Probably. 
Terry's use of language did err toward the 'creative', even to the oxmoron stage. I know what he was trying to convey though -these pipe-horns do have considerable impact when called for, but like other horns they retain their apparantly un-stressed nature & don't err toward that under-damped boom many reflex boxes suffer from. Hardly the most advanced cabinet on the planet of course, but in VFM stakes, I can't think of much better.
Terry's use of language did err toward the 'creative', even to the oxmoron stage. I know what he was trying to convey though -these pipe-horns do have considerable impact when called for, but like other horns they retain their apparantly un-stressed nature & don't err toward that under-damped boom many reflex boxes suffer from. Hardly the most advanced cabinet on the planet of course, but in VFM stakes, I can't think of much better.The thing I am amazed about (other than the quality/quantity of bass) is how even the spread of bass is around the room, no real sweet spots in terms of level of bass. My previous system (12" infinite baffle subs) had very distinct places in the room where the bass was strongest - never where you sat of course
That's not what I'm hearing.
There are definite valleys and crests in the bass level. Luckily there's a crest at the listening position.
With the wavelength of bass what it is, I guess there's no other way.
Gert
I have to agree with Timolien. There are places in the room that have more bass. BUT unlike boom boxes, there are just more bass but not booming. And there are certain frequencies that are higher in level. However compairing to "normal" speakers with, for most of the time, a drooning bass, I can live with the bibs short comings.
To be honest, have you ever heard a live concert without these peaks and dips. Hmm, wait a minute! Come to think about it, outdoor concerts come close to that but never indoor. At least not rock concerts in clubs. Yep, there are so many things that influence sound. Further more, I don't want to sit in a room with bass traps, diffusors and what have you. I'm sure there are estetical sollutions for this, but I'm sitting satisfied for now!
Cheers
To be honest, have you ever heard a live concert without these peaks and dips. Hmm, wait a minute! Come to think about it, outdoor concerts come close to that but never indoor. At least not rock concerts in clubs. Yep, there are so many things that influence sound. Further more, I don't want to sit in a room with bass traps, diffusors and what have you. I'm sure there are estetical sollutions for this, but I'm sitting satisfied for now!
Cheers
timolien said:
Well maybe I am gulty of overstating the case but certainly not the room peaks I have had with my previous system.
Just a note, well maybe a rave, on the sound of my FE168Sigma BIBs. I have recently completed another upgrade to my Philips CD880 CD player (TDA1541A S1 DAC) replacing the output stage entirely with stage based on the Pedja Rogic AD844 design. The improvement is so easily heard thriough the BIBs, what I am hearing now is way beyond anything I have heard from a domestic system. The power accross the whole spectrum is almost palpable, bass in particular clean, tight, with incredible impact.
Any change in the front end is clearly heard, more so than any other system I have heard. There is clearly such potential with the 168 BIBs - I wonder when I will reach a point of full potential - if ever!
I wouldn't. Because it'd depend on what sonic properties you value most, which you're willing to compromise on, the rest of your system & room, & what sort of music you primarily listen to. I should go into politics. There's so many drivers we can load into pipe-horns, it'd be tricky to decide too. Worse, I wouldn't run them solo, but with support at either end. FR to me is really WR & pushing the XOs out of the critical regions.
OK, if I were running FE208ESigmas for example, I had the space, & the money, I'd probably fancy having them in a double back-horn of my own design, hypex or hyperbolic expansion (probably with differential sizing), with horn-loaded super-tweeters and either a pair of tapped horns or VOTT style boxes to handle the LF. That's one off the cuff idea anyway. Of course, the additional complexity brings it's own issues with it -no free lunch in audio, as GM often points out. In fact that's an interestion question I keep meaning to put to him -Greg; what would you do? Sorry it's been a while since I last emailed BTW -a million things on, & never enough hours in the day.
BTW guys -if you want to test the dynamics on your setup, & hear what real-life speaker compression sounds like, see if you can get hold of A Slight Case of Overbombing: Greatest Hits Vol. 1 by Sisters of Mercy. Shouldn't cost much. Melodramatic goth metal with some dance beats. Not exactly to all tastes, but its actually quite atmospheric, very slickly produced, clever for what it is & well worth a listen, especially when you just need to rock out. Fire up 'Temple of Love' -this is a re-recording of their 1983 track, with some brilliant twists, such as adding a middle-eastern element with Yeminite singer Ofra Haza. Then crank the volume. Because trust me; you can't listen to Sisters of Mercy at anything other than full-power.
It should thunder.
If that's a little over-dramatic for you, another good way is to buy Pink Floyd's Live in Pompii DVD & crank things up.
