DIY_Peter said:
I understand the language just fine and I have no problem comparing them. The publically funded broadcasters in the Netherlands are very much like PBS in the US. In fact, some of the reports you see on Dutch television are actually produced by PBS for its own show Frontline. Ever seen it? Do you know who Charlie Rose is? Bill Moyers? Jim Lehrer? No? Strange, I guess a couple of nights in a hotel in the US *doesn't* actually teach you everything there is to know about this country.
And besides, while I agree that VPRO is pretty good, it's just a small part of what's on TV over there. All the "quality" senders are on just three channels, they're not strictly dependent on attracting viewers to raise advertising revenue, and they don't even broadcast 24 hours a day. The bulk of what people actually watch is on the commercial broadcasters, which churn out a steady diet of creepy softcore porn and rehashed reality programming. I'd put that crap up against any of the commercial stations in the US anyday.
Hmm, I take that back about the VPRO being pretty good. This story is just bizarre, at least to someone who's actually in the US now. For the non-Dutch speaking, the first paragraph is, more or less:
Since the attacks of September 11 patriotism has ruled in the US. So strongly does the government hold to its own position on good and evil that other opinions are no longer tolerated. Freedom of expression, established in the constitution of the fifty states, is officially still one of the pillars of the United States.
But meanwhile there is a blacklist of journalists and professors who have been critical of Bush's politics.
The list was drawn up by Lynne Cheney, wife of the vice president, as far as I can tell sometime in 2002. It
goes on to quote some people who are annoyed or puzzled to find out their names are on the list, and it ends with:
Whether people experience difficulties from having a place on the list is not known.
Hmm, indeed. So, what evidence is there to suggest that anyone is, or was (this is an old story), or ought to be, afraid to express opinions critical of the government? Sure, I guess you run the risk of no longer being Lynne Cheney's friend...
Rob M said:
First of all, I'm from belgium, so I was primarily talking about our tv. And I can tell you that I have never seen a critical show or documentary that was produced in the US. Most of what we see here about the war comes from Belgium, the UK and France.
I do agree that vpro is just a small part of what's on tv. But non-commercial mainstream tv in Belgium is very critical about what's going on in the world. And that is the main point. Mainstream TV in the US isn't. I don't care if you have 3000 channels. Most of them are not showing what they should be showing.
Maybe you have a wide choice in channels if you live in LA or some other large city. But the places I visited (texas, arizona, utah, wyoming, idaho, new mexico) shure don't have that much choice. Unless they have cable maybe, but I don't think people in rural areas do.
The amount of channels is also not important. We have about 40 channels here, and most of it is crap. Just like in the US.
And about that Lynne cheney list. That woman said that several Proffesors got suspendend.
The bottom line is that expressing "un-american" views gets you into trouble. Most americans don't like that behaviour, so those guys wont like you. This can have a big effect on your life. Missing job opportunities, Being considered a wackko by your neighbours... Those are not big things on a global scale, but they do mean a lot to the person who experiences them.
If I was your neighbour, you probably wouldn't like me, because I had some views that are very different from yours. Those things are normal.
fedde said:
In my view you are. But someone like RobM probably thinks you and me are bashing americans. We would be on the black list. If were important, ofcourse 🙂 Maybe you are, I'm not.
DIY_Peter said:
VPRO is Dutch.
Amazing. Read that back to yourself. And again. Does it still make sense? You're saying that on the basis of seeing Belgian, British, French, and (I'll assume) Dutch programming, you judge American programming to be inadequate.
You know, I've never seen a Belgian report that critically addresses the role ordinary citizens there may have played in the Holocaust. Hmm, must be because they don't exist, right?
You think wrong.
This just isn't true. It's not. Really. Honest. It's not. I know your TV tells you it is, and it's painful to think your TV might be lying to it you, but it's just not true.
You really don't get it. It's not criticism of the US that I object to. There's plenty to critcize, especially with the current administration. What I object to is the arrogance you show in thinking you can tell me what most Americans are like. You know nothing about America or Americans, and everything you say just demonstrates that. There's no shame in that -- after all, why should you know very much about the US? And your media gives you a carefully constructed view of what they want you to think America is like, which bears very little resemblence to the real thing. What, you think media bias is purely an American phenomenon? Don't just believe what they tell you, try some critical thought!
