I believe that could be easily arranged, but are you willing to finance the whole event? I might even drop by to get to know Carlos better 😉
Peter Daniel said:
what kind of financing would be in order?
it should be free since Carlos says he has these "uber" wires.... just grab some OFC copper... his wires... blind fold people and do a "1 or 2" test with the same exact speaker and amp... just have the wires on a switch...
also don't forget a control... where you tell them "1 or 2" but you don't actually change the wire...
the Placebo effect 😉
I'm sure there are some college grad students looking for something to do research on. From physics to accoustic eng to psychology, any number of majors could do this as a fully funded stringent experiment that has to stand up to the criticism of their professors etc.
Chris8sirhC said:
good idea I also happen to be a psych major 😛 😛
the most interesting would be amplifier topographies... cause if you prove there's a difference... you also get $10k from RC 😛 😛 😛
Audiophilenoob said:
Read my lips: the piano is there all the time, you just need to concentrate and pay attention to the music.
Some people have difficulty in concentrating on these occasions or get nervous to be put to a test.
Read below...
Audiophilenoob said:
Read above.
You call this a reliable test?
You can take conclusions out of this?
Hey, I've participated in too many tests of that kind, I know what I'm talking about.
Audiophilenoob said:
Then do it.
Or take a plane and WE do it.
Ok i am ending this thread about speaker wire. At least ending it for me. I put on the stuff i have been twisting for two days . Each lead had 3 sets of twisted pair 18 guage silver over copper communication wire. For a total of 6 conductors per set of + and - . Each set is 6 foot 7 inches long give or take an inch. Dead short reading trying to get a resistance measurment so i am guessing my meter isnt that sensitive. Also wouldnt read capacitance went to the error beep. Measured .017 mH up to .028 mH on the 4 total leads.
Each set goes from the output of my amp to the passive crossover which is jury rigged directly to the terminal leads into the speaker cabinets, so no different wire in there except inside the cabinet from terminal to speaker.
My GF her brother me and my rich "i have to many toys to enjoy" neighbour.
Warning Sign by Coldplay. Played it like 50 times and never want to hear it again.
Long story short. Wait actually ill add this. According to a chart we found on line we have nearly tripled the surface area from the single lead 16 guage wire that we replaced. But no more excuses.
the Midrange changed. That was the consensus. Nothing else was apparent. I dont know if it was removing the extra 3 feet and mounting the crossover direct or what. I put the 16 gauge cheese wire on played the song a few times and then put the twisted pair DIY stuff on and the midrange changed. Wasnt even a 5 minute argument. Now the debate (5 glasses of red wine in) is whether or not the change in wire strand count was the difference. Who knows. Anyway, this thread was thouroughly entertaining. But in conclusion and in my own 'opinion' I could have went out and bought cheesy wire, like 12 gauge or something and been perfectly happy.
Time for an amp or two or three. Must go active and remove this electrical storm from my speaker line.
Cheers!
Each set goes from the output of my amp to the passive crossover which is jury rigged directly to the terminal leads into the speaker cabinets, so no different wire in there except inside the cabinet from terminal to speaker.
My GF her brother me and my rich "i have to many toys to enjoy" neighbour.
Warning Sign by Coldplay. Played it like 50 times and never want to hear it again.
Long story short. Wait actually ill add this. According to a chart we found on line we have nearly tripled the surface area from the single lead 16 guage wire that we replaced. But no more excuses.
the Midrange changed. That was the consensus. Nothing else was apparent. I dont know if it was removing the extra 3 feet and mounting the crossover direct or what. I put the 16 gauge cheese wire on played the song a few times and then put the twisted pair DIY stuff on and the midrange changed. Wasnt even a 5 minute argument. Now the debate (5 glasses of red wine in) is whether or not the change in wire strand count was the difference. Who knows. Anyway, this thread was thouroughly entertaining. But in conclusion and in my own 'opinion' I could have went out and bought cheesy wire, like 12 gauge or something and been perfectly happy.
Time for an amp or two or three. Must go active and remove this electrical storm from my speaker line.
Cheers!
Attachments
Madmike2 said:
Time for an amp or two or three. Must go active and remove this electrical storm from my speaker line.
Cheers!
the light shines
😀
Oh and PeterDaniel, if possible i would like to talk to you about some buisness. Amp buisness. I would share wine but it will be gone in a minute. I am reading on the web that i might be wrong in snubbing Class D amplifiers(same as chip amp?) . They are really good now? Only ones i ever heard were 12 years ago and they were garbage.
I'm not sure how good they are now. Some people say they good, but I never had a chance to try a good one.
