Maybe you need a recap on what actually happened.
OP started this because he wasn't getting any useful output at 16 hz even when standing right beside the box at arm's length. 20 hz was kinda ok but there was not much of anything at 16 hz. THAT is the whole reason all of this started.
Part of the problem was the sealed box, part of the problem is the accumulated roll off of all the components in the signal chain.
If you recall, your advice was to completely ignore the signal chain roll off and add a leak and maybe some stuffing to his sealed box and add a Klipschorn to the system. This advice would have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to improve the 16 hz situation, although it would have improved the 40+ hz range, which was not a problem in the first place.
The DI box (not amp) that he "ripped apart" would have added another couple of db roll off at 16 hz. The isolation transformers that you recommend add another couple of db roll off at 16 hz. This all adds up. This means that if OP had followed ANY of your advice he would be worse off than he started.
This has nothing to do with "needlessly purist advice" or producing Diana Krall's voice in your music room. All the advice that was given (by most people except you) was to further the goal of improving the output at 16 hz in his system, and it clearly worked out really well.
OP is not playing back Widor's 5th Symphony, he is playing his own music and he wants the level at 16 hz to be strong enough to play well with the higher frequencies. Funny how much enthusiasm you hear for playing down to frequencies that hardly make a dent on that RTA. Are you seriously suggesting that OP forget about his original goal, the whole point of this long discusssion, after so much work and time and money was spent? At this point he's almost where he want to be despite your continual incredibly terrible advice, he's got the spl he wants and just wants to change the sound a bit.
I played for church yesterday. I selected music that had a mixture of prominent bass lines. And one that had a more austere bass line. We also sang some hymns that had a full organ accompaniment. I guess I was listening more to the pedal lines than usual because of my concern reflected in this thread.
Understanding the pedal division is a bit difficult for non-organists. But I'm going to try to explain it. Feel free to skip this if you like. It can get confusing.
Some organs have drawknobs to turn pipe ranks ON and OFF (real or digital). Others, like ours, use tabs. These are ON/OFF switches on an electrically controlled organ like ours. In the days before electricity was used, drawknobs were the norm. They were actually valves that controlled air. When this organ was installed in 1928, the town had no electricity. We have a 92 year old man who recalls being one of the boys who would go to the basement to pump the bellows that supplied air for the original pipe organ for church services. But our organ console was converted to an electric blower and a modern electronically controlled console many years ago. So our tabs are now simply electrical switches that turn on or off either the "real pipes" or the digital sounds.
Our pedal division has one 16 foot Diapason. Some call this a PRINCIPAL. This is usually a rank or stop that has a bigger sound that provides a strong bass foundation. On a real pipe organ, the lowest 16 foot pipe would actually be 16 feet long.
We also have a 16 foot Bourdon.This rank is typically not as strong as the Diapason.
There is 16 foot Reed - currently, it is a 16 foot Faggatto. This provides a bit of bite that cuts through. Reeds are typically more of a Sawtooth wave form.
Then we have one Alterable 32 foot stop, currently a 32 foot Contra Bourdon. We have several 32 ranks that can be assigned to this stop. I like this one best for being present without being overpowering. But we can program any of the 9 or 10 32 foot digital ranks we have to play when this stop is turned on.
These constitute the lowest sounds on our organ. All of these are digital voices. It's probable that most won't remember that this organ originally had only a 16 foot Bourdon set of pipes. We had to remove these to make a path for the speakers to be heard. 16 foot stops go down to 32 Hertz for the lowest note of the pedals (called Low C). The C an octave above that is 64 Hz. And another octave up is at 128 Hz. Most modern church organs have 32 pedals. Ours has only 30 since the original console was removed from a theater organ.
Our one 32 foot rank sounds an octave (12 notes) lower than the 16 foot ranks. The lowest note goes down to 16 Hertz. So the notes for this stop are the lowest on the organ. Low C is 16 Hz. The middle C is an octave above at 32 Hz. An octave above that is 64 Hz. There is approximately 2.66 Hz. difference between the notes in the lowest octave or the 32 foot rank. So Low C is 16 Hz. The next higher note is C# (C Sharp). It is 18.66 Hz. Add another 2.66 Hz and the next note is D. It sounds at roughly 21.32 Hz. And so on....
