An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Huh? Ideal driver for a Synergy horn has an Fb of about 500hz. That's why the Pyle PDMR5 works so well; it has an Fb of 465hz and a qts of 2.45.
The Dayton ND13TE-8 has an Fs of 450hz and a qts of 1.45. You should be able to get a similar response as the Pyle, but with the benefit of getting much closer to the throat.
I'm using the Pyle because it's output per dollar crushes the Dayton, and it's easier to work with. But the Dayton will work too.
The Dayton is particularly interesting if you push it's FB up to 700hz or so. That allows it to work with some of the 3/4" and 1/2" compression drivers.
1/2" Dome Tweeter Element 10 Pcs. | 275-010
Pyle PDMR5 5" Sealed Back Midrange | 292-200
I'm picturing a Synergy horn that crams something like eight of the Dayton ND13TEs right up against a B&C DE5. Look how tiny these things are, there isn't anything else in the world that would allow you to get the mids closer.
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So it's still a bit of a moving target - I shall sit quiet for awhile longer and see what you guys get up to.
It's really easy these days:
1) buy eight Pyle PDMR5s ($76) http://www.parts-express.com/pyle-pdmr5-5-sealed-back-midrange-speaker-driver--292-200
2) Buy that big QSC waveguide (2) ($70) http://www.parts-express.com/qsc-pl-000446gp-replacement-waveguide-horn-for-hpr152i--245-625
3) Buy any ol' 15" woofer (2) ($130) http://www.parts-express.com/eminence-alpha-15a-15-driver--290-407
4) Buy a miniDSP ($80) http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/2-x-in-4-x-out
5) Buy that four channel "T-Amp" at Parts Express ($30) http://www.parts-express.com/lepai-4x45w-mini-amplifier-with-remote-usb-mp3-media-card-fm--310-304
6) Buy a USB mic ($75) http://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1
7) Download Arta or HolmImpulse ($0) http://www.holmacoustics.com/holmimpulse.php
8) Buy a plate amp ($80) (make sure it's good to 350hz, where the mids come into play.)
9) Buy a BMS 4550 (2) ($300) http://www.usspeaker.com/bms 4550-1.htm
Cut four pieces of wood into 5" squares. Mount the midranges face down on the plates. Gorilla glue them to the QSC waveguide. Drill two holes in the mounting plates at the edges with a diameter of 3/4" each. Mount your compression driver. Put your fifteen in a box. Hook up the plate amp to the fifteen. Hook up the four channel amp to your compression driver and your midranges. MiniDSP does the xover. Use that USB mic and the miniDSP to get flat response.
Seriously people, don't overthink this. You can get 90% of the way there in a Sunday. You don't even need a whole weekend.
It's easy to get lost in the details, because the devil is in the details, but you can get excellent results with very little effort and money. The plans I just laid out cost about $800 for a pair of speakers and it will blow you away. If you're not happy with the results, unloading the parts on eBay is trival. And every speaker builder needs a mic and a miniDSP.
Yes, you can get the price down by about $100-$200 if you use a less expensive compression driver. Don't use the Dayton it sucks.
When you're done it will look like this:
P.S. that's me
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Patrick/John-
That isn't the QSC horn in your pic. Nor is that "any old 15" woofer! (AE TD15M I think).
But you're right that its not all that hard tp get usable results if done with an active crossover. I wouldn't say 90% , maybe 75%? What are the measurement units of loudspeaker optimumness anyway, maybe 'Danleys'? I'd say you can get to maybe 750 milliDanleys with a MiniDSP.
But I think you'd want a bigger waveguide, that cd can already drive as low as the qsc does all by itself. Doing a Synergy on the QSC, the mids only get close in, the waveguide itself doesn't do anything below kHz or so
That isn't the QSC horn in your pic. Nor is that "any old 15" woofer! (AE TD15M I think).
But you're right that its not all that hard tp get usable results if done with an active crossover. I wouldn't say 90% , maybe 75%? What are the measurement units of loudspeaker optimumness anyway, maybe 'Danleys'? I'd say you can get to maybe 750 milliDanleys with a MiniDSP.
But I think you'd want a bigger waveguide, that cd can already drive as low as the qsc does all by itself. Doing a Synergy on the QSC, the mids only get close in, the waveguide itself doesn't do anything below kHz or so
Lambda Unity Horn with Lambda plywood horn (no longer available, this is William Cowan's)
QSC Waveguide, thirty five clams yo
A QSC waveguide is exactly one half of the width of a Danley SH-50.
That reduction in width means that the QSC maintains directivity down to 964hz, while the Danley SH-50 goes down to 482hz.
Will anyone hear a difference? Yeah, probably.
Will it be night and day? No, I don't think so.
I think the QSC has the potential to sound better than the Lambda. The QSC has epically great polars, just check out the measurements on the 'great waveguide' thread. The QSC waveguide and the JBL PT waveguide are the reason I don't build waveguides any more. They're SO GOOD there's really no good reason to build your own anymore, IMHO.
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Those are just computer renderings and not real speakers. That guy was trying to convince Danley to make home hi-fi speakers and drew up those renderings.
You're speaking in too many absolutes. The ideal set of parameters is mostly dictated by the design of the Synergy horn. However, certain drivers will never be suitable (to the point of not being being practical or useful) for a Synergy horn no mater what you do with them. The B&C Speakers DE5 and DE7 have such weak high frequency performance in a conical horn by the time you get everything EQ'ed to a reasonable frequency response they could be beat in sensitivity by a cone and dome setup.
You don't understand. Nothing was ever built or even simulated in regards to those speaker drawings. They only exist as drawings and nothing more. There is nothing real about them.
