Wow... that's a lot of numbers. thanks for the links.Rob M said:
After studying it a bit, I'm not sure how you define 'very good'. Ppl might get the wrong idea from your comments. The Dutch have exported arms and electronics worth 21 million EUR in 2002. That's pocket money in the arms industry. The Dutch do a lot of foreign trading (20th largest economy in the world, 58th in rank of population size), just not in arms. We are much better at services, flowers and food. Peace dude 😎 😉
Intresting figures though. The French do seem to export a lot there, but the numbers in the report only reflect total exports for the Middle East AFAIK. The UK exported 284 million EUR in 2003. And Japan must have one heck of an army by now...
Rob M said:
The bulk of that would be the Al-Yamamah arms deal and it is probably worth less than the US sales. While the deal is worth a large sum, I doubt it would pay for using Windows NT on an Aegis cruiser.
Don't know how things are elsewhere but the UK is addicted to flogging arms and the Saudis can be relied on to provide a good hit. Unfortunately the crackpot economics of the arms industry does not do any favours for the rest of the UK economy.
Hans L said:
Where did you find that figure? Page 27 of the 2002 report lists a total of 450 million euros in exports. The US is the biggest customer, followed by Germany and Greece. The other big customers are Turkey, France, Taiwan, and Saudi Arabia (for about 20 million euros each). You're right, though, still pocket change in the global scheme of things. But, the percentage of Dutch arms exports going to Saudi Arabia is much greater than the percentage of US arms exports going there.
Page 132 of the 2001 annual report lists 545.7 million euros exported to Saudi Arabia in 2001, and a total of about 8.4 billion euros from 1992-2001.
I think that figure's a bit low, by about a factor of 3:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/armstrade/story/0,10674,1233713,00.html
rfbrw said:
Close. The Guardian lists £189m in UK sales to Saudi Arabia in 2004, and the US state department lists about $150m in sales for 2003.
We were discussing Saudi Arabia so I quoted the exports from NL and UK to Saudi Arabia, not the total exports. Percentages only makes things look weird in this case. US exports way more to Saudi than NL. My eyes would pop out my sockets if this were not the case.😱Rob M said:
The new link you provided quotes 189.33 M pounds for the UK to Saudi, which equals 284 M EUR, like I found in the other reports as well.
Lots of numbers 😉
We were discussing Saudi Arabia so I quoted the exports from NL and UK to Saudi Arabia, not the total exports. Percentages only makes things look weird in this case. US exports way more to Saudi than NL. My eyes would pop out my sockets if this were not the case.😱Rob M said:
The new link you provided quotes 189.33 M pounds for the UK to Saudi, which equals 284 M EUR, like I found in the other reports as well.
Lots of numbers 😉
Don't you guys think it's a little silly throwing those numbers at each other. The arms industry is just an industry like any other. Those people are in there for the money. So it's normal that they want to sell as many arms as possible. They really don't care what people do with the things.
Just because Holland, Belgium or the US sell a lot of arms doesn't really prove anything, or say anything about the people living there.
What's your point?
To me it looks like a "we're better then you, because we sell less arms" sort of argument... And that's BS
Just because Holland, Belgium or the US sell a lot of arms doesn't really prove anything, or say anything about the people living there.
What's your point?
To me it looks like a "we're better then you, because we sell less arms" sort of argument... And that's BS
Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore ...
So it's ok for an administration to tell lies, just to get a "just" war started?
Let's face it, they really needed these lies to get going...
Just saying that Saddam was a bad guy, wasn't enough. He needed to be a threat to the "free" world.
millwood said:
So it's ok for an administration to tell lies, just to get a "just" war started?
Let's face it, they really needed these lies to get going...
Just saying that Saddam was a bad guy, wasn't enough. He needed to be a threat to the "free" world.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore ...
no. I think even if they have occupied your country, took over the military, ruled your people, sent half of your population the concentrition camps, and emptied your banks, you should still refrain from resistance. All you should do is to beg them to do more of that to you.
DIY_Peter said:
no. I think even if they have occupied your country, took over the military, ruled your people, sent half of your population the concentrition camps, and emptied your banks, you should still refrain from resistance. All you should do is to beg them to do more of that to you.
My point is the Dutch do not sell a lot of arms. Wether or not this is a good thing, I leave for others to judgeDIY_Peter said:
I don't think this was a case of fingerpointing. I asked for facts, got them and quoted some numbers which were questioned and then verified again. That's all.
Btw, I don't think selling a lot of weapons serves the world in any way (with the ovbious exception of nuclear weapons during the Cold War). But I do not judge the population of a country based on the export numbers. That's stupid.
Hans L said:
Of course not. Had the US defense industry unable or unwilling to sell arms to the British, the french resistance and all others who were resisting the Nazi, the WWII would have been over so peacefully and no one would have died from it.
🙂
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore ...