The other pedal stops are as follows:
8 foot Diapason - this ranks is real pipes on our organ.
8 foot Flute (a Bourdon and a flute are very similar sounding) - it is digital
4 foot Flute - digital
All the digital sounds listed above play through our homemade speakers and the single Allen HR100 speaker. The HR100 is on a separate amp. The amp crossover is set to 96 Hz. So most of the sounds the HR100 plays are at the upper end of the pedal board, or for the 4 foot flute. But many pedal ranks also produce partials and overtones. They are also produced by the HR100. All the remainder of low pedal sounds currently play through our two homemade boxes.
8 foots play an octave above the 16 foot ranks. 4 foot ranks play two octaves above the 16 foot ranks. 32 foot plays an octave below the 16 foot ranks.
Then there are four couplers for the pedals:
An 8 foot Swell to Pedal coupler
A 4 foot Swell to Pedal coupler
An 8 foot Great to Pedal coupler
A 4 foot Great tp Pedal coupler.
Couplers allow the pedals to play notes that are assigned to the manuals (the keyboards played with the hands). Our organ has two manuals. The upper one is called the Swell. The lower one is called the Great. Some organs have more manuals. We have only two.
Let's say I had an 8 foot Trumpet tab turned on for the Swell manual. Flipping the 8 foot Swell to Pedal coupler would allow the pedals to be used to play that trumpet. The lowest note on the pedals (low C) would be the lowest note of the Swell manual. If I changed that Trumpet to an Oboe rank, then the Oboe in the Swell would be played. Or I could have more than one rank of ranks programmed for the manuals. All would be played by the pedals.
The 4 foot Swell to Pedal would assign that same trumpet to be played with the pedals up one octave. Having both the 8 foot Swell to Pedal and the 4 foot Swell to Pedal turned on would play the Low C and the C an octave above at the same time.
The Great to Pedal couplers do the same thing for notes assigned to the Great manual.
Now, our organ currently has both pipes and digital sounds that are played from the two manuals. Our system allows both the pipes and the digital sounds to be coupled and played using the pedals. But the digital sounds coupled to the pedals do not play through the bass speakers. Instead, they are played through the speakers for that manual. So changing the volume or SPL of our homemade speakers or the Allen HR100 will have no effect on sounds run by the couplers.
Anyone who has made it this far probably has had their eyes glaze over. The organ can be a complex instrument to learn to control. But you can probably see that having both real pipes and digital sounds running at the same time creates what might be called a standard - or a norm.
I made it a goal from the beginning to try to blend the real pipes and the digital pipe sounds. I let the real pipes represent the benchmark point. These pipes cannot play any louder. So I've tried to adjust all the digital sounds to have the same volume or Sound Pressure Level as the real pipes. This is both a science AND an art. And I've been working on it for about five and half months. I've invited some of my organist friends to come in and help with this task. I anticipate that this process will continue for several more months.
As I've tried to "voice" this organ and blend all the sounds together, the low pedals have been a real challenge. We had a limited amount of money to spend. And the cost of converting our console to accept and control the digital system ate up $24,405 of our originally budgeted $30,000.
Frankly, 32 foot stops weren't even on my radar when I first started doing my research on this. But the more I considered it, the more I saw that it just might be possible AND that it might be desirable.
Armed with lots of advice from people in this forum and from people at the Organ Forum, I got lots of input. And some of the advice was conflicting. I tried to sift through it all and make choices
I quickly realized that getting solid bass - especially bass low enough to be able to produce 16 Hertz sounds was going to be very tough. I didn't have the budget for high dollar commercial subwoofers that could produce those lowest sounds with ease.
The homemade speakers were the best I could afford ; and they were a compromise.
In short, what we have works. And it doesn't sound terrible, or even bad. But it is still a compromise - especially the lowest frequencies.
I still don't have the money to buy high dollar subwoofers. But the Allen B-40 speakers were used for many years to play the pedal sounds on high dollar organs. I've bought one for right now. And I may be able to get another in the next few months. The footprint is such that I can just squeeze them into our pipe chamber.
So my goal is to experiment with one of them. I want to see if we can depend on the homemade boxes a little less and add this proven subwoofer to our pedal line mix. If this proves to be successful, I can buy another and add it to the mix.
