Scottmoose said:
Hi Scott, thanks for the answer(as usual).
So this is basically what I should do...(correct me if I'm wrong):
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The only misty thing is the pennant...; If I got it right(translated actually), the banner shape absorber should be triangular & fixed diagonally on the top of the mounth (like in the picture)? What about the proportions?
Ciao. Fab.
Hi Peter, I didn't see your post before posting. Thanks for the "addenda" regarding the stuffing possibilities. Adding thinner felt on the front sides wouldn't be too difficult thanks to the detachable base.
If I remember well in the past you tried some kind of treatment to the mounth, did you also applied the pennant option to your Monacor's BIB?
Ciao. Fab.
About the pennant, if I got GM right, it should hang diagonal in the pipe all way down without touching bottom.
I use a simple square piece that are wedged between the walls and only 60cm long.
I had a picture of that but where is it now??
I didn't try any treatment of mouth, only LOTS of damping strategies.
Cheers!
I use a simple square piece that are wedged between the walls and only 60cm long.
I had a picture of that but where is it now??
I didn't try any treatment of mouth, only LOTS of damping strategies.
Cheers!
http://www.zillaspeak.com/bib-howtobuild.asp
Scroll to the bottom for stuffing strategies. Personally, I think what you have done is fine to get you up and running. I would leave out the pennant for now. You can always add it later if you want to experiment – changing its shape, how far down into the speaker it hangs and how it is attached to the speaker. Once the speaker is positioned in the room you can spend some time listening to it and make determinations about how to improve the sound. For example, once I had my BIBs playing music I found there was a lot of midrange coming out the top. In small amounts I stuffed Acoustastuff down to the bottom using a broomstick. Of course I overstuffed and had to remove some (with the BIB laid down on its side I dragged it out with the broomstick). Over a few days I found the combination that made me happy.
Although it’s extra work, one of the benefits to DIY is that you get to fine tune your speaker for best sound.
Even tho the BIB is designed for bass, I cannot help but luxuriate in the larger than life midrange produced by these speakers. Boxed speakers always sound boxy compared to BIBs. Once you go BIB you may never go back to typical speaker designs.
Peace,
Godzilla
Scroll to the bottom for stuffing strategies. Personally, I think what you have done is fine to get you up and running. I would leave out the pennant for now. You can always add it later if you want to experiment – changing its shape, how far down into the speaker it hangs and how it is attached to the speaker. Once the speaker is positioned in the room you can spend some time listening to it and make determinations about how to improve the sound. For example, once I had my BIBs playing music I found there was a lot of midrange coming out the top. In small amounts I stuffed Acoustastuff down to the bottom using a broomstick. Of course I overstuffed and had to remove some (with the BIB laid down on its side I dragged it out with the broomstick). Over a few days I found the combination that made me happy.
Although it’s extra work, one of the benefits to DIY is that you get to fine tune your speaker for best sound.
Even tho the BIB is designed for bass, I cannot help but luxuriate in the larger than life midrange produced by these speakers. Boxed speakers always sound boxy compared to BIBs. Once you go BIB you may never go back to typical speaker designs.
Peace,
Godzilla
About stuffing...
Thanks Peter and thanks Godzilla
I will start without pennant, in fact it will be the easiest thing to try next.
Anyway, opting for a detachable base was a good idea for adding extra material later.
So, tonight I will glue the ramaining two sides and fix the bases. Next the "super baffle"!
I like this!!! Thanks everybody for get me involved into this hobby!
Ciao. Fab.
Thanks Peter and thanks Godzilla
I will start without pennant, in fact it will be the easiest thing to try next.
Anyway, opting for a detachable base was a good idea for adding extra material later.
So, tonight I will glue the ramaining two sides and fix the bases. Next the "super baffle"!
I like this!!! Thanks everybody for get me involved into this hobby!
Ciao. Fab.
Hi Fab, good to here from you again, I'd wondered what happened to you.
As Peter said, every speaker and location is different, but for what it's worth, I'll pass on my
experience. I stuffed up to the point as you have with polyfil and placed a square of wool felt
behind the driver. On the floor of the cab I put a layer of polyfil about 5cm thick. It sounded
OK, but was going to start playing with quantities when Scott said he now preferred GM's
approach of lining rather than stuffing. So out came the stuffing in the pointy end, and in
went 1/2" wool felt. From just below the driver to the just short of the point, on the back,
(behind the driver) and one side. Some things improved, some didn't.
