and the people have spoken: they don't feel safer either.
remains to be seen if they are still the same morons.
remains to be seen if they are still the same morons.
Apparently you do not see a difference between buying and using oil and going to war over oil.😕kingdaddy said:
Peace is a long long way from home, the actions of the US have made certain of that. What do you think is going to happen with regard to all the hatred you so viciously condemn? Is it going to fade away in time? I really hope so, but how long will it take? Looking at your previous posts, I suppose you feel completely misunderstood as a nation. It looks like 'nobody likes me' on a macro scale and it says to me that your country is unwilling and unable to be held accountable for their actions.
Concering the oil, here are some sources you might learn from:
Some facts:
http://www.forbes.com/2003/03/06/cx_ah_0305oil.html
Some opinion:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec03/oil_10-23.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A10348-2003Jun3?language=printer
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2003/2003companiesiniraq.htm
And were did these billions end up??
http://www.christian-aid.org.uk/indepth/406iraqoilupdate/
And, Kingdaddy, you didn't answer my questions:
- What if it were only 10000 dead Iraqis, or just 1000? What's the difference?
- How can you believe that wars are started because someone wanted to do some 'good' to the planet. Please tell me that you just want to believe that, but realistically see things differently.
War's are started over teritory, resources. You might consider intolerance (usually religion) as another reason, but usually wealth is the unlying reason in those cases.
You're right, some of us do get quite emotional, and my previous post was an example of that. It drives me crazy when I see ppl who seem to be intelligent, disregard everthing that is opposed to their comfortable beliefs and in doing so show no sense of realism at all.
here's some more george bush quotes:
"The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country."
"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."
"One word sums up probably the responsibility of any Governor, and that
one word is 'to be prepared'."
"I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in
the future."
"The future will be better tomorrow."
"We're going to have the best educated American people in the world."
"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."
"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a
firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe."
"Public speaking is very easy."
"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the
polls."
"We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur."
"For NASA, space is still a high priority."
"Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our
children."
"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities
in our air and water that are doing it."
"It's time for the human race to enter the solar system."
hows that???
anyway, i have not followed this topic since my last post, but i think while there is hatred in this world, we will never get peace.
at the moment i am making a short documentary about the socio cultural effects of the media on society, and was doing a few vox-pops interviews on sunday as part of this... i was looking at the perceptions people hold of foreign countries and cultures.... i got quite a lot of interesting and pasionate responses.. one example:
here's a transcript of a small part of what the man in the frame grab i attached was saying:
"all these terrorists, the iraqi's, these ****ing muslims that cover up (pulls cap over eye's to demonstrate) and go to their own parts and do not want to exist. And i become righteous and say, that's it (raises fist with middle finger extended), up the **** islam, i hate islam!"
and he is not the only person i got this kind of response from...
cheers
Hans L said:
it drives me crazy that you don't ask yourself that very question.
I just hate it when the french stole oil from Iraq and russia, 🙂.
Hans L said:
Are you saying that we were using their oil for our own purposes? I just don’t get it, you make no sense, it's crude oil, do you understand the process or refining oil to a point that it's useable. In addition, if we used it for the reconstruction effort then how did we gain anything from this, how are we making money from this practice? Please try to provide some kind of plausible theory of how we gain from Iraq oil, at least try instead of stopping just short of any reason or logic.
Hans L said:
The difference is in the intent; do you think we purposely, knowingly killed innocent civilians? I don’t think we did, why would we, what would we have to gain from this evil act. Our military is on the leading front of precision bombing and we have taken greater steps in protecting civilians then any other nation in any other war in history, so what in our nature or recent past suggests that we have purposely killed civilians, please I would like to know, if you cant answer WHY then you have no continuity in your ridiculous theory, you have nothing. If any other country bombed anywhere near the scale we have, there would 10 times more civilian casualties, no? So obviously we care about civilians, no? If we were half the murdering bullies you believe, why wouldn’t we just drop a A-bomb and clear the hole area and take all the oil and say screw everybody we do what we want, I mean that’s what many of you are suggesting we are like, so WHY, WHY WHY, you have no WHY, just conspiracy theories that don’t answer WHY.
Obviously some unavoidable casualties will always happen in war, but many of you guys are saying that we are murdering innocent civilians for no apparent reason, this is not at all logical, and there is no proof or truth to these statements. BTW don’t bother posting internet articles that you think prove your point, I wont read them, I already discussed the irrelevances of internet opinions that have no proven facts to reference to. Just use your own mind, why would we kill innocent civilians, what’s the motive, why do you think you know the truth by reading some internet articles?
WHY?
Maybe however (Bush?) ordered the CPA to transfer crude oil silo's to an alternative bank account, but after some persuasion I'm sure he settled for a money transfer instead...kingdaddy said:
Read the flippin headlines: MONEY is MISSING. 20 BILLION DOLLAR according to Chrsitian Aid. But I'm beginning to doubt your intellectual skills to evaluate just how much trouble it is to misplace that much money.
I agree it does make a difference what the intent is. It just doesn't make enough of a difference.
So that makes it ok, right?
You must learn to read. I never said on purpose anywhere.
Because you KILL less PEOPLE, you care about them? That makes you look GOOD? It's unbelievable how far lost ppl can get.
I'm not stating you're all a bunch of psycho killers. You are misreading and overreacting again. What I am trying to get through to you (like that's going to happen) is that your government has started a war over oil. And I'm still thoroughly confused why the majority of your population thinks that was a prudent move. It's sad that you see no other alternative than to support everything your country does like meek sheep. Or is it more like vindictive wolves. Probably a bit of both.