Too, perhaps some DSP will allow tweaking the homemade boxes so they sound a bit better.
I'm very pleased with the outcome of this project in most respects. But I do hope I can improve the pedal sounds so they are as good as the sounds I'm getting from the manuals. They are close. But I think we can do it even better with some additions and tweaking.
Thus, I'm spending my own money to finance this. I'm a cheap SOB. So spending my own money shows how serious I am about this.
Thanks to one and all for your input, encouragement and patience. I'M POSITIVE THIS PROJECT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN NEARLY AS SUCCESSFUL WITHOUT IT!
Bach On
Understanding the pedal division is a bit difficult for non-organists. But I'm going to try to explain it. Feel free to skip this if you like. It can get confusing.
Some organs have drawknobs to turn pipe ranks ON and OFF (real or digital). Others, like ours, use tabs. These are ON/OFF switches on an electrically controlled organ like ours. In the days before electricity was used, drawknobs were the norm. They were actually valves that controlled air. When this organ was installed in 1928, the town had no electricity. We have a 92 year old man who recalls being one of the boys who would go to the basement to pump the bellows that supplied air for the original pipe organ for church services. But our organ console was converted to an electric blower and a modern electronically controlled console many years ago. So our tabs are now simply electrical switches that turn on or off either the "real pipes" or the digital sounds.
Our pedal division has one 16 foot Diapason. Some call this a PRINCIPAL. This is usually a rank or stop that has a bigger sound that provides a strong bass foundation. On a real pipe organ, the lowest 16 foot pipe would actually be 16 feet long.
We also have a 16 foot Bourdon.This rank is typically not as strong as the Diapason.
There is 16 foot Reed - currently, it is a 16 foot Faggatto. This provides a bit of bite that cuts through. Reeds are typically more of a Sawtooth wave form.
Then we have one Alterable 32 foot stop, currently a 32 foot Contra Bourdon. We have several 32 ranks that can be assigned to this stop. I like this one best for being present without being overpowering. But we can program any of the 9 or 10 32 foot digital ranks we have to play when this stop is turned on.
These constitute the lowest sounds on our organ. All of these are digital voices. It's probable that most won't remember that this organ originally had only a 16 foot Bourdon set of pipes. We had to remove these to make a path for the speakers to be heard. 16 foot stops go down to 32 Hertz for the lowest note of the pedals (called Low C). The C an octave above that is 64 Hz. And another octave up is at 128 Hz. Most modern church organs have 32 pedals. Ours has only 30 since the original console was removed from a theater organ.
Our one 32 foot rank sounds an octave (12 notes) lower than the 16 foot ranks. The lowest note goes down to 16 Hertz. So the notes for this stop are the lowest on the organ. Low C is 16 Hz. The middle C is an octave above at 32 Hz. An octave above that is 64 Hz. There is approximately 2.66 Hz. difference between the notes in the lowest octave or the 32 foot rank. So Low C is 16 Hz. The next higher note is C# (C Sharp). It is 18.66 Hz. Add another 2.66 Hz and the next note is D. It sounds at roughly 21.32 Hz. And so on....
The other pedal stops are as follows:
8 foot Diapason - this ranks is real pipes on our organ.
8 foot Flute (a Bourdon and a flute are very similar sounding) - it is digital
4 foot Flute - digital
All the digital sounds listed above play through our homemade speakers and the single Allen HR100 speaker. The HR100 is on a separate amp. The amp crossover is set to 96 Hz. So most of the sounds the HR100 plays are at the upper end of the pedal board, or for the 4 foot flute. But many pedal ranks also produce partials and overtones. They are also produced by the HR100. All the remainder of low pedal sounds currently play through our two homemade boxes.
8 foots play an octave above the 16 foot ranks. 4 foot ranks play two octaves above the 16 foot ranks. 32 foot plays an octave below the 16 foot ranks.
Then there are four couplers for the pedals:
An 8 foot Swell to Pedal coupler
A 4 foot Swell to Pedal coupler
An 8 foot Great to Pedal coupler
A 4 foot Great tp Pedal coupler.
Couplers allow the pedals to play notes that are assigned to the manuals (the keyboards played with the hands). Our organ has two manuals. The upper one is called the Swell. The lower one is called the Great. Some organs have more manuals. We have only two.