The next try, I split the felt in half (now a 1/4"thick ), and placed a small ball of polyfil in the
point. I pulled out the polyfil in the bottom, and reduced the amount to about a third of what
I had previously. I teased out the polyfil and placed it into a bag made of filter material ( it's
almost invisable) and gave it another listen.
I haven't touched anything since. It's absolutely incredible.
Some people are having trouble with high frequencies escaping out the mouth, but I can't
hear any coming out of my cabs. These are made of 3.5 cm thick particle board, and it may
be playing a part too. So once again everyone's are going to be different.
You can only give it your best guess and hope, but making changes after the cabs are put
together isn't easy. Gluing the felt while reaching in through the speaker hole is not the
best approach.
All the best with your efforts, John.
As Peter said, every speaker and location is different, but for what it's worth, I'll pass on my
experience. I stuffed up to the point as you have with polyfil and placed a square of wool felt
behind the driver. On the floor of the cab I put a layer of polyfil about 5cm thick. It sounded
OK, but was going to start playing with quantities when Scott said he now preferred GM's
approach of lining rather than stuffing. So out came the stuffing in the pointy end, and in
went 1/2" wool felt. From just below the driver to the just short of the point, on the back,
(behind the driver) and one side. Some things improved, some didn't.
The next try, I split the felt in half (now a 1/4"thick ), and placed a small ball of polyfil in the
point. I pulled out the polyfil in the bottom, and reduced the amount to about a third of what
I had previously. I teased out the polyfil and placed it into a bag made of filter material ( it's
almost invisable) and gave it another listen.
I haven't touched anything since. It's absolutely incredible.
Some people are having trouble with high frequencies escaping out the mouth, but I can't
hear any coming out of my cabs. These are made of 3.5 cm thick particle board, and it may
be playing a part too. So once again everyone's are going to be different.
You can only give it your best guess and hope, but making changes after the cabs are put
together isn't easy. Gluing the felt while reaching in through the speaker hole is not the
best approach.
All the best with your efforts, John.
Re: About stuffing
Hi Copperhead,
Thanks for your help!
Certainly, Peter and You are right considering that every cab, positioning and rooms properties makes differencies in order of stuff/lining procedures.
In fact I don't know the response my BIBs will have, due to a mixture of different inside woods(expecially concerning sides walls made with OSB fiber wood), so everything to discover at the moment.
Second, the room is not treated yet....(that's another question!)
But anyway, this first BIB is more an exercise for me, and definitely not the last one!
I've marked all the suggestions, yours, Copperhead, Peter's, Godzilla's, Scott's, and GM ones, so that time by time I will make proper adjustments. Easy no? No!!!!!! But good fun, anyway.
NOW, I'm putting the "mosquito in the ear" :
The net is full of interesting tweaks for room treatments and whatsoever;
But considering BIB peculiarity and the basic three positioning (corners, side or rear walls, none of the two), any cunning device?
Ciao, Fab.
Hi Copperhead,
Thanks for your help!
Certainly, Peter and You are right considering that every cab, positioning and rooms properties makes differencies in order of stuff/lining procedures.
In fact I don't know the response my BIBs will have, due to a mixture of different inside woods(expecially concerning sides walls made with OSB fiber wood), so everything to discover at the moment.
Second, the room is not treated yet....(that's another question!)
But anyway, this first BIB is more an exercise for me, and definitely not the last one!
I've marked all the suggestions, yours, Copperhead, Peter's, Godzilla's, Scott's, and GM ones, so that time by time I will make proper adjustments. Easy no? No!!!!!! But good fun, anyway.
NOW, I'm putting the "mosquito in the ear" :
The net is full of interesting tweaks for room treatments and whatsoever;
But considering BIB peculiarity and the basic three positioning (corners, side or rear walls, none of the two), any cunning device?
Ciao, Fab.
Damping of the cabinets and the room is down to your own circumstances as Jeff & Peter have noted -there's no definative, just a few ideas for starting points which you then adjust to taste once they're in position. FWIW, bookshelves are good at damping bass down, but boom is not something pipe-horns of this kind at any rate appear to suffer from (assuming the cabinet / driver match is good). There's any number of things you can do about the treble & midrange -a nice soft sofa is a good start if they're a bit fierce.
Re the positioning, again, down to choice, though they're designed to have at least one wall nearby to reduce the ripple. In some rooms, particularly those with lots of solid surfaces, the LF end can get a bit over-powerful when the cabinets are positioned into corners -not boomy, just a bit too much. So a rear wall is good. For some smaller rooms, a good trick is to keep them against the side-wall, pull them forward, away from the rear wall, about 2-3ft, and toe them in slightly. But again, depends on your system, room and taste.
