy access should I need to make any adjustment to the damping. The front side of the slant board is covered from bottom to within 10” from the top with 0.5” Sonic Barrier damping (Parts Express #260-520). The bottom has one layer of 0.5” foam adhered to the panel plus a piece of 1.5” egg crate foam (PE # 260-510).
The supra baffle is made from two pieces of 12mm BB ply, both with outer edges routered to 45 degrees. The driver is mounted on the inner piece, while the outer piece makes the driver flush mounted. Note that the driver hole in the outer piece has a little 45 deg. bevel so that the 10mm thick driver bezel matches to the supra baffle.
The drivers are rather attractive, so rather than hide them behind grill cloth— or leave them totally exposed— I used PE 10” black bar grills (#260-441).
But I did use grill cloth! —to cover the horn mouth, preventing dust from accumulating in the horn.
Finally, I installed adjustable furniture glides (feet) to allow for quick & easy leveling. In the long run, these BIBs probably need to be anchored to the wall so that they can’t tip over & injure someone. I’m looking at 3M Command Adhesive products so I won’t have to drill into the wall.
Build photos, in order:
— attaching back & cleat for bottom to side
— work light used in fit-up; I use dowel pins to assure alignment during both dry fit-up and then glue-up. When doing the dry fit-up, I use a work light inside the cabinet to be sure that joints are tight; light leaks mean either shifting placement of clamps or adjustment with a sanding block.
— gluing baffle; note blue painter’s tape used to catch glue squeeze out, making clean-up easier.
— close-up of supra baffle & grill
Attachments
The BIBs are in my bedroom system. The room is 20’ 8” by 19’ 5” minus a few feet where the walk-in closet protrudes into the area. (And the room 8’ high.)
I used the 1/3 octave warble tones on Audiophile’s Test CD (#1) and my trusty Radio Shack SPL meter to check the bass response.
freq SPL
1KHz 62
200Hz 68
160Hz 72
125Hz 67
100Hz 74
80Hz 69
63Hz 62
50Hz 70
40Hz 70
31.5Hz 70
25Hz 70
20Hz 60
This is the first time I have measured a low freq response that is FLAT for a whole octave. The BIB seems to work well with my room!
There was discussion previously about mid-freqs coming out of the horn mouth. I used Stereophile’s Test CD #2 to compare the BIBs w/ my Pappa’s TL w/ FF225wk & APT-80. (For details of the PTL’s, see my build thread: Pappa"s TL )
Listening to the sound level at the BIB’s horn mouth and the rear exit of the PTL:
freq BIB PTL
250 strong strong
315 strong weak
400 down ~10dB weak
500 weak very weak
Not sure if this is good or bad performance, but I was surprised at how much came from the horn mouth at 400 Hz.
Their sound? Each driver has its unique signature, although there is often a ‘family’ character to a manufacturer’s line of drivers. In my experience, the smaller Fostex drivers I have used are typically bright. The A10.3 drivers seem to have good high freq extension, but they don’t sound as bright to me as Fostex—I find it a bit more laid back & smoother. Full, rich, and extended. Very enjoyable. When playing orchestral music (one is my test tracks is the fifth movement of Jennifer Higdon’s Concerto for Orchestra, Atlanta Symphony w/ Robert Spano) the A10.3’s do a remarkable job reproducing the bass drum hits, but the mid-range is not as clear, open, and ‘airy’ as either my Pappa’s TL (using Fostex FF225wk and Eminence APT-80 super tweeters) or my small Open Baffles using Fostex FF85k and Eminence Alpha 15a drivers. But reproducing an orchestra ‘in full flight’ is a big ask. This may be as much as can be hoped for from a driver with S(d) = 88 cm^2, when asked to do it all from 20 Hz to 20 KHz. I wonder how the A10.3 might sound if it were paired with an Alpha 15a and crossed over at 500 Hz like the FF85k? I if not stressed by the bass, I suspect that the A10.3 might do a better job in the mids on large scale orchestral music.
In another bass test, I played Temple Caves from Mikey Hart’s Planet Drum. The lowest notes were well presented. Only my old RTR 280DR speakers (currently on loan to my daughter) could reach that far down without the help of a sub.