Let's say I had an 8 foot Trumpet tab turned on for the Swell manual. Flipping the 8 foot Swell to Pedal coupler would allow the pedals to be used to play that trumpet. The lowest note on the pedals (low C) would be the lowest note of the Swell manual. If I changed that Trumpet to an Oboe rank, then the Oboe in the Swell would be played. Or I could have more than one rank of ranks programmed for the manuals. All would be played by the pedals.
The 4 foot Swell to Pedal would assign that same trumpet to be played with the pedals up one octave. Having both the 8 foot Swell to Pedal and the 4 foot Swell to Pedal turned on would play the Low C and the C an octave above at the same time.
The Great to Pedal couplers do the same thing for notes assigned to the Great manual.
Now, our organ currently has both pipes and digital sounds that are played from the two manuals. Our system allows both the pipes and the digital sounds to be coupled and played using the pedals. But the digital sounds coupled to the pedals do not play through the bass speakers. Instead, they are played through the speakers for that manual. So changing the volume or SPL of our homemade speakers or the Allen HR100 will have no effect on sounds run by the couplers.
Anyone who has made it this far probably has had their eyes glaze over. The organ can be a complex instrument to learn to control. But you can probably see that having both real pipes and digital sounds running at the same time creates what might be called a standard - or a norm.
I made it a goal from the beginning to try to blend the real pipes and the digital pipe sounds. I let the real pipes represent the benchmark point. These pipes cannot play any louder. So I've tried to adjust all the digital sounds to have the same volume or Sound Pressure Level as the real pipes. This is both a science AND an art. And I've been working on it for about five and half months. I've invited some of my organist friends to come in and help with this task. I anticipate that this process will continue for several more months.
As I've tried to "voice" this organ and blend all the sounds together, the low pedals have been a real challenge. We had a limited amount of money to spend. And the cost of converting our console to accept and control the digital system ate up $24,405 of our originally budgeted $30,000.
Frankly, 32 foot stops weren't even on my radar when I first started doing my research on this. But the more I considered it, the more I saw that it just might be possible AND that it might be desirable.
Armed with lots of advice from people in this forum and from people at the Organ Forum, I got lots of input. And some of the advice was conflicting. I tried to sift through it all and make choices
I quickly realized that getting solid bass - especially bass low enough to be able to produce 16 Hertz sounds was going to be very tough. I didn't have the budget for high dollar commercial subwoofers that could produce those lowest sounds with ease.
The homemade speakers were the best I could afford ; and they were a compromise.
In short, what we have works. And it doesn't sound terrible, or even bad. But it is still a compromise - especially the lowest frequencies.
I still don't have the money to buy high dollar subwoofers. But the Allen B-40 speakers were used for many years to play the pedal sounds on high dollar organs. I've bought one for right now. And I may be able to get another in the next few months. The footprint is such that I can just squeeze them into our pipe chamber.
So my goal is to experiment with one of them. I want to see if we can depend on the homemade boxes a little less and add this proven subwoofer to our pedal line mix. If this proves to be successful, I can buy another and add it to the mix.
Too, perhaps some DSP will allow tweaking the homemade boxes so they sound a bit better.
I'm very pleased with the outcome of this project in most respects. But I do hope I can improve the pedal sounds so they are as good as the sounds I'm getting from the manuals. They are close. But I think we can do it even better with some additions and tweaking.
Thus, I'm spending my own money to finance this. I'm a cheap SOB. So spending my own money shows how serious I am about this.
Thanks to one and all for your input, encouragement and patience. I'M POSITIVE THIS PROJECT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN NEARLY AS SUCCESSFUL WITHOUT IT!
Bach On
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You will find that your "compromised" homemade speakers are going to mop the floor with the old commercial subwoofers, both in spl potential at low frequencies and in value.
At 16 hz it's all about driver excursion capability and resonant enclosure size. The more air the driver can move the better. The larger the enclosure the more acoustic gain. (And it has to be ported or resonant.) Add the two together and you get high spl potential.
The B-40 has a tired old driver with limited displacement capability. The cab isn't that large. This adds up to low spl potential. I'd love the driver and cab specs to simulate the potential.
Moving the system focus from your large 18 inch driver with huge displacement capability and large cab to the commercial cabs is going to be a step backward. If you left the current subs alone and just added the commercial sub, the new sub wouldn't bring much to the mix, it would be completely dominated and overshadowed by your current subs.
