CORRECTION ON THE PREVIOUS POST
I just went back and re-read the information on the ART box. It DOES require a capacitor modification to get the response down to 10 Hz.
There are, however, fewer caps to change out.
DRAT!!!
Bach On
You could put the Rolls into an international flat rate USPS box and ship it to someone who can get it running.
I just ordered a different one that requires no conversion.
I'll tinker with the Rolls later. I'm not giving up on it yet. I just need what it does corrected sooner.
But if I'm reading between the lines correctly - thanks.
BO
I bought a Samson S-Convert. Can't get them here in the States anymore. Found one up your way.
I'll tinker with the Rolls later. I'm not giving up on it yet. I just need what it does corrected sooner.
But if I'm reading between the lines correctly - thanks.
BO
I bought a Samson S-Convert. Can't get them here in the States anymore. Found one up your way.
OK, guys. For good or for ill, I made an Executive decision.
Bought the following items:
1. Samson S-Convert - it changes unbalanced inputs to balanced. It has a frequency response that extends down to 10 Hz. They are no longer being sold in the US. I bought one from Canada. - $89.99 including shipping. This will increase the signal strength of the Artisan output to the Amp.
2. Bought a Behringer i-Nuke 3000DSP - it allows DSP tailoring for the low bass. I've read that it has a switch to disable the low frequency cutoff. If that proves incorrect, I'll decide what to do. $279 from Sweetwater, with free shipping and 2 year warranty.
After having ordered the Allen B-40 bass speaker, I'll need another amp for it. I'll use the Crown XLS1500 we have for it. The B-40 is an 8 ohm speaker. The XLS1500 can put out 300 watts at 8 ohms. That should be ample power for the B-40.
The i-Nuke 3000DSP will be used for the homemade speakers. The 3000DSP can provide up to 880 watts per channel at 4 ohms. Each of the homemade boxes have been wired for 4 ohms,.
Another Crown XLS1002 would have cost $299. The Crown XLS1502 now costs $399. The i-Nuke 3000DSP has more features, power and DSP. And the DSP software allows tailoring the signal for each individual channel using a computer interface.
My plan is to put the Samson S-Convert between the Artisan and both the amps. It will require only a splitter cable. That should improve the original signal strength going to the amps.
The Dual Dayton box will be plugged into the Left Channel of the i-Nuke. The DSP can be adjusted for that box.
The Stereo Integrity HT18 box will be plugged into the Right channel of the i-Nuke. The DSP can then be tailored for that box.
My goal is not to make the low pedal sounds louder. I want them to sound a little better.
This is my money. And a fool and his money are soon parted.
Thanks for the input. I'm hopeful that this will improve the sound of our pedal line.
Bach On
Bought the following items:
1. Samson S-Convert - it changes unbalanced inputs to balanced. It has a frequency response that extends down to 10 Hz. They are no longer being sold in the US. I bought one from Canada. - $89.99 including shipping. This will increase the signal strength of the Artisan output to the Amp.
2. Bought a Behringer i-Nuke 3000DSP - it allows DSP tailoring for the low bass. I've read that it has a switch to disable the low frequency cutoff. If that proves incorrect, I'll decide what to do. $279 from Sweetwater, with free shipping and 2 year warranty.
After having ordered the Allen B-40 bass speaker, I'll need another amp for it. I'll use the Crown XLS1500 we have for it. The B-40 is an 8 ohm speaker. The XLS1500 can put out 300 watts at 8 ohms. That should be ample power for the B-40.
The i-Nuke 3000DSP will be used for the homemade speakers. The 3000DSP can provide up to 880 watts per channel at 4 ohms. Each of the homemade boxes have been wired for 4 ohms,.
Another Crown XLS1002 would have cost $299. The Crown XLS1502 now costs $399. The i-Nuke 3000DSP has more features, power and DSP. And the DSP software allows tailoring the signal for each individual channel using a computer interface.
My plan is to put the Samson S-Convert between the Artisan and both the amps. It will require only a splitter cable. That should improve the original signal strength going to the amps.
The Dual Dayton box will be plugged into the Left Channel of the i-Nuke. The DSP can be adjusted for that box.
The Stereo Integrity HT18 box will be plugged into the Right channel of the i-Nuke. The DSP can then be tailored for that box.
My goal is not to make the low pedal sounds louder. I want them to sound a little better.
This is my money. And a fool and his money are soon parted.
Thanks for the input. I'm hopeful that this will improve the sound of our pedal line.
Bach On
Adding DSP will be great. No modern system should be without a DCX2496.
I'd also buy a few of audio isolator transformers. With your complex system, you'll be getting infected with mysterious hums and buzzes soon. Otherwise, just like the blower in a pipe organ, when you turn it on the whole crowd knows it.
