When the project is done I will release a drawing package with approval from Weltersys
All box and horn parts cnc cut. I'm doing it properly with 12mm BB/BB grade baltic birch. Hoping to get them assembled and start filling and smoothing horn entry next week.
Hello to everyone who spent time on this project. I'd like to thank you all in advance, Fin, Jenny, MrSpeaker, Pyronious, and specially Art.
I'm feeling like I discovered the Holy Grail of sound systems and a sanctuary of smart and good people.
So, I'm thinking about starting building my own SynTripP speaker... I read the hole trend and I was wondering, after all this time solving issues and finally getting good CADs, can anyone of you point a good starting point or a general guide for a total noob like me? I mean, should I just start on following the old #61 parts list? Or you think there is a better (less prone to stupid mistakes) way to do it?
And after all, you think the expensive Eminence N314X CD is worth it? I feel like I could get 90% of the result with way cheaper drivers.
One more question: i'm planning on using it with Keystones on a mobile set up, running all with 12V (probably class D) amps and a cheap car oriented DSP. Do you think I would be losing too much quality/performance? People used to say class D car amps were bad at high frequencies...
I'm feeling like I discovered the Holy Grail of sound systems and a sanctuary of smart and good people.
So, I'm thinking about starting building my own SynTripP speaker... I read the hole trend and I was wondering, after all this time solving issues and finally getting good CADs, can anyone of you point a good starting point or a general guide for a total noob like me? I mean, should I just start on following the old #61 parts list? Or you think there is a better (less prone to stupid mistakes) way to do it?
And after all, you think the expensive Eminence N314X CD is worth it? I feel like I could get 90% of the result with way cheaper drivers.
One more question: i'm planning on using it with Keystones on a mobile set up, running all with 12V (probably class D) amps and a cheap car oriented DSP. Do you think I would be losing too much quality/performance? People used to say class D car amps were bad at high frequencies...
Can only tell you that I'm absolutely satisfied with my DE90TN 8 HF drivers, although there's quite some spreading in the series and i got two quite different ones.
Here is the group delay of one of my Syntripps which looks great. To the time of measurements, there was no damping material in them. Now it put some Basotect foam into them and the standing waves at ~400 and ~700 Hz should be gone by now.
Also using .5ms delay for the HF driver, seems to be good.
Just thinking of the right subs for those nice tops, im right now into the th18 xoc1 but still looking for something smaller and lighter but anything else does not go deep enough and... I just love the "dry" bass of TH woofers.
Here is the group delay of one of my Syntripps which looks great. To the time of measurements, there was no damping material in them. Now it put some Basotect foam into them and the standing waves at ~400 and ~700 Hz should be gone by now.
Also using .5ms delay for the HF driver, seems to be good.
Just thinking of the right subs for those nice tops, im right now into the th18 xoc1 but still looking for something smaller and lighter but anything else does not go deep enough and... I just love the "dry" bass of TH woofers.
Attachments
What's your experience with building things, CAD and CAM like?
I have a degree as a mechanical engineering tech and did Tool & Die machining for a while, so once I started modeling it out from the great work done by the community, designed my angle jigs and did the CAM work, the rest has been relatively trivial so far. Everything is going together basically like puzzle pieces. First time building speakers, but certainly not my first time building things. YMMV. I don't want to discourage folks but this is not a project for the faint of heart or a first time builder.
I just picked two EV DML2181 up to go with my SyntripPs. Cheap, available and give me enough output for the intended use, which is monitor use at our big shows, and a small rental rig for 100-200 person parties. If I was building subs (and will be), I'd look into Scott Hinson (of DIYRM fame) Neman Horn. Working on a drawing release for those atm. Check back with me mid to late February.
Henrique,
As a general guide, building the SynTripP is not a good starting project for a total noob. That said, if you can follow the directions in post #61 and the others listed in the OP, go ahead!
The Eminence N314X CD low end potential compared to the cheaper N314T looks promising, but having not tested it, can't say whether it's additional TexTreme diaphragm expense is "worth it".
If you are looking for maximum efficiency, rather than sound quality, there are better options than the SynTripP/Keystone.
