Just for the record: I'm no atteist and I don't care whether you believe it or no since my beliefs concern me alone.
I think one thing that bothers non believers is the idea that man cannot act morally without fear of a god figure.
When you link the two, it angers people who have made efforts and sacrifices (through free will) to live what they have carefully decided is a moral life.
These morals are based on observations and thought and study of what makes a good society. Many of these morals are the same as many religions espouse, others aren't. Because some are the same as certain religions doesn't mean they are agreeing to that religion. Of course religions have put much effort into determining what is moral behavior so many of these ideas are in agreement with what non-believers think. Perhaps some of even religions ideas are actually invented by man not God.
You may say that non- believers can then choose selfishly what rules they believe. Well different religions also believe somewhat different moral codes also. I'm sure you are not saying your religious ways are the only correct ones. As I've mentioned before, both sides are guilty of not living by their codes.
If you look at what religions believe is moral behavior and what non- belivers think is moral behavior, it is usually very close- with a few exceptions...
When you link the two, it angers people who have made efforts and sacrifices (through free will) to live what they have carefully decided is a moral life.
These morals are based on observations and thought and study of what makes a good society. Many of these morals are the same as many religions espouse, others aren't. Because some are the same as certain religions doesn't mean they are agreeing to that religion. Of course religions have put much effort into determining what is moral behavior so many of these ideas are in agreement with what non-believers think. Perhaps some of even religions ideas are actually invented by man not God.
You may say that non- believers can then choose selfishly what rules they believe. Well different religions also believe somewhat different moral codes also. I'm sure you are not saying your religious ways are the only correct ones. As I've mentioned before, both sides are guilty of not living by their codes.
If you look at what religions believe is moral behavior and what non- belivers think is moral behavior, it is usually very close- with a few exceptions...
More then a few exceptions, history tells us.Variac said:
Maybe in this society in this time, but the main difference between someone making their own morals and those who believe in a higher power that is the reference for morality, is that God's reference of right and wrong do not and never have changed. Societies and the line between right and wrong have changed much over the years depending on where and when you lived. At one time many societies believed it ok to sacrifice humans, some sacrificed children, and that was ok. Notice that all these who did this under the guise of any religion, were societies who believed in many different gods who had no standard of morality. To my knowledge those who have a monotheistic belief system have been very consistent in the ideas of right and wrong. Of coarse there are offshoots of extremist that claim to believe in the same God as the main stream group that commit all kinds of atrocious acts, but in all reality they are just liars, they are using the front of religion to execute their selfish hatred and anger.
There is something fundamentally wrong with leaning on your own understanding to distinguish what is right and what is wrong; it is flawed terribly, as it is human nature to be selfish and lazy, so most will maneuver their so called self morals to fit this.
I think a lot are angry at God because of what many have done in the name of God, the history of large organized religions are at best an embarrassing representation of how ugly people can be toward one another. This was what I was referring to when I was speaking of the Catholic Church, not the people, but the foundation that Catholicism was built on in the early years. No organized religion in history has more blood on its hands then the Catholic Church and their early leaders, and none of them cared or understood about the teachings of Jesus.
If that's true, why do Christians eat bacon? Why do we not practice polygamy? Keep slaves? Why do we cut the corners of our hair? Mix wool and cotton? Approach menstruating women? Why can Catholics now eat hamburger on Friday?
Seems to me like the rules sure DID change. There may be a theological justification for that change, but change it did.
SY said:
I'm not talking about Church doctrine, these have nothing to do with right and wrong. No bible passage I've ever read says anything about not eating pork, menstruating or the like. God didn’t make the kosher laws, these are human rules mostly based on some agenda driven interpretation of the Bible . Murder is always wrong, stealing is always wrong, stepping on someone to better yourself is always wrong, lying is always wrong, regardless of the circumstances according to the teachings of God. It's about the intent, not the action; the difference between killing and murder is solely in the intent, same with a lie, that’s why it's wrong and that’s why it has never changed. A persons intent is where the sin is, all the ten commandments deal with intent, not action, these are the real moral laws.
Sorry for the long winded point, I'm sure you get where I'm coming from anyway.