There's so many drivers we can load into pipe-horns, it'd be tricky to decide too. Worse, I wouldn't run them solo, but with support at either end. FR to me is really WR & pushing the XOs out of the critical regions.OK, if I were running FE208ESigmas for example, I had the space, & the money, I'd probably fancy having them in a double back-horn of my own design, hypex or hyperbolic expansion (probably with differential sizing), with horn-loaded super-tweeters and either a pair of tapped horns or VOTT style boxes to handle the LF. That's one off the cuff idea anyway. Of course, the additional complexity brings it's own issues with it -no free lunch in audio, as GM often points out. In fact that's an interestion question I keep meaning to put to him -Greg; what would you do? Sorry it's been a while since I last emailed BTW -a million things on, & never enough hours in the day.
BTW guys -if you want to test the dynamics on your setup, & hear what real-life speaker compression sounds like, see if you can get hold of A Slight Case of Overbombing: Greatest Hits Vol. 1 by Sisters of Mercy. Shouldn't cost much. Melodramatic goth metal with some dance beats. Not exactly to all tastes, but its actually quite atmospheric, very slickly produced, clever for what it is & well worth a listen, especially when you just need to rock out. Fire up 'Temple of Love' -this is a re-recording of their 1983 track, with some brilliant twists, such as adding a middle-eastern element with Yeminite singer Ofra Haza. Then crank the volume. Because trust me; you can't listen to Sisters of Mercy at anything other than full-power.
It should thunder.If that's a little over-dramatic for you, another good way is to buy Pink Floyd's Live in Pompii DVD & crank things up.
Thanks Scott.
OK, I guess that was one of those questions - thanks for the reply anyway.
I have been so blown away by the results of the 168 BIB I tend to think that FR is the only way to go. But anything else I look at, well larger than a 168 anyway, ends up with reinforcement at the top end. maybe it ain't such a bad thing. 208 sigmas with super tweets are very tempting. One day, one day. Prolly stick with BIBs tho - they look so darn good in my room and, of course, ease of build.
Talking of WR with reinforcement that is effectively what me pre BIB system was - 6' ribbons with 12" drivers below 125hz, lotsa people used super tweets with them too. You are right - if you need a crossover at all keeping it away from the critical frequencies is the way to go.
OK, I guess that was one of those questions - thanks for the reply anyway.
I have been so blown away by the results of the 168 BIB I tend to think that FR is the only way to go. But anything else I look at, well larger than a 168 anyway, ends up with reinforcement at the top end. maybe it ain't such a bad thing. 208 sigmas with super tweets are very tempting. One day, one day. Prolly stick with BIBs tho - they look so darn good in my room and, of course, ease of build.
Talking of WR with reinforcement that is effectively what me pre BIB system was - 6' ribbons with 12" drivers below 125hz, lotsa people used super tweets with them too. You are right - if you need a crossover at all keeping it away from the critical frequencies is the way to go.
>>> 208 sigmas with super tweets are very tempting...
Indeed!
I consider supertweeters my friend. I also consider subwoofers my friend.
BIBs (pick a driver, any driver) make excellent main speakers with supertweeters and subwoofers playing small supporting roles. You dont even need them but they do round things out overall IMO.
Maybe not for the purist full-ranger but certainly a way to satisfy more of the masses with more drivers, more headroom and louder volumes.
Godzilla
Indeed!
I consider supertweeters my friend. I also consider subwoofers my friend.
BIBs (pick a driver, any driver) make excellent main speakers with supertweeters and subwoofers playing small supporting roles. You dont even need them but they do round things out overall IMO.
Maybe not for the purist full-ranger but certainly a way to satisfy more of the masses with more drivers, more headroom and louder volumes.
Godzilla
That's what GM & Dave taught me, and they're right (not much of a surprise there then ). XOs are fine, so long as you keep them out of our most senstive hearing regions.
No free lunches in audio, but I reckon simple pipe-horns like the BIB are as close as most of us are ever likely to get, as their drawbacks are IMO massively outweighed by their sheer performance per £, which is frankly astonishing. Your brian tells you that something this cheap & simple has no right to sound as good as it does. But it's no trick: they do. That's why I've put so much into them over the past couple of years. I still love them, & have a new pair for 167s in the works for general listening duties.
). XOs are fine, so long as you keep them out of our most senstive hearing regions. No free lunches in audio, but I reckon simple pipe-horns like the BIB are as close as most of us are ever likely to get, as their drawbacks are IMO massively outweighed by their sheer performance per £, which is frankly astonishing. Your brian tells you that something this cheap & simple has no right to sound as good as it does. But it's no trick: they do.
That's why I've put so much into them over the past couple of years. I still love them, & have a new pair for 167s in the works for general listening duties.
Speaking about the drivers generally, The 167 doesn't have as much LF gain as the 165 & has less extension at the bottom end. It handles dynamic swings slightly more effectively though, & goes higher than the 165 does; treble is very sweet for a driver with a whizzer. The 165 scores over the 167 in the midrange -it doesn't have that silky feel the 165 does so well, but, especially with a set of phase plugs installed, it's no slouch at all. Both are lovely drivers -as you say, it's like comparing different wines. The 165 is like a good shiraz -lots of body & depth, & a rich, smooth character. The 167 you could compare to a younger, bolder merlot; slightly crisper & more sharply defined. Both can be savoured, in slightly different ways. The new boxes (once I've got them finished) will be set for driver-rolling. 