If you are planning to run Keystone subs and SynTripP tops from a 12volt battery bank, I'd suggest using normal AC amplification and processing and use 12v to AC inversion, rather than 12v amps and a cheap car oriented DSP.
Cheers,
Art
Interesting, the Neman dual 18" FLH is almost exactly double the volume of the single 18" Keystone sub.
They both have very similar frequency response, a pair of BC 18SW115 loaded Keystones would have similar output level to the Neman.
I'd think with your choice of such a petite top cabinet, you'd choose a more "bite-size" sub build, what attracts you to a 4 x 4 x 2 foot cabinet?
Art
Thank you so much for your answers.
ab01ns, I made two ported speakers, one of them was actually a 4th order sub, but the design was very simple, never really needed to rely on my CAD work. And sorry, I’m not sure about what CAM means (english is not my first language, but I suspect this is more of a technical knowledge flaw), but if the M stands for manufacture, I have never worked with it.
I will consider the normal AC and processing, thanks for the tip, Art.
If I end up successfully building the box, I’ll probably consider testing the N314X and sharing the files here.
About my goals, I’m actually looking for the best quality at a reasonable price. I just wanna listen to a synergy/unity box for the first time and be able to show it to my geek friends.
Here in Brazil, this kind of knowledge around speakers is rare, good audio is rarer and budget is generally incredibly tight. Thats why I’ll probably use brazilian 10” drivers with close enough parameters. Wood and national amps are cheap(ish) here, however.
It is a privilege to be able to talk with the creator of these fairly famous speakers. Thanks again.
ab01ns, I made two ported speakers, one of them was actually a 4th order sub, but the design was very simple, never really needed to rely on my CAD work. And sorry, I’m not sure about what CAM means (english is not my first language, but I suspect this is more of a technical knowledge flaw), but if the M stands for manufacture, I have never worked with it.
I will consider the normal AC and processing, thanks for the tip, Art.
If I end up successfully building the box, I’ll probably consider testing the N314X and sharing the files here.
About my goals, I’m actually looking for the best quality at a reasonable price. I just wanna listen to a synergy/unity box for the first time and be able to show it to my geek friends.
Here in Brazil, this kind of knowledge around speakers is rare, good audio is rarer and budget is generally incredibly tight. Thats why I’ll probably use brazilian 10” drivers with close enough parameters. Wood and national amps are cheap(ish) here, however.
It is a privilege to be able to talk with the creator of these fairly famous speakers. Thanks again.
Three reasons. 1 a friend is building 4 nemans first, and we want to be able to integrate our rigs together perfectly. As the neman is a big old bandpass box, the more we stack together the better the overall extension and spl. 8 together and possibly some mouth extensions that are in the works will be pretty insane.
2: the SyntripP won't go with my nemans. My big rig will be 2-4 nemans with 2 PM90s. Potentially happening this summer? Funding depending. My syntripP/dml2181 setup will be used for booth monitors and smaller gigs. What can I say, our djs, myself included will be spoiled for sound quality and SPL
3: driver pricing. I can load the nemans with 18TBX100s, which perform, atleast in sims, like the SB audience drivers Scott uses for a fraction of the price of 18SW115s that you spec for the Keystones. Heavier sure, but recones are less expensive and initial cost is less.
Given I have no cost access to a CNC router, for me the biggest cost by far is drivers.
So to me, going to big bandpass boxes with cheaper woofers is a no brainer.
Thanks again for your input and obviously your incredible work on the syntripP. Everyone who's heard the one prototype so far is absolutely floored with it.
I would expect maximum output to be less for a box using the 18tbx compared to the 18sw due to the reduced excursion capabilities. Worth checking how much this is and if the reduction in cost is worth it for you.
I know someone has to have asked this already but what would be the best driver/speaker option for the most spl? I'm planning on using a pair of SyntripP with 4 keystone subs and I'm hoping to be able to still do heavy metal concerts at large clubs if possible.
Not just going for maximum volume at all costs, but looking to get the most possible out of the enclosures. thinking Eminence N314X drivers, but wanting the most out of the 2-10" possible.