Sorry to disabuse you, but if one believes in the Bible (as Christians do), those laws WERE handed down by the Hebrew god at the same venue (Har Sinai) and to the same person (Moshe) as the decalogue. And Christian doctrine recognizes that. IIRC, it was Paul who said, in effect, following the sacrifice of Jesus, it no longer matters what you eat.
kingdaddy said:
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. (Ex. 35:2).
And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar: But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD. And if his offering be of the flocks, namely, of the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall bring it a male without blemish. And he shall kill it on the side of the altar northward before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall sprinkle his blood round about upon the altar. (Lev. 1:8-11)
And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you. These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. (Lev. 11:7-11)
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. (Lev. 15:19-24)
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee. (Lev. 19:19)
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard. (Lev. 19:27).
And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother's name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan). And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death. (Lev. 24:11-16)
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. (Lev. 25:44-45)
I'm not about to get into biblical history, not enough time, but your right that was Old Testament law, and in the past, it no longer applies for good reason. Anyway what I meant by God's law never changes is still true, the old law was fulfilled and complete, the new law has it's course and purpose and someday it will be complete. But the root of the laws still have never changed, they have always been the same. These testaments were put here for our inabilities, in a way they were here because of our shortcomings as humans, a way to still have companionship with God even though we are flailing against him. Even so, there was not any reference or written law even in the old testament that proclaimed that many of these things were wrong, like wool mixed with cotton or eating pork or cutting your hair a cretin way, these are gross misinterpretations and misunderstandings by religious zealots, in my estimation.
Kingdaddy:
With all respect, you just got quoted chapter and verse about eating pork, etc.
How on Earth can you deny what is just put up on the board by Rob M?
With all respect, you just got quoted chapter and verse about eating pork, etc.
How on Earth can you deny what is just put up on the board by Rob M?
Well, there was an old law. And now there's a new law. But the law hasn't changed. I'm dizzy at the thought of this.
kd, your comment on mullets gives me great hope for you.
kd, your comment on mullets gives me great hope for you.
I missed Rob's post.
I don’t have time to take them all on, it's late for me, but Jesus himself broke the Sabbath, and other places it says all thing made by the lord are good, or good meat, something like that, anyway there are many seemingly contradictions, but the whole meaning I get is that all these little rules are petty things to help teach us simple discipline, there is no implication of these being in any way a fixed moral rule. Jesus himself wallowed in and around sinful and unclean natured people during his ministry, this is also a big no-no . I believe God has a different classification between these guides and fixed moral laws, cretin laws transcend culture and time, these laws always include your intent. IOW, it's lawful to go outside these guides when your intent is pure, or you know what your doing (for lack of a better phrase). Face it, it's not a mortal sin to eat pork, or cut your hair, or were all doomed.
BTW there is also scripture that says plainly, that God sought to kill Moses (something about the circumcision of his child) do you think he really tried but failed to kill Moses?
It’s amazing how much can be lost in translation, I believe there are many translation errors and some books/verses that are just writings from religious groups or followers that got included in every version of bible printed (call me a heretic). I don’t believe that the present interpretation is without flaw. I also believe man and God existed for a long while before any Bible was ever written, so I don’t take the literal word the same as many believers probably do. I do believe it’s possible to be saved and have companionship with God without ever reading any Bible. How would someone just automatically know that it’s sinful to cut your hair wrong, or mix wool with cotton, would they suffer in their sin because they couldn’t have access to a modern Bible?.
Jesus also said my flesh is meat indeed, or something like that too, do you think he meant to actually eat him?
I don’t have time to take them all on, it's late for me, but Jesus himself broke the Sabbath, and other places it says all thing made by the lord are good, or good meat, something like that, anyway there are many seemingly contradictions, but the whole meaning I get is that all these little rules are petty things to help teach us simple discipline, there is no implication of these being in any way a fixed moral rule. Jesus himself wallowed in and around sinful and unclean natured people during his ministry, this is also a big no-no . I believe God has a different classification between these guides and fixed moral laws, cretin laws transcend culture and time, these laws always include your intent. IOW, it's lawful to go outside these guides when your intent is pure, or you know what your doing (for lack of a better phrase). Face it, it's not a mortal sin to eat pork, or cut your hair, or were all doomed.