I was thinking about testing some Hypex modules, but they are asking crazy money for shipping. 😉
I was thinking about testing some Hypex modules, but they are asking crazy money for shipping. 😉
Ohhh so chip amps and class d are 2 distinct animals?? I thought they were one and the same. My bad. I apologize. For using my bad and mistaking the amps.
I meet two groups of people here . . .
One: having good ears . . .
Another: having poor ears where I belong . . .
I agree there are many good cables . . .
Design good . . .
Color good . . .
Thickness good . . .
Price amazing and good . . .
Connnectors gold . . .
Insulator transparent . . .
Vibration free . . .
I feel different sounds during few days . . .
5th day I feel no more difference . . .
I belong to the 2nd group . . .
That is exactly my observation as well. Most difference can be clearly perceived first few days, later it becoms normality and it does not longer impresses me.
However, there is another aspect of it, which has more pronounced effect. In that time, I no longer search for new "upgrades", I become calm (in difference to being restless in my search) and completely satisfied with a system, or should I say with the music the system produces. I concentrate then on music only, and not on a system and the sound of components. Of course, this situation is not permanent and sooner or later the new "search" starts all over again. 😉
Talking about expensive wire, how about that "steal" : http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablintr&1126311347
However, there is another aspect of it, which has more pronounced effect. In that time, I no longer search for new "upgrades", I become calm (in difference to being restless in my search) and completely satisfied with a system, or should I say with the music the system produces. I concentrate then on music only, and not on a system and the sound of components. Of course, this situation is not permanent and sooner or later the new "search" starts all over again. 😉
Talking about expensive wire, how about that "steal" : http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablintr&1126311347
jh6you said:
I find that too. The sound seems different at first, then soon it becomes the standard, and I no longer notice the new sound. The difference is, if I try to go back to the old wires, then I notice I've lost something.
audiobomber said:
Indeed.
As you go on improving your system, you get used to the new sound.
Also, your "standard" gets higher.
You know how your music sounds and you become very picky when listening to another system.
As soon as you change something on your system you notice right away.
It may take lots of years for some to reach a good "standard", if they ever get there.
In the beginning there's usually mid-fi components and cables are a waste of time and money because on those systems they will make no difference.😀
Transparency is not enough.
Transparency indeed is not really important. I value involvement much more and the way the music presentation "grabs" you and lets you forget about everything else. You have this feeling that everything is right, just the way it suposed to be.
But, if one never searches and experiments (and knows how far it can go), how one knows this is the way it supposed to be?
It's much easier then to claim that nothing makes much difference, just to keep peace of mind and personal comfort.
But, if one never searches and experiments (and knows how far it can go), how one knows this is the way it supposed to be?
It's much easier then to claim that nothing makes much difference, just to keep peace of mind and personal comfort.
jh6you said:
At times i wish my ears were poor--it would have saved me a lot of money.But it seems like over the years my ears have become much more finacky .I pick out anything different going on in the system much too often.but i do enjoy sitting and having a good listen.
I know i am always turing other peoples stereos down when i am in there house because the sound is not that good.Gives me a headache.Mind you most of there systems are just recievers and bose speakers.Not very many people i know care much about this hobby.
audiobomber said:
I have that with girls. Well, it lasts longer than a few days, actually, but nevertheless, I think there is some undelying law of nature...😀
Jan Didden
When you talk about monster speaker wire and its size or conductivity you are really talking about increasing the damping factor to your speakers in the final analysis.
All wire has resitance and the longer and smaller the wire the greater the resistance.
High wire resistance creates low damping, and is the mortal enemy of clean uncolored sound.
It has been claimed in tests that a person cannot hear the difference in damping once a damping factor of 200 has been reached, (or 20 depending on which formula you choose to use), However for some reason I can hear and appreciate the difference.
I use double 00 gauge welding cables, at about .85/ft, where the copper is physically the same diameter as a dime for my speakers, coupled to a low impedance amp, the crown k2 which has a damping factor of 3000 in conjunction with bass crossovers wound with number 4 square, (the size of a pencil), which yields a damping of approximately 400 at the speaker terminals.
(an alternative and ideal solution would be to put an amp within 1 foot of the speaker and use standard number 14 zip cord to get optimal damping that would equal that of your chosen amp).
This particular system is so clean and dynamic I tend to prefer to listen to this instead of most of the local live bands around here... (after all they dont have the equipment to asound as good as the huge bands do)
For those who are interested here is a neet damping calculator for you to get an idea of where your own systems are as compared to the 200 claimed minimum... for wires larger than those that they list just enter the resistance per foot and it will use your entry for the calculation of damping.