Re the positioning, again, down to choice, though they're designed to have at least one wall nearby to reduce the ripple. In some rooms, particularly those with lots of solid surfaces, the LF end can get a bit over-powerful when the cabinets are positioned into corners -not boomy, just a bit too much. So a rear wall is good. For some smaller rooms, a good trick is to keep them against the side-wall, pull them forward, away from the rear wall, about 2-3ft, and toe them in slightly. But again, depends on your system, room and taste.
BIBs room treatment
Thanks Scott.
I got your reasoning.
What I was mumbling about is room treatment in Bib's function.
Normally it's useful to place traps or bass traps in the corners(or at least in the rear ones), treat part or the ceiling edges, place eventually abfusors and/or diffusors on the walls, diffusors on the ceiling etc....
All these treatments are ment considering common speakers, but what happen as we're talking about bibs, designed for walls & corners?
I know for sure that I have to stand up for some stuff, the room is still too reflective and alive, too many echoes....
Ciao. Fab.
Thanks Scott.
I got your reasoning.
What I was mumbling about is room treatment in Bib's function.
Normally it's useful to place traps or bass traps in the corners(or at least in the rear ones), treat part or the ceiling edges, place eventually abfusors and/or diffusors on the walls, diffusors on the ceiling etc....
All these treatments are ment considering common speakers, but what happen as we're talking about bibs, designed for walls & corners?
I know for sure that I have to stand up for some stuff, the room is still too reflective and alive, too many echoes....
Ciao. Fab.
I know. See my second sentence... 
Pipe-horns aren't much different in terms of room treatment requirements to other speakers, although in my experience with them, the upward-venting types at least have an odd dipole flavour to their LF presentation (goodness knows why, as the physics is the exact reverse) and don't tend to suffer from boominess, assuming they've been properly designed, so they're more forgiving than most.
You can usually get good results just by being crafty with your choice of decor and furnishings. Book-cases filled with books are very effective at damping down bass frequencies & diffusing higher frequencies. A nice sofa will absorb more LF than most dedicated traps you can buy. An attractive patterned rug hung on the wall, or curtains you can close are good at reducing reflections & are all adjustable. If you want to go to more extreme, dedicated types of room treatment, then these should get you started:
Terry Cain came up with some DIY diffusors which should work very well & also form quite an artistic arrangement, if you pass them off as modern art / sculpture: http://melhuish.org/audio/DIYOT3.html
A DIY version of these shouldn't be too tricky either: http://www.eighthnerve.com/products.html The upper Corners and Triangles could be particularly interesting from a corner-loaded pipe-horn's POV, while the lower rectangles & seams might be interesting also, possibly elsewhere in the room.
Finally -for interest's sake, a DIY Roomlens is interesting -I've heard a pair, and they did make a difference to the particular room & system they were in (the result was a near designer soundstage -you could move instruments, even voices around): http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a3.htm and the following additions on this particular subject: http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/307.html, http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/8679.html, http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/13630.html
Hope this is of some use
Scott
Pipe-horns aren't much different in terms of room treatment requirements to other speakers, although in my experience with them, the upward-venting types at least have an odd dipole flavour to their LF presentation (goodness knows why, as the physics is the exact reverse) and don't tend to suffer from boominess, assuming they've been properly designed, so they're more forgiving than most.You can usually get good results just by being crafty with your choice of decor and furnishings. Book-cases filled with books are very effective at damping down bass frequencies & diffusing higher frequencies. A nice sofa will absorb more LF than most dedicated traps you can buy. An attractive patterned rug hung on the wall, or curtains you can close are good at reducing reflections & are all adjustable. If you want to go to more extreme, dedicated types of room treatment, then these should get you started:
Terry Cain came up with some DIY diffusors which should work very well & also form quite an artistic arrangement, if you pass them off as modern art / sculpture: http://melhuish.org/audio/DIYOT3.html
A DIY version of these shouldn't be too tricky either: http://www.eighthnerve.com/products.html The upper Corners and Triangles could be particularly interesting from a corner-loaded pipe-horn's POV, while the lower rectangles & seams might be interesting also, possibly elsewhere in the room.