I'm sure the B-40 has a great reputation but if you bench test it compared to your 18 inch homemade sub head to head you are going to find that at 16 hz there really is no comparison at all, especially at their spl limits.
Thanks for taking time to help us understand your instrument. Around 1958, I bought an educational lesson recording from Aeolian-Skinner from what was then called "The Radio Shack of Boston" and still play pieces from it.
You are making a conceptual error. You are confusing the frequency conventionally assigned to musical notes with the stuff that your organ tone generator is putting out in its simulation of those pedals. I bet Allen knows perfectly well that nobody has a speaker is capable of more than barely audible sound at 16 Hz.
Please look at the output of your tone generator using the REW Real Time Analyzer function. SEE what is coming out of the tone generator. Betcha you'll be surprised what's there. You simply plug the output into your Audio Input on your laptop. Piece of cake.
Ben
You are making a conceptual error. You are confusing the frequency conventionally assigned to musical notes with the stuff that your organ tone generator is putting out in its simulation of those pedals. I bet Allen knows perfectly well that nobody has a speaker is capable of more than barely audible sound at 16 Hz.
Please look at the output of your tone generator using the REW Real Time Analyzer function. SEE what is coming out of the tone generator. Betcha you'll be surprised what's there. You simply plug the output into your Audio Input on your laptop. Piece of cake.
Ben
You don't know what the organ is putting out, this is a pretty bold assumption to make with no data since we know very well that it's SUPPOSED to be putting out 16 hz, which is the whole point of having that tone.
As far as what Allen knows about 16 hz capable subwoofers, they make at least one model (and probably several) that cover 16 hz. Here's an image that OP posted a long time ago showing the frequency response of (I think) the Allen SR-1.
From here - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/272833-16-hz-church-organ-102.html#post4395918
Why would Allen make a subwoofer that was capable of 16 hz if the rest of the signal chain that they make didn't put out 16 hz?
You really need to do at least a small amount of research before claiming other people are making conceptual errors. Especially since OP has stated that he didn't have acceptable 16 hz performance before but he does now, indicating that there is indeed 16 hz content in the organ output.
It has occurred to me that the Artisan low frequency samples may not be as good as those at higher frequencies, Ben. I don't know what mikes and process was used in sampling those low sounds. I'll try to do some measurements using REW.
And JAG - you may well be 100% correct in your prediction. I agree that the smaller cabinet of those B-40s doesn't seem to support getting high SPL at very low frequencies. The driver has a cloth surround accordion type fold that allows for some movement. Though that may not overcome the cabinet size problem. But I've played organs with these things. And they do a surprisingly good job. Frankly, that's why I bought only one.
And DSP and more watts may or may not help those homemade speakers. But I figure since I need another amp to accommodate the B-40, I'll tinker around and see what I can do to and for those big cabinets.
I freely admit that all my attempts in this effort are going to be an experiment. And it may turn out that what we currently have is simply the best I can hope for within my budget. If it turns out that way, then I'll at least be able to say I tried. And I've already said what we have isn't bad.
BO
And JAG - you may well be 100% correct in your prediction. I agree that the smaller cabinet of those B-40s doesn't seem to support getting high SPL at very low frequencies. The driver has a cloth surround accordion type fold that allows for some movement. Though that may not overcome the cabinet size problem. But I've played organs with these things. And they do a surprisingly good job. Frankly, that's why I bought only one.
And DSP and more watts may or may not help those homemade speakers. But I figure since I need another amp to accommodate the B-40, I'll tinker around and see what I can do to and for those big cabinets.
I freely admit that all my attempts in this effort are going to be an experiment. And it may turn out that what we currently have is simply the best I can hope for within my budget. If it turns out that way, then I'll at least be able to say I tried. And I've already said what we have isn't bad.
BO
JAG - the sound engine we bought is not an Allen Organ product. Ours is made by Artisan. And Artisan has not posted any graphs that I've seen for these low frequencies.
BO
BO
I was just saying that Allen wouldn't be making 16 hz capable subwoofers if their other products weren't putting out 16 hz. It wouldn't make any sense - you can get a lot more output with a higher tuning so there's a reason they make subwoofers that can play that low.