I spent several hours on a train platform in Brussels, and changed planes at the airport there several times. So, proportionally, I have about as much experience with your country than you do with mine. Does that qualify me to lecture you on what's wrong with Belgians? (By the way, you guys litter way too much. Do you always expect someone to clean up your messes for you? And Sabena, man, what a sorry excuse for an airline.)
My own opinion is that Bush is the worst president we've had in a very, very long time, and if he gets re-elected it will be a catastrophe. Lots of people agree with me. In fact, there are a couple of political parties (with many millions of members) and a dozen or so candidates whose primary goal is replacing Bush. And I can assure you, none of us have been arrested, assassinated, harrassed, fired, or beaten, and none of our meetings have been busted up by gangs of brown-shirted thugs.
Rob M said:
Thanks, I didn't know that 🙂
Well, well. and I thought you were a doctor...
I never said I based my view of american tv on what I see here on tv, did I?
I pitty your students
That only proves how little tv you have watched over here. I've seen dosens of programs about that subject. In fact, one man (maurice dewilde) spent most of his life making documentaries about it.
It's a bit sad that you repply in with such a statement, just because you don't have any good arguments.
This was not based on what i saw on tv. It's based on the experiences an american collegue of mine told me. He is as much opposed against this war and the bush administration, but he thinks twice about saying that in public at home, or at his university.
If that is true, then why did bush get ellected? why aren't all americans protesting against this war?
now this is a good example of bashing 🙂
I spent several months in the us. And i did a little more then waiting for a train.
The comment about the litter proves enough. You only saw brussels.
And for your information sabena doesn't exist anymore.
I agree, they weren't very good. But I've seen worse.
I never said belgium is the perfect country did I. That's not the point.
We on the other hand have been watching american shows since we were kids. You have seen some dutch and maybe belgian TV. You can't really compare that can you?
Have you seen many belgian or dutch movies?
Have you read many novels writing by writers over here?
I think it's fair to say that we have seen a lot more american culture than the average american has seen european culture.
hey, finally something we agree on
yes, but not enough, I'm affraid. I hope I'm wrong.
I'm pretty shure he wil arange a conflict somewhere during election time. That will give him his reelection.
Just wait a few years. The man can't do everything at once can he 🙂
SY said:
That's good to hear... I hope something will change because of that...
SY said:
That's a point. But I think that money has a larger influence in America than in most other western countries. E.g. the funding of political parties is partly done by companies. In that way, they can support the politician that they think is good for the company. The politician will favour those companies after the election. In this way, these industries can survive (eg. the weapon industry, the war industry).
The funding of the narcotics police is from the properties they seize. This means that they benefit from taking the easy targets but not the bigger criminals. Because the money made is so much, it is tempting to leave the problem in tact to make more money. As discussed in the above mentioned documentaries, the prisons have become industries. This means that a lot of people (stock holders, people looking for a job etc.) benefit from large numbers of people imprisoned...
Fedde
Rob M said:
Doesn't the mere existance of such a list disturb you !? I would wonder what would happen if journalists and professors would be placed on such a list here. I think that would shake up quite some things! I think such lists are scary and do certainly not help the freedom of speech. The fact that professors and students were expelled only because of a critical view shocks me...
Fedde
I know this is not directly aimed at me, though I'll react...Rob M said:
I try to be critical. I do not use discussion to prove I am right, I try to learn more and want to see how other people think of these matters. Though I would like that some people on the other side of the sea changed their opinions about a few things...
The point is that america is quite powerful at this moment and can try to force their views on the rest of the world. For me, sovereignty of states is very important. An example is that the airport of Netherlands is forced to release a lot of private information about passengers that go the states. When they refused they were threatened to be blocked. Well, the Iraq issue has been discussed extensively, the USA didn't accept different views or critical remarks from other states.
Another example is the War on drugs. Australia wanted to start a project to provide heroin to longtime addicted users. This in order to reduce the crime and spread of diseases. The american government said: we don't like that and this will have consequences...
Luckily, the quite different drugs policy of the Netherlands is still accepted in Europe and the USA. Though I wonder for how long...
Rob M said:
I did not suggest it was so bad. Watch out that it doesn't go so far. In some countries it is or was so bad! (including Iraq)
I really hope that Bush will be replaced!!!