I recently paid abut $7 a piece for Pyramid NS-21, stereo units. Works as advertised and down just a few dB at 10 Hz (because I measured it, of course). OK, distortion creeps up at lowest frequencies, but not so you'd notice.
I've never fussed about balanced lines - except when I did some recording next door to the Toronto CBC antenna years ago and also had very long mic cables.
Ben
I'd also buy a few of audio isolator transformers. With your complex system, you'll be getting infected with mysterious hums and buzzes soon. Otherwise, just like the blower in a pipe organ, when you turn it on the whole crowd knows it.
I recently paid abut $7 a piece for Pyramid NS-21, stereo units. Works as advertised and down just a few dB at 10 Hz (because I measured it, of course). OK, distortion creeps up at lowest frequencies, but not so you'd notice.
I've never fussed about balanced lines - except when I did some recording next door to the Toronto CBC antenna years ago and also had very long mic cables.
Ben
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Ben,
I went ahead and ordered one of the Pyramid NS-21 units. I figure it will come in handy - if not for this project, then for others.
Keep your fingers crossed!!!
Bach On
I went ahead and ordered one of the Pyramid NS-21 units. I figure it will come in handy - if not for this project, then for others.
Keep your fingers crossed!!!
Bach On
With your ear to a speaker, you'll aways hear a buzz or hum (this is a test of your hearing and your room S/N). If too loud for your taste, just pick some link in the chain (esp. higher upstream) and insert the transformer; or move to another link if that didn't help. Garbage can show up between any and all the links and each baddy you've got (or maybe you have none at all) needs treatment. Too many transformers in the chain, of course, and this kind of treatment is worse than the disease and different approaches (on the power supply side) to ground looping issues needs to be attempted.
Conveniently constructed as a male-female pair of connectors (like a "union" connector) to slip right into an RCA connection. The box has two independent transformers.
The fancy crowd pay like $150 for these kinds of external boxed transformers. Of twice that for trick cables whose validity of claims resemble those of some political candidates. Not much better, I'd guess.
Ben
Conveniently constructed as a male-female pair of connectors (like a "union" connector) to slip right into an RCA connection. The box has two independent transformers.
The fancy crowd pay like $150 for these kinds of external boxed transformers. Of twice that for trick cables whose validity of claims resemble those of some political candidates. Not much better, I'd guess.
Ben
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Seeing that this is a back to back transformer isolation setup it makes me wonder what the frequency response of this transformer set is?
Mark -
Are you brazenly suggesting that at us$3.50* per transformer (and including a plastic box and RCA cables at both ends and a pretty gold-coloured label), this car audio device is anything but the highest audiophile quality?
Now I would never deny a fellow a right to express reservations about economical gear on this honourable forum. It is your right after all.**
Ben
*Granted, that's thousands of Canadian pesos
**as best as I can eyeball my REW runs from a few weeks ago, BOTH left and right TOGETHER are within an envelop plus or minus 1.5 dB, 20-25kHz. I can't say what other shortcomings are present but greatly helped my vacation-condo music system without introducing detectable problems. No disrespect to synthetic organs, but they don't intend to deliver clean pure tones or familiar instrument timbre.
@ Bach On
You might not need the ART etc, now you have the Samson S-Convert. I got the PDF for it, & the FR doesn't list the +- db numbers ! So it's just a f range listing, but i expect it "might" be ok without tinkering.
Re Transformers.
If you don't have any hum issues, you shouldn't need them. Even if you have, or do get hum, i can guide you as to how to best eliminate it by correct Earthing of ALL the gear. Let me know if you need help. Plus, TFR's are VERY bad @ low f's, unless you pay a fortune. The f's roll off & they distort too ! I would avoid them.
You might not need the ART etc, now you have the Samson S-Convert. I got the PDF for it, & the FR doesn't list the +- db numbers ! So it's just a f range listing, but i expect it "might" be ok without tinkering.
Re Transformers.
If you don't have any hum issues, you shouldn't need them. Even if you have, or do get hum, i can guide you as to how to best eliminate it by correct Earthing of ALL the gear. Let me know if you need help. Plus, TFR's are VERY bad @ low f's, unless you pay a fortune. The f's roll off & they distort too ! I would avoid them.
In a system as complex as that organ, isolating power supplies and playing cops-and-robbers with the electric mains can be a slow path to lunacy.
I suppose Zero posted before reading my plus and minus 1.5 dB footnote. Or just didn't believe me or trust REW. So here it is again, but in pictures this time. The bars are a mere 5 dB apart. BOTH transformers shown to demonstrate their comparability.