Here's a link to the SR-1 - Currently Allen wants $1,750 for one of these.
http://www.allenorgan.com/www/products/speakers/sr1subwoofers.htmlhttp://
Allen also offers a SR-5 - for around $1,150.
Allen Organ MIDI Products - Speakers
Those costs do not include shipping.
The exterior dimensions on the B-40 are 37" deep x 23" x 28". Approximate weight is 98 lbs. There is a single 15" woofer.
myorgan - Allen B-40 Speaker (Sub-Woofer) - The Organ Forum Gallery
I paid $330 - including shipping. These have been out of production for several years. I've never seen the kinds of measurements you'd need to do a simulation on this unit..
BO
http://www.allenorgan.com/www/products/speakers/sr1subwoofers.htmlhttp://
Allen also offers a SR-5 - for around $1,150.
Allen Organ MIDI Products - Speakers
Those costs do not include shipping.
The exterior dimensions on the B-40 are 37" deep x 23" x 28". Approximate weight is 98 lbs. There is a single 15" woofer.
myorgan - Allen B-40 Speaker (Sub-Woofer) - The Organ Forum Gallery
I paid $330 - including shipping. These have been out of production for several years. I've never seen the kinds of measurements you'd need to do a simulation on this unit..
BO
I agree with this statement. BUT I believe Ben was suggesting that I measure the output of the pedal signals of OUR sound engine - which is not made by Allen. It is made by Artisan. So whatever low sounds Allen organs produce doesn't seem to matter. That's all.
It's no big thing.
BO
I was suggesting that around the 12th Century, people just began to think it would be better to open a horse's mouth and count the teeth instead of having a logical debate about how many teeth a horse had.
Ben
The ears and body can be used as a measurement device. It's not a sophisticated device but when comparing single tones and tone strength it's plenty good enough to make subjective assessments.
I'm not sure how you don't understand this situation. OP must have noticed somthing missing from his musical experience so he played 16 hz tone and 20 hz tone through his existing subwoofer. The output was unacceptable at 16 hz and much stronger at 20 hz.
So he began a discussion and fixed the problem of inadequate output at 16 hz and now his musical experience is much more satisfying.
It would be nice to have some measurements but in this case we have to trust the OP's subjective assessment that there was a problem with 16 hz output and it is now fixed. Your constant insistence that his goals are invalid and the methods used to achieve them were unnecessary and inappropriate do not change the fact that subjectively OP is pleased with the results.
I would especially like to see impedance measurements and t/s specs for the B-40 woofer along with box and port dimensions but I know that isn't going to happen so there's no point in pushing it. Maybe it's time to take the hint that OP doesn't need to spend $100 on a mic to prove that he's subjectively satisfied, which is all that really matters.
I'm not sure how you don't understand this situation. OP must have noticed somthing missing from his musical experience so he played 16 hz tone and 20 hz tone through his existing subwoofer. The output was unacceptable at 16 hz and much stronger at 20 hz.
So he began a discussion and fixed the problem of inadequate output at 16 hz and now his musical experience is much more satisfying.
It would be nice to have some measurements but in this case we have to trust the OP's subjective assessment that there was a problem with 16 hz output and it is now fixed. Your constant insistence that his goals are invalid and the methods used to achieve them were unnecessary and inappropriate do not change the fact that subjectively OP is pleased with the results.
I would especially like to see impedance measurements and t/s specs for the B-40 woofer along with box and port dimensions but I know that isn't going to happen so there's no point in pushing it. Maybe it's time to take the hint that OP doesn't need to spend $100 on a mic to prove that he's subjectively satisfied, which is all that really matters.
Well I looked at the Sr-1 from Allen.
Your sub the 18 inch one is every bit as good, and most probably a little better at reproducing the ultra lows.
There's no replacement for displacement. And the driver you used has twice the usable displacement.
If you haven't forked out for it yet my advice is to keep your shekels and tweak what you have.
Now on another front.
As a youngin in Winnipeg Manitoba Canada I visited the Allen organ rep. We listened to a very convincing setup that had a few Hartley 24 inch drivers that were very capable of opening and closing the front door of the store.
That little trick caught my attention.
The store was about 18 feet wide and 40 feet deep. So the set up in that space was massive overkill. But interesting to me at any rate.
