Sorry, but I don't think it's quite as simple as you claim it to be.
Right, firstly you shouldn't know which cable is which, have someone else mark and "burn in" one set of cables, such as only they know which is "burnt in" and which is not.
Then have them switch the cables over for you, listening to exactly the same piece of music for both sets of cables(on the exact same system setup, seated in the exact same place, but you knew this already, didn't you?).
Did you hear a difference....
....But then did you want to hear a difference?. Which camp was you in previous to doing the test, the "burn in" camp or the "non burn in" camp. For this test to be anything remotely close to valid, you'd have to be totally unbiased in your approach to the test(highly unlikely).
If you heard a difference, specify which pair you thought were the "burnt in" pair to your helper, were you correct?
If you were correct, ask them if they heard any difference, did they?. Was it just luck that you picked the set "you wanted" to sound "burnt in", after all there is a 50/50 chance here.
If you didn't hear any difference, maybe the cables you picked to test "don't burn in", but others do. Maybe the tides of Mother Sea were against you, the Moon may have been following an irregular orbit and offset any differences you may have come across on that particular day...
At any rate, you should be able to tell that I'm a bit of a skeptic.
Speaker cable *may* make a difference, it's possible.
But there are fundamental things that can be changed in most so called "hi-fi" systems, which will make a far more significant audible and measurable improvement than any cable. Only once you have achieved all these things, which make a *measurable improvement* to what was there previously, should you look at speaker cable.
Is it possible to achieve all these things or even to achieve only some of them to a level where they can't be improved upon..... Hmmm, personally I'm doubtful, that's why speaker cable is staying way down on my list of possible system upgrades.
Just my Tuppence....
AJinFLA said:
An immediate family member was for a time the primary acoustic designer for one of the big - really big - Ottawa area firms, studied under Lipschitz and Vanderkoy, etc., etc.. Word on the industry street was the NRC chambers went for many years with a significant calibration error affecting every product that used the facility in the design cycle. Authority doesn't imply perfection.
derf said:
I agree with you, absolutely.
derf said:
But if you don't try different cables you will never know if it makes difference or not.
You can be fortunate (like me) to try speaker cables at home without buying them.
I've stopped bothering much with speaker cables on my main system some 15 years ago, when I bough Kimber 4TC. That's what I still have today.
I have other systems, but I diy cables or just buy something cheap.
Doesn't mean I can't diy a better cable than the Kimber, it's just that I'm satisfied and I don't bother. I have tried other cables on my main system and it's always back to the Kimber.
What you describe is a single-blind test, which leaves room for the experimenter to influence the listener (consciously or not). The person swapping the cables should not know which is which, so the test is double-blind.derf said:
Sigh, reading all this i am now POSITIVE i need an amp. Too many choices. MosFET .... Chip AMp ... Class D .... Tube. I wasted 50 bucks on the Cat5 e ... SOmething tells me this. In my head. The same voices that tell me i am a mass of living blown up alien creatures hypnotised into submission and waiting to be scraped off me one by one in some weird trial that i could possibly die from. SO they can go off and smell the roses in a glorious after life that they have been denied for 75 million years.
Does that seem believable ?
Does that seem believable ?
rdf
rdf
And audiophool's delusional rambling is all the authorative factual evidence you will ever need. Perfect.
Enjoy your CD demagnetizer, Shakti stones, green markers and $100/inch cables. There is a saying. A fool and his money are easily parted. Know what I mean? Of course you do.
Cheers,
AJ
Oh yeah? Well, a co-worker whose friend is married to the sister of the guy who lives besides Kevin Bacon says word going around the neighborhood, is that your immediate family member is full of crap. So take that as an "audiophool" fact. What does that have to do with Paul Bartons explanation of audiophile delusion exactly? How is it relevant to speaker wire "burn in" and other such rubbish? Can you point me to some studies that showed this to be fact? I'm waiting.....
rdf
- correct.
And audiophool's delusional rambling is all the authorative factual evidence you will ever need. Perfect.
Enjoy your CD demagnetizer, Shakti stones, green markers and $100/inch cables. There is a saying. A fool and his money are easily parted. Know what I mean? Of course you do.
Cheers,
AJ
Mr Evil said:
Better to see these guys. http://www.scientology.org/ Its from their writ in a court session to become a religious organization. Of course if you are not 3 rd level (or whatever that was ) they will denie this at gunpoint. But all the weirdness is available to anyone who wants to look for it online. I wonder if they can identify the creators of the Shaki Stones ? Or for that matter WHo was SHitaki the Mushrooms REAL father?