B&C DE5 response
B&C DE7 response
B&C DE250 response
(All three measurements on the B&C ME45 horn. First two are in conjunction with an adapter.)
Ya killin' me John 😉
B&C's own measurements indicate that the $44 DE5 has more output at 2khz than the DE250. The DE250 has about 3dB more output in the top octave. That's not a huge difference.
The HUGE difference is cost and weight; the DE250 is more expensive and much much larger.
In 80% of the cases, the DE250 is going to work better, but there are definitely some 'edge' cases where a DE5 will work rather awesomely. Particularly if space is a big issue (and for me, it definitely is.)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
^^ I believe that's the DE5
DE250, for comparison's sake
The main reason I like these tiny drivers is that 75% of my projects are cornerloaded. So being able to jam the horn closer to the corner means that I can foreshorten the horn:
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You are a crazy guy - there are plenty of small full range drivers suitable for a car, but you need to put a horn speaker in there, and a multi-driver one at that !!!!!! - what does the rest of your car look like 😀
THe ME45 is not a conical horn. I got a DE5 in and installed it on a 40 X 60 conical horn with a 1038cm^2 mouth. The 2.83Vrms sensitivity was 106.4dB at 1M. It was down 14.7dB at 18KHz from the mid band. Unless you resort to adding a lowpass filter around 16KHz to 17KHz and scarificing impedance, the best you can do with these drivers is about 92dB 1W/1M. A cone and dome setup can do that or better.
You all use compression drivers, but why not a tweeter dome like the aluminium version from visaton, she have also a mid dome who can go as low as 400 hz.
Do not now if these are still available. Phillips has old ones who are big for mid domes from the 70,s, see picture, it is just a thought.
Freq: 350-5000 Hz
Spreekspoel: 2 inch / 5 cm
Inbouwdiameter: 13,4 cm
Inbouwdiepte: 11 cm
Gewicht: 1042 gr
or these ones
2 Morel Cam 558 Soft Dome Midrange Pair MDM55 New | eBay
regards
Do not now if these are still available. Phillips has old ones who are big for mid domes from the 70,s, see picture, it is just a thought.
Freq: 350-5000 Hz
Spreekspoel: 2 inch / 5 cm
Inbouwdiameter: 13,4 cm
Inbouwdiepte: 11 cm
Gewicht: 1042 gr
or these ones
2 Morel Cam 558 Soft Dome Midrange Pair MDM55 New | eBay
regards
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I did test the dome in sim, you are right, do not work well, except when very low Fs, but these are expensive if she exists.
Why not in stead of a compression driver a wideband (coaxial?) driver? I did sim it and I think a two way synergy who can work from 80 Hz to 20Khz can work fine. Hornresp do not let see things above 3 Khz, combine them do not work.
regards
Why not in stead of a compression driver a wideband (coaxial?) driver? I did sim it and I think a two way synergy who can work from 80 Hz to 20Khz can work fine. Hornresp do not let see things above 3 Khz, combine them do not work.
regards
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Hi Patrick,
Thanks very much for taking the time to put together a list of items and useful links - very handy indeed.
I'm looking at the equipment list you posted. The one thing I assume is optional is the amplifier as I like to DIY those too.
Is your recommended shopping list for drivers based on best price, best sound quality, or....
Seems to me that I could 'go all horn' if I used a bass bin [ inlowsound.com ] down below, is this a simple thing to do ?
Thanks very much for taking the time to put together a list of items and useful links - very handy indeed.
I'm looking at the equipment list you posted. The one thing I assume is optional is the amplifier as I like to DIY those too.
Is your recommended shopping list for drivers based on best price, best sound quality, or....
Seems to me that I could 'go all horn' if I used a bass bin [ inlowsound.com ] down below, is this a simple thing to do ?
I have look at a akabak script, but this can easely be done with hornresp, just keep horn the same for all sections and move only L12 put S2 on automatic.
Get the ports right and go with that banana. Unfortanely the 60 x 60 can simmed but 60 x 90 I do not now.
Is this the right way? ;-).
Get the ports right and go with that banana. Unfortanely the 60 x 60 can simmed but 60 x 90 I do not now.
Is this the right way? ;-).
Read the Synergy patent. All the questions you have been asking are in the patent.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/PDF/Synergy_Patent.pdf
I figured I would dump random Unity horn build info in this thread. Nothing I am doing warrants another thread on the subject, and really this was most of where I have read about Unity Horn information.
Here is what I have going on:
B&C DE10: B&C DE10-8 1" Mylar Horn Compression Driver 8 Ohm 2-Bolt | 294-600
Cheap $5 Horn from MCM
Part Express buyout mids: 4" Paper Cone Sealed Back Midrange Speaker A0100008FP09IA | 289-135
So slap them together and it is actually not to bad sounding!
Not much math going on here. I tried to get the mids and CD as close as I could. The mids are not sealed very well, and the whole thing is just tossed together with hot glue right now. The mids have a FS of 900hz. I would like to coat the cones and try to lower the FS some.
Here is what I have going on:
B&C DE10: B&C DE10-8 1" Mylar Horn Compression Driver 8 Ohm 2-Bolt | 294-600
Cheap $5 Horn from MCM
Part Express buyout mids: 4" Paper Cone Sealed Back Midrange Speaker A0100008FP09IA | 289-135
So slap them together and it is actually not to bad sounding!
Not much math going on here. I tried to get the mids and CD as close as I could. The mids are not sealed very well, and the whole thing is just tossed together with hot glue right now. The mids have a FS of 900hz. I would like to coat the cones and try to lower the FS some.
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