Ben
Attachments
Here are the specs for the Samson S-Convert
Noise Level- 110 dBu
Maximum Ouput Level Bal: +18 dBu Unbal: +16 dBV
Max Input Level Bal: +22 dBu Unbal: 20 dBV
Input Impedance RCA: 100k Ohm XLR: 10k Ohm
Output Impedance RCA: 100 Ohm XLR: 100 Ohm balanced
Maximum Gain +4 dBu In: -6 dB -10 dBV In; +19 dB
THD .003% Max
Noise Floor <-90 dBu
Power 18 VDC adapter
Dimensions 5.65” L x 4.13” W x 2” H (144mm L x 105mm W x 51mm H)
Weight 16.5 oz., 419 gm.
For some reason, Samson does not offer this unit for sale in all countries. It used to be available in the USA. No longer. I got the last one from a company in Canada.
I will also have the ART unit - just in case. But this would need some capacitors changed to handle frequencies below 20 Hz.
BO
Noise Level- 110 dBu
Maximum Ouput Level Bal: +18 dBu Unbal: +16 dBV
Max Input Level Bal: +22 dBu Unbal: 20 dBV
Input Impedance RCA: 100k Ohm XLR: 10k Ohm
Output Impedance RCA: 100 Ohm XLR: 100 Ohm balanced
Maximum Gain +4 dBu In: -6 dB -10 dBV In; +19 dB
THD .003% Max
Noise Floor <-90 dBu
Power 18 VDC adapter
Dimensions 5.65” L x 4.13” W x 2” H (144mm L x 105mm W x 51mm H)
Weight 16.5 oz., 419 gm.
For some reason, Samson does not offer this unit for sale in all countries. It used to be available in the USA. No longer. I got the last one from a company in Canada.
I will also have the ART unit - just in case. But this would need some capacitors changed to handle frequencies below 20 Hz.
BO
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@ bentoronto
It seemed like you were talking about REW's capabilities ! So, you meant the TFR's. Well, the response you show of them isn't +- 1.5db, but around - 2.5db @ 16Hz !
I wouldn't use them for this project, but for regular use they appear very good value. I couldn't find any actual manufactures www real specs for distortion, or anything else ?
@ Bach On
Yeah, i already got the specs from the PDF i downloaded. Looks good 🙂
It seemed like you were talking about REW's capabilities ! So, you meant the TFR's. Well, the response you show of them isn't +- 1.5db, but around - 2.5db @ 16Hz !
I wouldn't use them for this project, but for regular use they appear very good value. I couldn't find any actual manufactures www real specs for distortion, or anything else ?
@ Bach On
Yeah, i already got the specs from the PDF i downloaded. Looks good 🙂
Attachments
There are very high quality isolation transformers for line level use. Lundahl in Europe and Jensen in the USA.
Problem solvers ⋆ Lundahl Transformers
Pro Audio | Jensen Transformers
And there are others as well.
Not crazy prices.
Well, I always like the opportunity to discuss how to measure things.
What i said was, the two transformers - not just individually but even matched together - are within plus or minus 1.5 dB 20-25kHz. And that's just what my chart shows. Yes, there's a tiny and totally imperceptible drop further below 20 Hz; but until I see Bach On's measurements, I'm skeptical there's real electrical content below 25 Hz or that he has speakers than play anything hearable that low.*
What you don't seem to remember is that measurements (mine and most everybody else's) are passing through the 50-cent DAC inside my MacBook laptop and ALSO back through my bargain-from-Hong-Kong Behringer ADC as well as the little isolation transformers you seem to disparage so much. All of them together are as flat as anybody could possibly want.
These two threads have been chock full of ill-considered needlessly purist advice for Bach On. And that includes some seriously deranged advice about ripping apart a perfectly good amp. An electric organ is a musical instrument and the standards you'd apply to reproducing Gill Shahan's violin or Diana Krall's voice in your music room may often be inapt here.
Ben
*Just coincidentally, this morning I was eyeballing the REW Real Time Analysis of an organ recording in the world's largest stone-gothic church - Widor's 5th Sym, Finale (if I remember). Bach On will verify there's hardly a better test piece. Funny how much enthusiasm you hear for playing down to frequencies that hardly make a dent on that RTA.
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@ mwmkravchenko
Hi, yes i'm aware of them, but nice links for everyone 🙂 I would trust those manufactures, as they provide Real data ! As Bach On wants to do this right i felt i should raise a concern 😉
Hi, yes i'm aware of them, but nice links for everyone 🙂 I would trust those manufactures, as they provide Real data ! As Bach On wants to do this right i felt i should raise a concern 😉
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCenMC2oK7mEACtCpHP3M3lA
Hi Ben. Explore this for a bit and tell me what you think about the sound.
Hi Ben. Explore this for a bit and tell me what you think about the sound.
The saving grace is that if I remember correctly he is migrating toward an amplifier with DSP.
That can easily be used for a bit of correction on the low end.
That can easily be used for a bit of correction on the low end.
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