Scottmoose said:
Hah, exactly how I felt! it took me a while but I have overcome the dis-belief
Had a similar problem with the T-amps I have built from 41hz. With the 168 BIB my AMP11 is simply the best I have heard.
Years of conditioning that mega$ are required on all components even tho I did a lot of DIY in the past. I have had systems costing over 10 times my current, fully DIY built/modified, system and this one beats the rest with both hands tied behind its back. And I ain't finished moding yet!!
And as we are comparing with wines (and Shiraz being a favorite of mine) I would compare the 168 BIB to a Penfolds Grange Hermitage. As my friend said when I offered him some in a blind tasting - "Wow - thats a big big wine!"
ChrisMmm said:
Hah, exactly how I felt! it took me a while but I have overcome the dis-belief
Had a similar problem with the T-amps I have built from 41hz. With the 168 BIB my AMP11 is simply the best I have heard.
Years of conditioning that mega$ are required on all components even tho I did a lot of DIY in the past. I have had systems costing over 10 times my current, fully DIY built/modified, system and this one beats the rest with both hands tied behind its back. And I ain't finished moding yet!!
And as we are comparing with wines (and Shiraz being a favorite of mine) I would compare the 168 BIB to a Penfolds Grange Hermitage. As my friend said when I offered him some in a blind tasting - "Wow - thats a big big wine!"
I'm surprised that SY hasn't chimed in yet, what with all this wine-speak.
Hmmm, Bo$e is to audio as Mogan David is to wine?
Scottmoose said:I wouldn't. Because it'd depend on what sonic properties you value most, which you're willing to compromise on, the rest of your system & room, & what sort of music you primarily listen to.
In fact that's an interestion question I keep meaning to put to him -Greg; what would you do? Sorry it's been a while since I last emailed BTW -a million things on, & never enough hours in the day.
If that's a little over-dramatic for you, another good way is to buy Pink Floyd's Live in Pompii DVD & crank things up.
What you said.
During my active speaker building for barter 'career', I can't recall building a single floor standing speaker with just a small FR driver, they were always at least two way, with many being co-ax because most needed to be quick n' easy to build. The few pipe horns were with larger drivers and floor loaded, so no BIBs per se. Woofer + small 'FR' driver had the 'FR' in a separate well damped vented 'pocket' within the cab since this was a popular way to do it way back when, requiring only a cap to roll it off.
By far the most popular speaker was a two way tower (aka MLTL) with a hi-Q 12" used in Admiral consoles that finally wound down at near 12 kHz run full range with its companion ~1.2 kHz horn capped off with a 2.2 uF cap (~4.5 kHz/1st). Near simple n' cheap as dirt and partied till you dropped on as little as 8 W (apt. dwellers). The only downside was they were DOA by 40 Hz, but then most vinyl and all early tapes (8 track, etc..) were too, so not a big deal, though today they'd need a sub system.
Anyway, if I had to pick one it would either be a low tuned woofer/sub system with the 208 on a 300 Hz OB + WG loaded super tweeter or if space permits, then WG load the 208 also.
No need to be sorry, nobody knows better then me that we do what we can do when we can do it. At the rate I'm going I'll die wanting/needing to do more things than I did in my entire life.
I gotta get this DVD, my VHS tape is so worn out it's pixelated to the point where it's hard to watch, so you can imagine how degraded the audio is.
Yum. Driver rolling and beer. In England...
It is looking like I will [possibly] be in England toward the end of the year. Maybe some Shiraz and Merlot to go. With the Moroccan. Something about all that. Merlot, Moroccan, and Mancurians.
I too have been missing TC. His SEX-y amp in frilly hard Maple livery is sitting in the pole position these days, and I love the 6DN7 tube sound, these are TungSols, ..with the BIB in the living room.
I have also been playing with USB digital, a Scott Nixon CHIBI UFO, this with a JFET buffer, which made all the sense in the world, especially with our beloved but tweaky flea amps. Color me converted.
Hard disk streamed audio is to CD player, what SET is to bipolar transistor, AFAIAC... Nixon USB DAC + SEX amp + BIB = amazing. You could put together an amazing system for under a grand, which would lay waste to about everything else out there.
It is looking like I will [possibly] be in England toward the end of the year. Maybe some Shiraz and Merlot to go. With the Moroccan. Something about all that. Merlot, Moroccan, and Mancurians.
I too have been missing TC. His SEX-y amp in frilly hard Maple livery is sitting in the pole position these days, and I love the 6DN7 tube sound, these are TungSols, ..with the BIB in the living room.
I have also been playing with USB digital, a Scott Nixon CHIBI UFO, this with a JFET buffer, which made all the sense in the world, especially with our beloved but tweaky flea amps. Color me converted.
Hard disk streamed audio is to CD player, what SET is to bipolar transistor, AFAIAC...
Nixon USB DAC + SEX amp + BIB = amazing. You could put together an amazing system for under a grand, which would lay waste to about everything else out there.