No, I don't own anything approaching those items. You were arguing from authority, I gave a relevant example of a major error on the part of one you cited and cautioned (briefly) about that approach. Believe it if you want, I heard it second hand from a source with no reason to lie.
Now unsubscribing from this thread, too rec.audio for me. Thx for the chat.
rdf said:
Ya i am not helping either but it is going away from speaker wire. I will say nothing else till i have the Cat 5e hooked up and played for 2 or 3 hours before i comment on this again.
Member
Joined 2004
A good experiment would be running straight versus twisted pairs, same length. A single run of cat5 will be sufficient. You should notice a difference in sound.
MadMike et al...
I have sold audio in the past and DIY a little now. I will tell you that there is definitely a difference in cable, but perhaps for different reasons than most would suggest, but the outcomes are the same anyway..
The signal is carried by the FIELD not the conductor as such, yes electrons do move but the real result is minimizing the effects on the FIELD. Why else would there be teflon dielectric micrphone cables, etc as used in Pro applications and broadcasting? Capacitance, resistance and impedence are important and can create a filter that does affect the sound.
I have bought some cables and like others posting here have settled on something that I found enjoyable, and forgotten about them. However Cat5 cable always intriqued me and I have made some speaker cables and interconnects using it to very good effect.
Anyone in Canada with a PrincessAuto close should go into the surplus area and buy some. I bought 100' for $10(CDN or about $8USD). At that price anyone can afford the DIY Cat5 cables.
I have sold audio in the past and DIY a little now. I will tell you that there is definitely a difference in cable, but perhaps for different reasons than most would suggest, but the outcomes are the same anyway..
The signal is carried by the FIELD not the conductor as such, yes electrons do move but the real result is minimizing the effects on the FIELD. Why else would there be teflon dielectric micrphone cables, etc as used in Pro applications and broadcasting? Capacitance, resistance and impedence are important and can create a filter that does affect the sound.
I have bought some cables and like others posting here have settled on something that I found enjoyable, and forgotten about them. However Cat5 cable always intriqued me and I have made some speaker cables and interconnects using it to very good effect.
Anyone in Canada with a PrincessAuto close should go into the surplus area and buy some. I bought 100' for $10(CDN or about $8USD). At that price anyone can afford the DIY Cat5 cables.
Re: MadMike et al...
but.... is that sound even remotely close to audible? and if so... it should be easily measured I would think
Nanook said:
but.... is that sound even remotely close to audible? and if so... it should be easily measured I would think
Audionoob...
the subjective vs objective debate has raged for years in audio, as has blind testing. I can only suggest that you ask cable manufacturers, (Mogami etc, that make Pro and Broadcast stuff)why they make cables with different dielectrics.
I'm really not looking for a mathamatical arguement, but the math can be done to calculate the Field strength based on the dielectric constants, the current and the frequency in the wire.
whether one hears a difference, believes they hear a difference or doesn't hear a difference, it simply does not matter, What matters is that you enjoy what it is that you listen to. After all it is your ears and brain that make the final step in enjoying any music, be it reproduced or live
the subjective vs objective debate has raged for years in audio, as has blind testing. I can only suggest that you ask cable manufacturers, (Mogami etc, that make Pro and Broadcast stuff)why they make cables with different dielectrics.
I'm really not looking for a mathamatical arguement, but the math can be done to calculate the Field strength based on the dielectric constants, the current and the frequency in the wire.
whether one hears a difference, believes they hear a difference or doesn't hear a difference, it simply does not matter, What matters is that you enjoy what it is that you listen to. After all it is your ears and brain that make the final step in enjoying any music, be it reproduced or live
I could not have said it better myself-=-=-=-
Audiophilenoob said:
You may have a point there. I think that a large proportion of the effect of enclosure stuffing comes from the fact that it damps the vibration of the cabling inside the box. Those vibrations, by nature, are much higher (higher pressure) inside than outside, and would have a relatively large effect on the cross-latticing in the copper. Sure, the cable running from speaker to amp also is exposed to vibrations, but the level is much, much less.
As always in these cases, most of the secondary effects are everywhere, but the art in audio is to find theose that will be the most influencial, and tweak those.
In extreme cases of cross-latticing however, it may help to run your cables over a well-damping carpet rather than on bare tiles or wood.
Jan Didden
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