Also for those purists who want their speakers to have even bass from left to right remember to size the wire for an equal damping factor on the left and the right or the sound, (especially the bass) will tend to pull toward the least damped side and color the stereo image...
so for an example if you have 4 ohm speaker system with a 3 foot run of wire from the amp to the speaker terminals, you may want an awg14 to obtain a minimum damping of 200 to that speaker, and if your second speaker is 8 feet away from the amp you would want to use an awg 10 wire on that speaker to obtain equal damping factor for your left and right speakers. Another method would be to use equal length wires but remember not to coil up the excess wire...
http://www.autohifi-world.de/fack/dampfact.htm
The attached picture is about a year old and you can see the coil and the relative size of the feed wires... Awg 00 wire runs about 85 cents a foot.
I have since found a bass driver that needs no crossover for my application and have eliminated the coil completely which took my damping to well over 2000 at the speaker terminals and wow what a difference...
Now the bass and mid bass are rediculously tight... (It rivals my brothers Marshall) I am hearing especially bass warbles and grumbles I never knew existed in the music before and i have heard these songs a million times... Also a point of interest foir me is that the bass would tend to start giving out a bit at 115 db you could just begin to hear a slight flutter.... and since I no longer need that coil for the crossover I am able to take it up to an earth shattering 125db continuous peaking at roughly 130db and no sign of flutter except for what I felt on my nose. I frankly could not go any louder as my ears were becoming numb after listening to it that loud for a few minutes...
I feel that extremely high damping and equally damping the left and right speaker is the single most important factor in obtaining exception sound quality from any speaker system... Second is a good equalizer that allows spike removal such as the beringer deq 2496 and of course you cannot beat a super low impedance fet amp for high damping and fast rise time.
All wire has resitance and the longer and smaller the wire the greater the resistance.
High wire resistance creates low damping, and is the mortal enemy of clean uncolored sound.
It has been claimed in tests that a person cannot hear the difference in damping once a damping factor of 200 has been reached, (or 20 depending on which formula you choose to use), However for some reason I can hear and appreciate the difference.
I use double 00 gauge welding cables, at about .85/ft, where the copper is physically the same diameter as a dime for my speakers, coupled to a low impedance amp, the crown k2 which has a damping factor of 3000 in conjunction with bass crossovers wound with number 4 square, (the size of a pencil), which yields a damping of approximately 400 at the speaker terminals.
(an alternative and ideal solution would be to put an amp within 1 foot of the speaker and use standard number 14 zip cord to get optimal damping that would equal that of your chosen amp).
This particular system is so clean and dynamic I tend to prefer to listen to this instead of most of the local live bands around here... (after all they dont have the equipment to asound as good as the huge bands do)
For those who are interested here is a neet damping calculator for you to get an idea of where your own systems are as compared to the 200 claimed minimum... for wires larger than those that they list just enter the resistance per foot and it will use your entry for the calculation of damping.
Also for those purists who want their speakers to have even bass from left to right remember to size the wire for an equal damping factor on the left and the right or the sound, (especially the bass) will tend to pull toward the least damped side and color the stereo image...
so for an example if you have 4 ohm speaker system with a 3 foot run of wire from the amp to the speaker terminals, you may want an awg14 to obtain a minimum damping of 200 to that speaker, and if your second speaker is 8 feet away from the amp you would want to use an awg 10 wire on that speaker to obtain equal damping factor for your left and right speakers. Another method would be to use equal length wires but remember not to coil up the excess wire...
http://www.autohifi-world.de/fack/dampfact.htm
The attached picture is about a year old and you can see the coil and the relative size of the feed wires... Awg 00 wire runs about 85 cents a foot.
I have since found a bass driver that needs no crossover for my application and have eliminated the coil completely which took my damping to well over 2000 at the speaker terminals and wow what a difference...
Now the bass and mid bass are rediculously tight... (It rivals my brothers Marshall) I am hearing especially bass warbles and grumbles I never knew existed in the music before and i have heard these songs a million times... Also a point of interest foir me is that the bass would tend to start giving out a bit at 115 db you could just begin to hear a slight flutter.... and since I no longer need that coil for the crossover I am able to take it up to an earth shattering 125db continuous peaking at roughly 130db and no sign of flutter except for what I felt on my nose. I frankly could not go any louder as my ears were becoming numb after listening to it that loud for a few minutes...
I feel that extremely high damping and equally damping the left and right speaker is the single most important factor in obtaining exception sound quality from any speaker system... Second is a good equalizer that allows spike removal such as the beringer deq 2496 and of course you cannot beat a super low impedance fet amp for high damping and fast rise time.
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