BTW: do you know about the Carlyle group? I didn't receive a reaction about that...
Fedde
The big thing in rural areas (which represent a very small proportion of our population) is satellite dish TV. DirectTV and Dish Network are expanding very rapidly. In our little town, it's difficult to find a house without one of those little dishes mounted in the eaves.
I don't know a way to quantify this, but certainly my experience in setting up and running a business in Luxembourg was eye-opening. The lines between big business and government seem hardly to exist. Just curious, do you think that "the war industry" favored Clinton over Bush I? Or Clinton over Dole?
SY said:
I can imagine that the situation is like that in Luxembourg. But that's not a very good example. Luxembourg is a very small country (even the Netherlands is huge compared to L'). So I think it's hard to separate the business and government there...
You make a point with Clinton. I think he's been a very good president and his views must not have been very popular in some industries. Though the war industry has been more succesful with Bush. I remember that the budgets were raised quite a lot and that happened in a time where big problems are to be solved and the economy went down...
I do not know what the influence of the industry was during the elections. At least, Bush made many decisions that were good for the war industries and companies of his friends and family. But for the american public... !?
Fedde
Well, clearly, there's no consensus here about that. There were a large proportion of people who despised Clinton and tried to blame him for everything that was wrong. And now that Bush is president, there's a similar proportion of people (different people, though) who despise him and blame him for everything that is wrong.
I'm not saying that critical press and tv don't exist in the US. But I think that the average american doesn't like to hear those negative things about it's government.
But do you really want me to believe that the war in iraq and the bush administration is being attacked on the big networks?
Well they are on our major channels.
I can understand that you don't like it when someone in europe pretends to know everything about your own country. On the other hand, you want me to believe that all of you are watching leftwing anti-bush tv shows all day, but a large portion of you support the guy.
Sorry, but does not sound logical.
But appart from my views about the states and your (well rob's) views about belgium, we do agree that bush is wrong. So i'm preaching to the wrong people 🙂
Were are the real supporters of Bush here? there used to be a lot of them. Are they still convinced that Bush is doing the right thing? That Iraq is full of WMD. That the iraqi people are really happy and singing in the streets?
But do you really want me to believe that the war in iraq and the bush administration is being attacked on the big networks?
Well they are on our major channels.
I can understand that you don't like it when someone in europe pretends to know everything about your own country. On the other hand, you want me to believe that all of you are watching leftwing anti-bush tv shows all day, but a large portion of you support the guy.
Sorry, but does not sound logical.
But appart from my views about the states and your (well rob's) views about belgium, we do agree that bush is wrong. So i'm preaching to the wrong people 🙂
Were are the real supporters of Bush here? there used to be a lot of them. Are they still convinced that Bush is doing the right thing? That Iraq is full of WMD. That the iraqi people are really happy and singing in the streets?
What you believe or don't believe isn't really my affair. But nonetheless, yes, Bush is attacked daily on the "big" networks (which are no longer quite so big- more people see CNN than network news). And of course, he's attacked daily in the major newspapers, like all of our presidents; go spend a few days following the New York Times editorials.
Did you see the news conference Bush held the other day? Amazingly hostile questioning, as is the custom at these events. I don't know who looked worse, the reporters or Bush.
SY said:
Well if that's true, then I'm happy about it. But it wasn't true a few months ago.
Was this about those pages in that report about 9/11?
Before this discussion escalates, let's go back to the topic I started. (and I hope you like the topic...)
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/
Fedde
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/
Fedde
SY said:
No I didn't. It's a pity I missed it... 😀
Is this criticism a new thing since the popularity of Bush reduced so much ? Or did it start earlier ?
I wonder what your position is on the drugs problem. Personally, I am for legalizing marihuana all over the world (though it should be taxed and only for people >=18). Some people suggest that that will solve many world problems...
Especially the growing of hemp could provide a good living for many poor farmers in third world countries. And it is a very useful material!!!
Not a new thing at all. Every press conference Bush has given has been with a hostile group of reporters. The largest US newspapers (NYTimes, Washington Post, LA Times) have been critical of him since the day he took office; popularity has nothing to do with it.
SY said:
The press conferences with bush that I saw were very civilized. I rarely see anyone ask a tricky question.
Maybe your idea of a hostile reporter differs from mine.
Has anyone publicly accused him of being a war criminal or something like that?
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