Over-all, if I had to choose only one pair of speakers to keep (perish the thought!), I would keep the PTL’s, as they are the best all-around performers, even though usable bass extends only to about 35-37 Hz. Between the OB’s and the BIB’s, I would take the BIB’s! While not quite as ‘airy’ as the OB’s, the over-all sound is good, and the bottom end is remarkable!
Photo attached:
— BIBs in room w/ OBs & Fonkens Prime
My Thanks to all who have contributed to the BIB project and this thread! 😀
I used the 1/3 octave warble tones on Audiophile’s Test CD (#1) and my trusty Radio Shack SPL meter to check the bass response.
freq SPL
1KHz 62
200Hz 68
160Hz 72
125Hz 67
100Hz 74
80Hz 69
63Hz 62
50Hz 70
40Hz 70
31.5Hz 70
25Hz 70
20Hz 60
This is the first time I have measured a low freq response that is FLAT for a whole octave. The BIB seems to work well with my room!
There was discussion previously about mid-freqs coming out of the horn mouth. I used Stereophile’s Test CD #2 to compare the BIBs w/ my Pappa’s TL w/ FF225wk & APT-80. (For details of the PTL’s, see my build thread: Pappa"s TL )
Listening to the sound level at the BIB’s horn mouth and the rear exit of the PTL:
freq BIB PTL
250 strong strong
315 strong weak
400 down ~10dB weak
500 weak very weak
Not sure if this is good or bad performance, but I was surprised at how much came from the horn mouth at 400 Hz.
Their sound? Each driver has its unique signature, although there is often a ‘family’ character to a manufacturer’s line of drivers. In my experience, the smaller Fostex drivers I have used are typically bright. The A10.3 drivers seem to have good high freq extension, but they don’t sound as bright to me as Fostex—I find it a bit more laid back & smoother. Full, rich, and extended. Very enjoyable. When playing orchestral music (one is my test tracks is the fifth movement of Jennifer Higdon’s Concerto for Orchestra, Atlanta Symphony w/ Robert Spano) the A10.3’s do a remarkable job reproducing the bass drum hits, but the mid-range is not as clear, open, and ‘airy’ as either my Pappa’s TL (using Fostex FF225wk and Eminence APT-80 super tweeters) or my small Open Baffles using Fostex FF85k and Eminence Alpha 15a drivers. But reproducing an orchestra ‘in full flight’ is a big ask. This may be as much as can be hoped for from a driver with S(d) = 88 cm^2, when asked to do it all from 20 Hz to 20 KHz. I wonder how the A10.3 might sound if it were paired with an Alpha 15a and crossed over at 500 Hz like the FF85k? I if not stressed by the bass, I suspect that the A10.3 might do a better job in the mids on large scale orchestral music.
In another bass test, I played Temple Caves from Mikey Hart’s Planet Drum. The lowest notes were well presented. Only my old RTR 280DR speakers (currently on loan to my daughter) could reach that far down without the help of a sub.
Over-all, if I had to choose only one pair of speakers to keep (perish the thought!), I would keep the PTL’s, as they are the best all-around performers, even though usable bass extends only to about 35-37 Hz. Between the OB’s and the BIB’s, I would take the BIB’s! While not quite as ‘airy’ as the OB’s, the over-all sound is good, and the bottom end is remarkable!
Photo attached:
— BIBs in room w/ OBs & Fonkens Prime
My Thanks to all who have contributed to the BIB project and this thread! 😀
Attachments
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Jim,
Thanks for sharing your measurements and listening impressions. Nice set-up you got there. 🙂
Thanks for sharing your measurements and listening impressions. Nice set-up you got there. 🙂
Last edited:
zman01 & Godzilla,
Thanks! This is probably my last big project--due to lack of room for more large builds, along with health limitations that meant I had to get my wife to assist in this project.
I pretty much knew what the result would be based on listening to the A10.3 as it was breaking in (mids & highs) and the MJK MathCad model (bass), but I am still in awe of the sonic presentation from these BIBs! For the money (less than $500 total), I can't imagine a more satisfying speaker.
Cheers, Jim
Thanks! This is probably my last big project--due to lack of room for more large builds, along with health limitations that meant I had to get my wife to assist in this project.
I pretty much knew what the result would be based on listening to the A10.3 as it was breaking in (mids & highs) and the MJK MathCad model (bass), but I am still in awe of the sonic presentation from these BIBs! For the money (less than $500 total), I can't imagine a more satisfying speaker.
Cheers, Jim
My answer to the tippy BIB issue: 3M Command adhesive products.