"Hoping" won't make two 10" drivers in a tiny BR/conical horn cabinet reach the level of an 8x12" Marshall stack ;^).
Since the acoustic crossover has to be around 800Hz, using higher power/excursion 10" would make the 3" diaphragm compression driver "run out of steam" before the 10".
If you want heavy metal concert levels above 80-100 Hz, look at larger designs, Peter Morris has quite a few:
https://soundforums.net/community/threads/pma-60-new-arrayable-double-12-and-horn.211973/
https://soundforums.net/community/threads/new-diy-mid-high-90deg-aka-pm90.11601/
https://soundforums.net/community/threads/60-degree-diy-mid-hi-aka-pm60.12390/
Cheers,
Art
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thanks Art. I've looked at those designs and although using 4 of the PMA-60's would probably do the trick, it would be pretty costly.
I currently own 4-Renkus Heinz 2-15" plus horn cabinets that easily handle larger clubs, but they weigh a ton. I'm trying to get away from the weight.
I also own 6 TCS 2-10" MTM cabinets that sound pretty good for small clubs, but they don't sit high enough on the keystone subs to be at the right height. I guess I could just build a box to sit them on.
I thought the SyntripP's would be a great matchup with the keystones for most small to medium clubs. the idea was to sell the TCS speakers to finance the SyntripP build. Was just hoping I could use the SyntripP's and get rid of the Renkus cabinets.
Amateur question, but what effect would stacking two SyntripP's have?
I currently own 4-Renkus Heinz 2-15" plus horn cabinets that easily handle larger clubs, but they weigh a ton. I'm trying to get away from the weight.
I also own 6 TCS 2-10" MTM cabinets that sound pretty good for small clubs, but they don't sit high enough on the keystone subs to be at the right height. I guess I could just build a box to sit them on.
I thought the SyntripP's would be a great matchup with the keystones for most small to medium clubs. the idea was to sell the TCS speakers to finance the SyntripP build. Was just hoping I could use the SyntripP's and get rid of the Renkus cabinets.
Amateur question, but what effect would stacking two SyntripP's have?
Vertically stacking a pair could gain around 6dB over one, overall reduce vertical dispersion, and introduce comb filtering peaks and dips in the vertical response.
Even with a modified secondary horn to couple both cabinets, a pair of vertically stacked SynTripP probably would have similar output 100-800 Hz as one of RH 2x15", though will sound far more coherent than side by side front loaded dual 15"/HF horn cabinets.
If you plan to make a vertical MEH array, using narrow vertical dispersion throat adapters like the DSL Paraline, B&C ME 142 or Eminence LA-WG14 you inquired about in the PA forum would be a much better choice than stacking cabinets designed for 40 degree vertical dispersion.
Any of those throat adapters also provide additional LF loading lacking in a conical horn, so you could use higher power 10", and scale vertically for more SPL as required, while still keeping individual box weight to around 50 pounds.
Art
I've seen those waveguides but haven't seen anyone use them, so I wasn't sure about them.
Is this the only thing it does? Would the cone filler also help attenuate or push up (in frequency) the phase cancellation across the cone?
@weltersys I've been studying this whole project to execute in the best way possible and today i've got one doubt, will be thankful if you could help me.
See, the exterior line of channel routing for the speaker, in your photo, looks like its matching with the line of the half inch hole of the port holes.
This photo show us:
Fin and Jenny Girl have been executed your project and i cleary understand that some little differences may have taken place, the channel routing of their project looks like a bit behind the half inch hole.
But the question is: will that make significant differences? Is there an measuremente to where the speaker should be? In my head i'll be using the line of the half inch hole to put the exterior line of the channel routing, is that ok?
Thanks Art!
See, the exterior line of channel routing for the speaker, in your photo, looks like its matching with the line of the half inch hole of the port holes.
This photo show us:
Fin and Jenny Girl have been executed your project and i cleary understand that some little differences may have taken place, the channel routing of their project looks like a bit behind the half inch hole.
But the question is: will that make significant differences? Is there an measuremente to where the speaker should be? In my head i'll be using the line of the half inch hole to put the exterior line of the channel routing, is that ok?
Thanks Art!