Ben did you listen to the youtube link?
Because some of them are damn good organ playing and recording.
It is all done on a Hauptwerk system. Completely electronic.
There are some pretty convincing organ pieces recorded on that Youtube channel.
Your sub the 18 inch one is every bit as good, and most probably a little better at reproducing the ultra lows.
There's no replacement for displacement. And the driver you used has twice the usable displacement.
If you haven't forked out for it yet my advice is to keep your shekels and tweak what you have.
Now on another front.
As a youngin in Winnipeg Manitoba Canada I visited the Allen organ rep. We listened to a very convincing setup that had a few Hartley 24 inch drivers that were very capable of opening and closing the front door of the store.
That little trick caught my attention.
The store was about 18 feet wide and 40 feet deep. So the set up in that space was massive overkill. But interesting to me at any rate.
Ben did you listen to the youtube link?
Because some of them are damn good organ playing and recording.
It is all done on a Hauptwerk system. Completely electronic.
There are some pretty convincing organ pieces recorded on that Youtube channel.
The SI 18 probably has closer to 4x more displacement capability than the SR-1 driver, maybe more. And the homemade cab is bigger. There really is no comparison, in a head to head shootout at max spl the homemade cab will eat the SR-1 for breakfast and still be hungry.
The SR-1 is like a rare breed puppy. It's kinda cute but very expensive, it has no bark, no bite and it definitely can't run with the big dogs.
From 2:30 to 2:35. That low peak is at 25 Hz, about 30 dB below the mid-frequency peaks.
Ben
Attachments
Good for you, you found a low amplitude tone that is neither a 16 hz or a 32 hz note.
I'm sure if you try a little harder you can find a much higher amplitude note that actually corresponds to an organ pipe frequency. If the low end is filtered down on that recording and you can't find one maybe you should measure an actual real organ (one that's set up to showcase the low notes properly), I'm sure you'll be able to measure a 16 hz note at a much higher level relative to the mid frequencies.
I'm sure if you try a little harder you can find a much higher amplitude note that actually corresponds to an organ pipe frequency. If the low end is filtered down on that recording and you can't find one maybe you should measure an actual real organ (one that's set up to showcase the low notes properly), I'm sure you'll be able to measure a 16 hz note at a much higher level relative to the mid frequencies.
Guys,
I was not considering buying the Allen SR-1, the SR-5 or any of the newer Allen speakers. They are IMHO way overpriced. I linked to them only to show what Allen is currently offering for their pedal line speakers. You guys may also recall that I had considered using passive radiators in one of our boxes. I became convinced that the ported design was better for our setup.
I'm glad you guys believe our current speaker boxes have the right stuff. I believe JAG was the one who suggested that SI HT18. Sadly, they no longer offer this driver. It was a good value.
But I have heard and played organs that used the older Allen B-40 speakers. It's possible that some electronic razzle dazzle was used on them, but they do put out some low sounds at volume. . I understand your bemusement at the prospect of seeing much from the B-40. And the shekels have already been sent.
I won't have any of the new stuff working for Easter, but I'll begin experimenting ASAP. I'm interested in seeing if DSP can or will improve the homemade boxes. And I'll report what happens - even if the results prove underwhelming. I've eaten crow before. It's OK with the right BBQ sauce.
Bach On
I was not considering buying the Allen SR-1, the SR-5 or any of the newer Allen speakers. They are IMHO way overpriced. I linked to them only to show what Allen is currently offering for their pedal line speakers. You guys may also recall that I had considered using passive radiators in one of our boxes. I became convinced that the ported design was better for our setup.
I'm glad you guys believe our current speaker boxes have the right stuff. I believe JAG was the one who suggested that SI HT18. Sadly, they no longer offer this driver. It was a good value.
But I have heard and played organs that used the older Allen B-40 speakers. It's possible that some electronic razzle dazzle was used on them, but they do put out some low sounds at volume. . I understand your bemusement at the prospect of seeing much from the B-40. And the shekels have already been sent.
I won't have any of the new stuff working for Easter, but I'll begin experimenting ASAP. I'm interested in seeing if DSP can or will improve the homemade boxes. And I'll report what happens - even if the results prove underwhelming. I've eaten crow before. It's OK with the right BBQ sauce.
Bach On
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