pjanda1 said:
NCH Tone Generator works very well, has plenty of tones types, sweeps - and can even save the tones as wave files. Very Handy.
Scottmoose said:
Scott,
Coming back to page 17 of this thread you were kind enough to sim the FE164 to my request but I was wondering if after all the experience accumulated during this time the sims for this driver still stand or some other refinement to the model were made that could show other dimensions.
In the other hand, before committing a lot of lumber to this driver could we run a graphic simulating the response of these two alternatives? I have doubts if this is a good driver to start with or maybe I should order some other for better results like the FF165 or 225 you have mention.
FE164 parameters as published by Fostex are;
Fs 50 Hz
Qts 0.31
Qms 4.0
Qes 0.34
Vas 32.2 L
Xmax 1.0 mm
Nothing wrong with the FE164. Could perhaps do with the wizzer chopping down a bit, or, better, a pair of Dave's phase plugs.
Actually, I gather the Fostex Fs is a bit optimistic -it's closer to being 58Hz. However, forget the early stuff. This should be all you'll ever need.
Line = 140in
Zdriver = 30.5in
Sl = 125.875in^2 (9.5in wide x 13.25in deep internal, not including baffle).
Actually, I gather the Fostex Fs is a bit optimistic -it's closer to being 58Hz. However, forget the early stuff. This should be all you'll ever need.
Line = 140in
Zdriver = 30.5in
Sl = 125.875in^2 (9.5in wide x 13.25in deep internal, not including baffle).
Attachments
Scottmoose said:
Scott,
Sim looks pretty nice and thanx for the valuable comments. Will keep posted for the results.
Happy Christmas
this high frequency leakage thing
Mention is made in here of HF leakage out the horn.
What does that mean exactly?
I'm noticing some 'lack of crispness' on piano and
other instruments. My BIB isn't treated with
much stuffing except at the peak end.
Scott sez a supra baffle should not change the
character of what the driver puts out but to me
it's a question.
I didn't take the bottom plate off and treat with
a layer of anything there at this point.
Mention is made in here of HF leakage out the horn.
What does that mean exactly?
I'm noticing some 'lack of crispness' on piano and
other instruments. My BIB isn't treated with
much stuffing except at the peak end.
Scott sez a supra baffle should not change the
character of what the driver puts out but to me
it's a question.
I didn't take the bottom plate off and treat with
a layer of anything there at this point.
I asked about stuffing earlier, but moray was the only one who answered.
Thank you for that helpfull and considered reply.
Doesn't anyone else have an opinion on what is best to use, and how much?
All the best to everyone for Christmas.
John.
Thank you for that helpfull and considered reply.
Doesn't anyone else have an opinion on what is best to use, and how much?
All the best to everyone for Christmas.
John.
It's been answered a few times throughout the thread, but trying to dig it out isn't easy.
HF leakage refers the the fact that these are chamberless horns. In most BLH designs, some form of chamber, sometimes refered to (generally incorrectly) as a 'Compression Chamber' is used. It has a few functions, but the major one is that it sets the upper cut-off point of the horn (the lower cut-off point being determined by the circumference of the mouth, and the amount of gain by the CSA of the throat and the pathlength of the horn). In the case of the BIB, there is no chamber, so the horn continues operating far higher than in chambered designs. This can sometimes result in unwanted amounts of midrange information being emitted from the terminus -the 'HF leakage' referred to (though I suppose that in this case, we should classify the 'H' as standing for 'higher' rather 'high' frequency). This can muddle the sound somewhat, and present an apparant discontinuity due to it being emitted from dramatically different places.
The best thing to do it to try to absorb it without damaging the lowest frequency reinforcement. Couple of ways you can do this. Stuffing the pipe above the driver is a good start. Placing some damping material directly behind the driver to prevent reflections coming back through the cone is also useful. A thick (about 1in) layer on the base of the pipe should help absorb the remaining unwanted higher frequencies which have survived the damping above the driver, while leaving the lowest frequencies alone.