Finally -for interest's sake, a DIY Roomlens is interesting -I've heard a pair, and they did make a difference to the particular room & system they were in (the result was a near designer soundstage -you could move instruments, even voices around): http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a3.htm and the following additions on this particular subject: http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/307.html, http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/8679.html, http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/13630.html
Hope this is of some use
Scott
Personally, I think there is something dang sexy about Schroeder diffusers. Oh man, study-related cabin fever has set in. I do not know if directional drivers would benefit from these if one wishes to keep the diffusor size / weight manageable.
Info:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997_articles/jan97/controlrooms.html
Calculator
http://www.mhsoft.nl/diffusor2.asp#calcul
Cheers
Raymond
Info:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997_articles/jan97/controlrooms.html
Calculator
http://www.mhsoft.nl/diffusor2.asp#calcul
Cheers
Raymond
Re : room treatment
Hi Scott,
thanks for the links. I knew J.Risch one, interesting for many tweaks.
Happy to know that BIBs are a little less room dependent than other speakers, so that, apart from furnitures, carpets etc, it wouldn't be too difficult to add specific devices like traps, lenses, abf-diffusers....
I was considering to get a RadioShack audio meter to check the room bahavior, then will see.
Hi Rcdaniel,
Interesting subject, your link is a nice "compendium" to some information I have stored.
Did you built your own diffusors? Work well?
Ciao ciao, Fab.
Hi Scott,
thanks for the links. I knew J.Risch one, interesting for many tweaks.
Happy to know that BIBs are a little less room dependent than other speakers, so that, apart from furnitures, carpets etc, it wouldn't be too difficult to add specific devices like traps, lenses, abf-diffusers....
I was considering to get a RadioShack audio meter to check the room bahavior, then will see.
Hi Rcdaniel,
Interesting subject, your link is a nice "compendium" to some information I have stored.
Did you built your own diffusors? Work well?
Ciao ciao, Fab.
Hi Fab,
No, I've not built any as yet, so can not share personal experiences. Many prof' studio fitters use them, so I would hazard a guess they have some significant benefits, especially in otherwise adequately damped rooms. Sorry I can't help any more than that.
I plan on building these in the future, though I am moving from Brisbane to Sydney in 6 -12 months, so they may have to wait.
Keep well
Raymond
No, I've not built any as yet, so can not share personal experiences. Many prof' studio fitters use them, so I would hazard a guess they have some significant benefits, especially in otherwise adequately damped rooms. Sorry I can't help any more than that.
I plan on building these in the future, though I am moving from Brisbane to Sydney in 6 -12 months, so they may have to wait.
Keep well
Raymond
Interesting historical note guys -it looks like TC used the traditional Zdriver placement (driver centred where line CSA matches Sd) in all his prototypes. Thought I'd mention it for reference sake, though I'd strongly advise sticking with the 0.2 - 0.217 line length for your own builds as giving the best response.
Hi!
Regarding hard/reflecting rooms. If we talk about bass, these beauties are the best box speakers I've heard in a concrete bunker. I've been living in about 15 different homes the last 20 years and I had problems in most of them. This room I have right now, is the worst room so far and no problems concerning booming.
Cheers!
Regarding hard/reflecting rooms. If we talk about bass, these beauties are the best box speakers I've heard in a concrete bunker. I've been living in about 15 different homes the last 20 years and I had problems in most of them. This room I have right now, is the worst room so far and no problems concerning booming.
Cheers!
I would have to agree regards boomy bass. Strong, powerful and devoid of boom.
The thing I am amazed about (other than the quality/quantity of bass) is how even the spread of bass is around the room, no real sweet spots in terms of level of bass. My previous system (12" infinite baffle subs) had very distinct places in the room where the bass was strongest - never where you sat of course
Chris
The thing I am amazed about (other than the quality/quantity of bass) is how even the spread of bass is around the room, no real sweet spots in terms of level of bass. My previous system (12" infinite baffle subs) had very distinct places in the room where the bass was strongest - never where you sat of course
Chris
From a discussion I had with Terry a couple of years back:
"A friend across the alley has a pair of my old 168 BIB driven by a Nakamichi receiver, set in an alcove it would be too much bass except that there’s so little boom. It’s all hard and pulpy bass and smooth. Displacement has merits, bigger is better and longer is stronger."
He wasn't wrong.
"A friend across the alley has a pair of my old 168 BIB driven by a Nakamichi receiver, set in an alcove it would be too much bass except that there’s so little boom. It’s all hard and pulpy bass and smooth. Displacement has merits, bigger is better and longer is stronger."
He wasn't wrong.