I made small wooden blocks 1.5” thick to match the wall spacing of the BIBs in their final location. To the speaker side of the blocks I applied large 3M adhesive pads originally intended for mounting large (removable) hooks. To the other side, I applied 3M picture hanging strips, which are like pieces of super Velcro. The speaker can be moved by pulling the speaker forward to separate the Velcro. Afterward, the speaker can be moved back into place and the Velcro will re-attach. Should I choose to permanently relocate the speaker, I can removed the 3M strips from the wall without damage, and only need to replace the wall side strips at the new location.
This is not as secure as using metal brackets and screws, but should do for my purposes. If you have children who might run into the speakers or try to climb them, then brackets and screws would be the better choice. 😉
I made small wooden blocks 1.5” thick to match the wall spacing of the BIBs in their final location. To the speaker side of the blocks I applied large 3M adhesive pads originally intended for mounting large (removable) hooks. To the other side, I applied 3M picture hanging strips, which are like pieces of super Velcro. The speaker can be moved by pulling the speaker forward to separate the Velcro. Afterward, the speaker can be moved back into place and the Velcro will re-attach. Should I choose to permanently relocate the speaker, I can removed the 3M strips from the wall without damage, and only need to replace the wall side strips at the new location.
This is not as secure as using metal brackets and screws, but should do for my purposes. If you have children who might run into the speakers or try to climb them, then brackets and screws would be the better choice. 😉
Attachments
My new Ciare CH250 drivers have been delivered (new as in second hand new to me). I was planning on making some aperiodic boxes for them and screwing one to my Bib sub, the other placed on top of a piece of furniture. My wife was not amused. She says I could have the assigned corners and put a pair of stereo loudspeakers there. Not "a pile of smaller boxes all around." And not unsightly lumps sticking out of the large ones. Very clear.
Obviously, my CH250 unites are classic open baffle drivers, but I have a very live room and OB is not pleasant here. They don't go very low in periodic boxes. I looked into TL, but obviously also into BiBs.
The basic BiB math gives a volume of about 1450 liter. Big. Does not fit into the assigned corners. I just tried some iterations in hornresp with what ever I could place and came up with 240 cm length, mouth 2090 cm^2. Volume is about 250 liters.
Hornresp suggests response down to about 35 Hz and max SPL at above about 100 dB at 40 Hz. I am thinking about going inverted BiB, rear-firing.
What do you guys think, should I give it a try?
Apparently, I have a mild addiction going on... 😀
Obviously, my CH250 unites are classic open baffle drivers, but I have a very live room and OB is not pleasant here. They don't go very low in periodic boxes. I looked into TL, but obviously also into BiBs.
The basic BiB math gives a volume of about 1450 liter. Big. Does not fit into the assigned corners. I just tried some iterations in hornresp with what ever I could place and came up with 240 cm length, mouth 2090 cm^2. Volume is about 250 liters.
Hornresp suggests response down to about 35 Hz and max SPL at above about 100 dB at 40 Hz. I am thinking about going inverted BiB, rear-firing.
What do you guys think, should I give it a try?
Apparently, I have a mild addiction going on... 😀
No clue, you didn't upload the file to view, so FWIW I used the published specs in an offset driver Alpha TL [141.54 L net] that looks pretty good to me.......
GM
GM
Good point...
Here I have your TL and my BiB (sorry, under-sized pipe horn is more like it), i shifted driver position to 0.56. Some more extension and higher SPL max. Response sims smoother if I introduce a path difference between driver and horn mouth.
I have to think a bit about internal layout. I was thinking about making it like a folder version of my array-BiBs, with a mouth cut out the back and firing into the corner. With the driver exactly on that side of the cabinet, that would not work. Maybe just some triangles on the sides as far back as possible to the rear.
Any suggestions for improvements of this sim? L= 240 cm, Sm= 2090 cm^2.
Here I have your TL and my BiB (sorry, under-sized pipe horn is more like it), i shifted driver position to 0.56. Some more extension and higher SPL max. Response sims smoother if I introduce a path difference between driver and horn mouth.
I have to think a bit about internal layout. I was thinking about making it like a folder version of my array-BiBs, with a mouth cut out the back and firing into the corner. With the driver exactly on that side of the cabinet, that would not work. Maybe just some triangles on the sides as far back as possible to the rear.