BTW there is also scripture that says plainly, that God sought to kill Moses (something about the circumcision of his child) do you think he really tried but failed to kill Moses?
It’s amazing how much can be lost in translation, I believe there are many translation errors and some books/verses that are just writings from religious groups or followers that got included in every version of bible printed (call me a heretic). I don’t believe that the present interpretation is without flaw. I also believe man and God existed for a long while before any Bible was ever written, so I don’t take the literal word the same as many believers probably do. I do believe it’s possible to be saved and have companionship with God without ever reading any Bible. How would someone just automatically know that it’s sinful to cut your hair wrong, or mix wool with cotton, would they suffer in their sin because they couldn’t have access to a modern Bible?.
Jesus also said my flesh is meat indeed, or something like that too, do you think he meant to actually eat him?
None of that is the question.
Your claim: under Christian belief, their god's law has not changed.
My response (with excellent backup by Rob): here's several examples where it has. And you provided a few more.
Your claim: under Christian belief, their god's law has not changed.
My response (with excellent backup by Rob): here's several examples where it has. And you provided a few more.
So you are saying that you need to use your own human judgement to decide which of God's laws are to be obeyed?
Also leave the poor members from Crete out of this 😡 😉
Throwing in a cat story real quick here, the one to which I gave food brought me a little snake as a present once. It was a young garter snake. I am glad it did not kill it. Maybe it knew that I like those type of snakes, as I often try to protect them from neighborhood cats.
Dolphins carry on similar sexual behaviors as humans. It is mostly the adolescents which can be rather delinquent. They do things like gang rapes. I was a little disappointed to learn of such behavior, but I still like them as fellow sentient beings very much. I would submit that if we have souls, then they should have them too.
Even Paul and Peter could not get along smoothly because of disputes over which OT regulations should be observed. I think the best thing is to hope in God but also realize that our religious practices often seem little more than superstition. 🙁
Dolphins carry on similar sexual behaviors as humans. It is mostly the adolescents which can be rather delinquent. They do things like gang rapes. I was a little disappointed to learn of such behavior, but I still like them as fellow sentient beings very much. I would submit that if we have souls, then they should have them too.
Even Paul and Peter could not get along smoothly because of disputes over which OT regulations should be observed. I think the best thing is to hope in God but also realize that our religious practices often seem little more than superstition. 🙁
Variac said:
No, I believe that God will teach you all you need to know through a spiritual means, if you let him, it's not from your own mind. I believe that you are a Spirit, you live in a body and you have a soul, and that your soul is made up of your Mind, Emotions and Will.
Subo1, I agree that most religious practices are indeed superstition.
Sy, once again, these were not laws, the only laws God ever handed down were the ten commandments.
kd, if you wish to believe in the Bible, it would help to actually read it. The laws of Leviticus I cited are all prefixed by "And YHVH said to Moses saying..."
Sy
The original topic that started this was concerning laws of morality, Gods laws, not mans laws. I don't believe and never have that all these rules have anything to do with morality, do you?
BTW, I have read the Bible many times, and understand a great deal of it, you must be careful with any scripture taken out of context, many of the books of the Bible we have today are just stories, not the literal word of God. Also try looking up the original text and see how close the words and actual meanings are to English translation. I don’t believe you can understand the Bible by just reading the words, and you seem to be only interested in proving you’re right by the literal meanings. If we are only talking about specifics and not the spirit of the words, then yes you are right, and I am wrong, Gods laws are always changing and most of the Bible is one big contradiction.
The original topic that started this was concerning laws of morality, Gods laws, not mans laws. I don't believe and never have that all these rules have anything to do with morality, do you?
BTW, I have read the Bible many times, and understand a great deal of it, you must be careful with any scripture taken out of context, many of the books of the Bible we have today are just stories, not the literal word of God. Also try looking up the original text and see how close the words and actual meanings are to English translation. I don’t believe you can understand the Bible by just reading the words, and you seem to be only interested in proving you’re right by the literal meanings. If we are only talking about specifics and not the spirit of the words, then yes you are right, and I am wrong, Gods laws are always changing and most of the Bible is one big contradiction.
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