GM advises lining the front of the sloping internal baffle, and one wall of the cabinet (just the front portion) which should do much the same thing. He also suggests when building, using a lossier material like particle board for the internal baffle, which should help kill the unwanted HF as well.
Suprabaffles can be useful. They don't alter the fundamental character of the drive-unit (you'd have to modify the drive-unit itself to do that) but they can have an interesting effect. They'll shift the baffle-step point slightly, though as these ae intended for corner positioning, or right back against a wall, and operate over a relatively wide bandwidth this is less of an issue than for other cabinets. They also help slightly mass-load the driver, scatter reflections off the surround and help with wave-launch. Olson suggests that a pure (flat) circle is the worst possible shape for one, though I understand the sonic results can be quite pleasing. Terry Cain's podular false baffles had a constantly varying radius which will have changed that. They're well worth experimenting with. As a starting point, make it about 6 - 7in over the diameter of the driver.
Happy Christmas to all
Scott
HF leakage refers the the fact that these are chamberless horns. In most BLH designs, some form of chamber, sometimes refered to (generally incorrectly) as a 'Compression Chamber' is used. It has a few functions, but the major one is that it sets the upper cut-off point of the horn (the lower cut-off point being determined by the circumference of the mouth, and the amount of gain by the CSA of the throat and the pathlength of the horn). In the case of the BIB, there is no chamber, so the horn continues operating far higher than in chambered designs. This can sometimes result in unwanted amounts of midrange information being emitted from the terminus -the 'HF leakage' referred to (though I suppose that in this case, we should classify the 'H' as standing for 'higher' rather 'high' frequency). This can muddle the sound somewhat, and present an apparant discontinuity due to it being emitted from dramatically different places.
The best thing to do it to try to absorb it without damaging the lowest frequency reinforcement. Couple of ways you can do this. Stuffing the pipe above the driver is a good start. Placing some damping material directly behind the driver to prevent reflections coming back through the cone is also useful. A thick (about 1in) layer on the base of the pipe should help absorb the remaining unwanted higher frequencies which have survived the damping above the driver, while leaving the lowest frequencies alone.
GM advises lining the front of the sloping internal baffle, and one wall of the cabinet (just the front portion) which should do much the same thing. He also suggests when building, using a lossier material like particle board for the internal baffle, which should help kill the unwanted HF as well.
Suprabaffles can be useful. They don't alter the fundamental character of the drive-unit (you'd have to modify the drive-unit itself to do that) but they can have an interesting effect. They'll shift the baffle-step point slightly, though as these ae intended for corner positioning, or right back against a wall, and operate over a relatively wide bandwidth this is less of an issue than for other cabinets. They also help slightly mass-load the driver, scatter reflections off the surround and help with wave-launch. Olson suggests that a pure (flat) circle is the worst possible shape for one, though I understand the sonic results can be quite pleasing. Terry Cain's podular false baffles had a constantly varying radius which will have changed that. They're well worth experimenting with. As a starting point, make it about 6 - 7in over the diameter of the driver.
Happy Christmas to all
Scott
HF leakage defined
[quoted for reference]
Ok and thanks for the detailed reply. I've seen the
compression chamber on things like the -- Austin
I think - and executed by layertone.
It may be a fools errand to have a BIB and an MLTL
set up on the same stereo rt/left but I am an amateur
so I don't know many rules. What it _does_ do is
give a real time reference for these things I am running
into.
Ideally, I'd have an a/b switch box, more speakers and
more space.
Scottmoose said:
[quoted for reference]
Ok and thanks for the detailed reply. I've seen the
compression chamber on things like the -- Austin
I think - and executed by layertone.
It may be a fools errand to have a BIB and an MLTL
set up on the same stereo rt/left but I am an amateur
so I don't know many rules. What it _does_ do is
give a real time reference for these things I am running
into.