Any suggestions for improvements of this sim? L= 240 cm, Sm= 2090 cm^2.
Attachments
Here's the hornresp record. I messed up a bit, used a far higher xmax (3.5 mm instead of 0.5 mm), but the general trend is the same of course.
Basic layout and some ideas for the mouth termination. First two (starting from left) are a full size mouth, I would make the cutouts on both sides of the enclosure. Last two are restricted mouth. The last one is a bit FH inspired. Restricted mouth requires more simulation.
Attachments
I'm sort of warming up most to the second one, the angled full-mouth cut-out. A touch of the original TC inverted BiB with angled mouth.
I also simmed it with one and two Tangband W68-1042 woofers. I have four and this design is basically a somewhat larger and tweaked version of my tangband
BiB. See screenshot, two drivers. It seems to do well. I liked that tangband BiB, it had a really dynamic and punchy sound. It's nice to know this new design could potentially be converted to a tangband BiB "plus".
Only thing is, my wife has been very clear about the amount of big boxes allowed in the house. So if I build this, the current 12" BiB is going to the trash. That sucks.
I also simmed it with one and two Tangband W68-1042 woofers. I have four and this design is basically a somewhat larger and tweaked version of my tangband
BiB. See screenshot, two drivers. It seems to do well. I liked that tangband BiB, it had a really dynamic and punchy sound. It's nice to know this new design could potentially be converted to a tangband BiB "plus".
Only thing is, my wife has been very clear about the amount of big boxes allowed in the house. So if I build this, the current 12" BiB is going to the trash. That sucks.
Attachments
I doubted a bit about posting about this iteration here. But since there is always interest in a multiway BiB and there are always questions about driver placement and integration into the enclosure, I decided to do it.
I am running in those Ciare CH250 drivers, as mid-high units. Due to the high Qts, and because a German diy magazine had a series of designs with this driver in open baffle and aperiodic boxes, I made two (semi-) open baffles. One is placed 10 cm in front of the baffle of the 12" BiB, the other has to stand on its own and has a backpabel placed 10 cm behind it. Both closed top and bottom, sides open. Sides can be stuffed, sealed and ported/aperiodic at some later point in time. All screwed not glued, as versatile and quickly modifiable as I could think of. ;-)
They have about 25 hours on them (have been shelved for years as far as I can tell) and are starting to sound very nice with some EQ. Clear, dynamic, very good with vocals and concert hall acoustics. I love percussion on these things.They are getting warmer over time. First tries with cello were not impressive, but that is changing rapidly.
I will post a drawing of a photo tomorrow. Baffle runs about halfway up the BiB. Looking at it from the listening seat, this is a fairly subtle addition. From the side, it's still OK, but my wife says she doesn't like something sticking out at that height, visually and for safety concerns. She suggests extending it upwards, with a gap for the BiB woofer, and covering it with speaker cloth. I told her about the smaller BiBs for the Ciare drivers and getting rid of the 12" BiB. Visually she thought that would be lots better, sound-wise she was cautious. It's getting to her, this hobby. 😀
I am running in those Ciare CH250 drivers, as mid-high units. Due to the high Qts, and because a German diy magazine had a series of designs with this driver in open baffle and aperiodic boxes, I made two (semi-) open baffles. One is placed 10 cm in front of the baffle of the 12" BiB, the other has to stand on its own and has a backpabel placed 10 cm behind it. Both closed top and bottom, sides open. Sides can be stuffed, sealed and ported/aperiodic at some later point in time. All screwed not glued, as versatile and quickly modifiable as I could think of. ;-)
They have about 25 hours on them (have been shelved for years as far as I can tell) and are starting to sound very nice with some EQ. Clear, dynamic, very good with vocals and concert hall acoustics. I love percussion on these things.They are getting warmer over time. First tries with cello were not impressive, but that is changing rapidly.
I will post a drawing of a photo tomorrow. Baffle runs about halfway up the BiB. Looking at it from the listening seat, this is a fairly subtle addition. From the side, it's still OK, but my wife says she doesn't like something sticking out at that height, visually and for safety concerns. She suggests extending it upwards, with a gap for the BiB woofer, and covering it with speaker cloth. I told her about the smaller BiBs for the Ciare drivers and getting rid of the 12" BiB. Visually she thought that would be lots better, sound-wise she was cautious. It's getting to her, this hobby. 😀