Good for you! Don't read it. Keep up the ignorance. I suppose Forbes and the Chrsitian Aid are full of crap as well?
MONEY and CONTROL.
There... another 10 minutes well spent... Oh no, it wasn't, cause you'd rather eat your ear than question an institution like your government.
Hans L said:
My response was intended to cover many posters responses, not just yours, so I made a general statment that IMO covered the general attitude. Now about the second part, the whole tired argument that we went to war over oil.
I'm not as arrogant as many hear so I wont' pretend to know exactly what was on the minds of our high level officials, but I can use some reason and logic along with the stories from both sides to come to a conclusion. BTW none of my conclusions will absolutely agree with any of these Internet accounts, pro or con, the one thing I have learned is that the truth lies somewhere in-between the two extreme sides. That being said I believe the real reason for the war was the uncertainty of where the weapons were and the possibility that these could turn up in terrorist cells. You see there is a big target painted on the USA, the first place any dirty bomb or chemical weapon would be used is on the USA (if possible). Long ago we lost our intelligence connections (thanks Bill Clinton) and have subsequently lost track of the WMD that Iraq once had, so did the UN. Our government has been spending Billions a year just keeping tab’s on SH and Iraq, as well as other problem nations, the fact that nobody couldn’t get SH to tell where he put the WMD leaves most to believe that there is something bad brewing, and after 9/11 there is no excuse to be caught off guard. We well know that many nations seek to kill our civilians purposely, they have made that very clear, therefore many believe in preempting the most plausible problem areas, Iraq, Iran, IMO Saudi Arabia, and of coarse N. Korea. Iraq was a good place to go next, the forces were already near and there was a good possibility that turning Iraq into a free nation might have a domino effect on the other problem areas in the mid east, this IMO would ultimately save many more lives then any other scenario. Nobody really wants to go to war, it's an ugly thing, nations are best changed from within, so I think many hear hope this will kick start that process and move it along before there is a far more serious war involving many of the mid east nations that will cost us all greatly.
Now of course this is speculation mixed with hopeful thinking, but I believe that many in our government share the same thinking or at least something close. But I’m sure it’s much easier to believe that we just want oil and have no regard for human life, even though you and you country are just as guilty of everything you accuse, but hey lets not look at ourselves, lets instead look at others and fix them first.
Oh, about the intent not making enough difference, well according to every bible and monotheistic religion on earth it's the only thing that matters, after all we all make mistakes, but our intent is what makes sin and defilement.
Hans L said:
20 Billion, big deal, it cost more than that in just 1 week during the heavy part of the war, do you think 20 Billion would even be a down payment on the cost to date, not even close. We were spending so much (something like 3 billion per day) that we probably lost 20 or 30 Billion in the paper work. Why must believe we would bother to steal so little, and sacrifice so much
Disclaimer:
. Of course my numbers could be wrong but probably not by much, most of the information I gleaned was from unsubstantiated articles just like nearly all that are posted hear, but I know that it must cost a astronomical sum to wage an high tech war with over 200,000 troops involved over a long period, especially the way our government spends, so I doubt that these numbers area far off.
Well-said kingdaddy.
I'd also like to point out to Hans L that "intent" is enough to get a conviction in a criminal trial.
And regarding his (Hans L) patronizing tone, and his generalizations that Americans are imperialistic murderous thieves. I always point out that the U.S. government gives more foreign aid than any other country (even with our comparably low taxes), and American citizens give more charitable donations than those of any other country. To the tune of:
$696 person/year - U.S.
$141 person/year - U.K.
$57 person/year - E.U.
(2002 figures)
I'd also like to point out to Hans L that "intent" is enough to get a conviction in a criminal trial.
And regarding his (Hans L) patronizing tone, and his generalizations that Americans are imperialistic murderous thieves. I always point out that the U.S. government gives more foreign aid than any other country (even with our comparably low taxes), and American citizens give more charitable donations than those of any other country. To the tune of:
$696 person/year - U.S.
$141 person/year - U.K.
$57 person/year - E.U.
(2002 figures)
roibm said:
The governments of the E.U. are about 50% larger than the U.S., and are 45% of GDP vs. 30% in the U.S. Plus the E.U. governments (taxpayers) spend twice as much on "social spending" than the U.S. If any children are getting hosed with footing the bill for other family’s welfare its Continental Europe.
And what is this "bring it on" lingo?
roibm said:
I'm sorry, I keep reading your posts, but I fail to see in any of them where your are even attempting to stay within the spirit of this thread. Maybe I misread, can you kindly point me to even one of your replies that That falls within the confines of "Support Peace"?
just one would be sufficient, if not, maybe you should just but out, and find another thread to spread your negative crap.
And what does GDP prove? Not much about quality of life.Lusso5 said:
Tell us how long are your holidays.
Tell us about your plywood houses.
Tell us about your way of life and interest for a healthy life(GE-food etc.).
Tell us about your healthcare/retirement/jobless system.
Tell us about your racial problems.
Tell us about your other big social problems.
Tell us about many others...
roibm said:
robim - what does any of the above have to do with your comment below? My response was to that comment. Are you changing the subject for the sake of argument?
roibm said:
roibm said:
No see, I read your posts and none have even a remotely pertinent remark that is within the boundary of this thread, mine however, nearly all are about better understanding, tolerance and the general POV of American’s as I know it. Not a bunch of useless hateful, smart-***, inflammatory remarks like yours, which is quite opposite of the spirit of this thread.
The invitation is still open to show one post that is anywhere close to the topic.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.