I'm sure there is a hint of logic in the above somewhere but there is probably more chance of finding bigfoot and springheeled Jack.
millwood said:
I'm sure there is a hint of logic in the above somewhere but there is probably more chance of finding bigfoot and springheeled Jack.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore ...
Oh? and that happend to the american people did it?
I must have missed that on the news 🙂
And even those things did not happen in Iraq...
Much worse things happen every day in other places around the world, but for some reason, no one is interested in taking action. It hardly makes the papers...
So don't give me that "we did it to help those people" BS
millwood said:
Oh? and that happend to the american people did it?
I must have missed that on the news 🙂
And even those things did not happen in Iraq...
Much worse things happen every day in other places around the world, but for some reason, no one is interested in taking action. It hardly makes the papers...
So don't give me that "we did it to help those people" BS
Hans L said:
I agree. And my post wasn't pointed directly at you Hans.
Governments don't have controle over the arms industry. The arms industry has controle over governments...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore ...
Thats what mr bush and his gang of thieves and murderers has done to Iraq and its
citizens, although old rumma's witch hunt is (logistically) better run than the nazi's, after
all the invisible man is easer to manage than millions of real people (smaller camps, no self
made refugee problem ect)
Seventeen thousand five hundred innocent dead and counting
See if you can get 20K by Christmas
Wow that would be 9/11 times 8 😱
millwood said:
Thats what mr bush and his gang of thieves and murderers has done to Iraq and its
citizens, although old rumma's witch hunt is (logistically) better run than the nazi's, after
all the invisible man is easer to manage than millions of real people (smaller camps, no self
made refugee problem ect)
Seventeen thousand five hundred innocent dead and counting
See if you can get 20K by Christmas
Wow that would be 9/11 times 8 😱
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore ...
How do you know this, are you just guessing? How would you know anyway, the Iraqis don’t even have a real number, and many of the innocents have been killed directly and indirectly by insurgents who come from other mid east nations. Why do you continue to make such unsupported un-provable statements as fact?
Obviously you have a strong opinion, and that's fine, but you have no facts, just bad intent and a hatred for the American government even though you know nothing about it. Internet articles by themselves are worthless, anyone can post a page on the internet with a bunch of lies that sound plausible, it's not like it's fact checked like a reputable news agency, and none of the fact checked news agencies have posted any such information that I am aware of.
So since this is obviously your opinion, and not fact, I feel compelled to tell my opinion of your statements; to put it nicely, these statements are moronic and completely untrue, it doesn’t even make sense. The Americans did not come all that way, risk their lives just to Murder and Pillage. Many died just so the Iraqis could have a chance of freedom which we hold very dear and consider worth the lost lives if it succeeds. Even the Iraqis them selves when poled said in an overwhelming majority (AFIK) that they believe they will be better off in the future with their new found chance of freedom, though they still hate our presence, which is understandable.
B.VDBOS said:Seventeen thousand five hundred innocent dead and counting
See if you can get 20K by Christmas
Wow that would be 9/11 times 8 😱
[/B]
How do you know this, are you just guessing? How would you know anyway, the Iraqis don’t even have a real number, and many of the innocents have been killed directly and indirectly by insurgents who come from other mid east nations. Why do you continue to make such unsupported un-provable statements as fact?
Obviously you have a strong opinion, and that's fine, but you have no facts, just bad intent and a hatred for the American government even though you know nothing about it. Internet articles by themselves are worthless, anyone can post a page on the internet with a bunch of lies that sound plausible, it's not like it's fact checked like a reputable news agency, and none of the fact checked news agencies have posted any such information that I am aware of.
So since this is obviously your opinion, and not fact, I feel compelled to tell my opinion of your statements; to put it nicely, these statements are moronic and completely untrue, it doesn’t even make sense. The Americans did not come all that way, risk their lives just to Murder and Pillage. Many died just so the Iraqis could have a chance of freedom which we hold very dear and consider worth the lost lives if it succeeds. Even the Iraqis them selves when poled said in an overwhelming majority (AFIK) that they believe they will be better off in the future with their new found chance of freedom, though they still hate our presence, which is understandable.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore ...
So long as it doesn't get in the way of American self-interest.
kingdaddy said:
So long as it doesn't get in the way of American self-interest.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Michael Moore ...
then you forgot to mention about your dear soldiers and the fun they had with multiple prisoners. btw, nice way to liberate them, ain't it?
and you forgot to mention a lot of other things.... like the moronic reasons used to start this war and the morons that don't question it.
to put it nicely, your statements above are moronic since you forgot to mention the real reson for waging this war.kingdaddy said:
then you forgot to mention about your dear soldiers and the fun they had with multiple prisoners. btw, nice way to liberate them, ain't it?
and you forgot to mention a lot of other things.... like the moronic reasons used to start this war and the morons that don't question it.
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