Ideally, I'd have an a/b switch box, more speakers and
more space.
It's not double bind, but the designs are so different, I don't think anyone would need to worry about possible sonic differences being only subjective. I wouldn't worry about 'rules' either. There are laws of physics which are used to design speakers and govern their operation. But there are no rules about how you listen -the ultimate object is enjoyment! Try an MLTL on one channel, a BIB on the other. Not scientific, but fun. I remember Martin mentioning on his site that he tried doing just that with his FE208Sigma and Lowther MLTLs.
More speakers? More space? I know the feeling -so would I. At the risk of lowering the tone (me?
) I'd also like to spend the night with Karen Hardy (the dancer) but the likelihood is equally bleak. 
More speakers? More space? I know the feeling -so would I. At the risk of lowering the tone (me?
) I'd also like to spend the night with Karen Hardy (the dancer) but the likelihood is equally bleak. lowering the tone and off topic
who's Karen Hardy?
was she on Hullabaloo or Shindig?
;-)
Scottmoose said:It's not double bind, but the designs are so different, I don't think anyone would need to worry about possible sonic differences being only subjective. I wouldn't worry about 'rules' either. There are laws of physics which are used to design speakers and govern their operation. But there are no rules about how you listen -the ultimate object is enjoyment! Try an MLTL on one channel, a BIB on the other. Not scientific, but fun. I remember Martin mentioning on his site that he tried doing just that with his FE208Sigma and Lowther MLTLs.
More speakers? More space? I know the feeling -so would I. At the risk of lowering the tone (me?
who's Karen Hardy?
was she on Hullabaloo or Shindig?
;-)
Strictly Come Dancing, which she won last night with cricketer Mark Ramprakash. Karen retired from professional competitive dancing 7 years ago, after winning everything there was to win throughout the 1990s, and she's regarded by many (me included) as the greatest latin dancer of all time. Typically, her website is flashplayer based, so it's difficult to get any really good pictures of her. Dave's posted a shot of her below, so here's one of her doing a spectacular Argentine Tango with Mark.
Attachments
Re: lowering the tone and off topic
http://www.karenhardy.com/ (warning: flash site)
dave
loninappleton said:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://www.karenhardy.com/ (warning: flash site)
dave
I hate flashplayer sites. Dave, you're the graphics guru. How does one go about capturing a still image? Apart from with considerable difficulty.
Scottmoose said:
Well in OS X you use the built-in screen snapshot facility... in Windoz?
dave
Tragically, that's what I'm stuck with, and if it's got a screen-shot facility, I don't know about it. I really should get a Mac. At least a laptop Mac.
Greets!
Snag-It 5 will freeze whatever is flashing to allow you to frame it, or at least it does on her site:
Anyway, hope everybody has a nice safe holiday!
And on that note :
http://www.thecompassgroup.biz/merryxmas.swf
GM
Snag-It 5 will freeze whatever is flashing to allow you to frame it, or at least it does on her site:
Anyway, hope everybody has a nice safe holiday!
And on that note :
http://www.thecompassgroup.biz/merryxmas.swf
GM
Attachments
that santa thing
That one must be going around... I saw it on a Linux site
as well.
Merry Christmas.
GM said:
That one must be going around... I saw it on a Linux site
as well.
Merry Christmas.
hello all,
i like pinpoint imaging.
the bib is a conical horn without a cc, thus it has a very high upper cut-off frequency --> much midrange information coming from the backhorn. i wonder if the imagine suffers. is the imagine with a 108es/bib as good as with the 108es/frugels? or does a bib at least come close the the frugels?
regards.
mike
i like pinpoint imaging.
the bib is a conical horn without a cc, thus it has a very high upper cut-off frequency --> much midrange information coming from the backhorn. i wonder if the imagine suffers. is the imagine with a 108es/bib as good as with the 108es/frugels? or does a bib at least come close the the frugels?
regards.
mike