Hi I am new to the forms and looking for some advice and help with a unique project. I am helping with the design of a sound system that we will build to provide the music for firework shows (Pyromusicals). This is unique because this application does not have many of the limitations of an outdoors concert and I have not been able to find any information as to the best setup to use for Pyromusicals. We are starting from scratch, basically, and would like the best bang for our buck.
The owner of the fireworks company has become a dealer for Eminence Speakers to get the best price and is planing on getting amps from QSC.
He has already purchased speakers from Eminence with out much thought on the cabinets for them.
He has two HF drivers with horns, APT200s and PSD3006-8 which as far as I know just need a box of any size because they have horns. The subs he got are KAPPA PRO15s and KILOMAX PRO-18A,which as far as I can tell are best suited for vented enclosures and may not be the best for our setup. At this time we are considering changing the sub choice to single 15 inch sub horns and the subs he purchased will be traded in or sold.
The owners original expectations where to cover the hole hearing spectrum (20-20Khz). After a few reality checks on outdoor system performance we have have lowered our expectations to a more reasonable 40 to 50hz on the low end and as high as we can get out of the HF drivers he has.
Right now we need to come up with the best sub-woofer for our application and spec out power requirements so we can order the amps.
If we consider the following parameters for this project I am thinking we should go with some horn loaded 15”subs. At first I mentioned the LAB15 speaker by Eminence only to come to the realization half an hour later that there has been a box designed for this speaker yet like the LAB12 speaker. So I am back to ground zero trying to find a tried and tested design that we can build that best meets our requirements. At this point I am thinking a folded tapped horn for the LAB 15s. What do you think?
The parameters for this project include the following;
The venues will be about 500 -1000 people in a football field size outdoors setting.
No stage so we don't have to worry about rear consolation.
We are thinking about 4 stacks of speakers spaced out on the ground in front of the audience and very close to them. Within 50 feet.
The size of the subs are not a big consideration where as we will already have trucks and crew their to set up the fireworks.
The power will come from QSC amps power by rented generators.
I am looking at try amplification with a EQ or DSP for crossover settings.
Are hope is to get better than 100DB at 50 to 100 feet across 40 to 15K Hz.
As simple design as we can get for DIY.
Using horn extensions for the larger shows.
Need to use Eminence speakers.
Needs to be a tried and tested design. I can not experiment with the owners money but if it is a tested design than the sky's the limit.
Any ideas for the DIY subs? Let me know if I left out any relevant information. Andy
The owner of the fireworks company has become a dealer for Eminence Speakers to get the best price and is planing on getting amps from QSC.
He has already purchased speakers from Eminence with out much thought on the cabinets for them.
He has two HF drivers with horns, APT200s and PSD3006-8 which as far as I know just need a box of any size because they have horns. The subs he got are KAPPA PRO15s and KILOMAX PRO-18A,which as far as I can tell are best suited for vented enclosures and may not be the best for our setup. At this time we are considering changing the sub choice to single 15 inch sub horns and the subs he purchased will be traded in or sold.
The owners original expectations where to cover the hole hearing spectrum (20-20Khz). After a few reality checks on outdoor system performance we have have lowered our expectations to a more reasonable 40 to 50hz on the low end and as high as we can get out of the HF drivers he has.
Right now we need to come up with the best sub-woofer for our application and spec out power requirements so we can order the amps.
If we consider the following parameters for this project I am thinking we should go with some horn loaded 15”subs. At first I mentioned the LAB15 speaker by Eminence only to come to the realization half an hour later that there has been a box designed for this speaker yet like the LAB12 speaker. So I am back to ground zero trying to find a tried and tested design that we can build that best meets our requirements. At this point I am thinking a folded tapped horn for the LAB 15s. What do you think?
The parameters for this project include the following;
The venues will be about 500 -1000 people in a football field size outdoors setting.
No stage so we don't have to worry about rear consolation.
We are thinking about 4 stacks of speakers spaced out on the ground in front of the audience and very close to them. Within 50 feet.
The size of the subs are not a big consideration where as we will already have trucks and crew their to set up the fireworks.
The power will come from QSC amps power by rented generators.
I am looking at try amplification with a EQ or DSP for crossover settings.
Are hope is to get better than 100DB at 50 to 100 feet across 40 to 15K Hz.
As simple design as we can get for DIY.
Using horn extensions for the larger shows.
Need to use Eminence speakers.
Needs to be a tried and tested design. I can not experiment with the owners money but if it is a tested design than the sky's the limit.
Any ideas for the DIY subs? Let me know if I left out any relevant information. Andy
I'm sure Bill would have some experience here
http://billfitzmaurice.net/
Check out his DIY designs. Post in his forums too.
http://billfitzmaurice.net/
Check out his DIY designs. Post in his forums too.
Take a look at these threads:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/127908-jbells-set-four-tapped-horns.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/170771-single-sheet-th-challenge.html
Tapped horns using the Eminence 3015LF would be a cost-effective solution for the low end. These are tried and true solutions. You need to work on your project definition as to acoustic output power, transport size/weight, and you'll need something to cover the range from the tapped horn-or other subwoofer-to the high frequency horn.
Regards,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/127908-jbells-set-four-tapped-horns.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/170771-single-sheet-th-challenge.html
Tapped horns using the Eminence 3015LF would be a cost-effective solution for the low end. These are tried and true solutions. You need to work on your project definition as to acoustic output power, transport size/weight, and you'll need something to cover the range from the tapped horn-or other subwoofer-to the high frequency horn.
Regards,
Pretty sure that 40hz isn't going to cut it....
Here's Tom's recording.
Danley Sound Labs - Technical Downloads
3015lf in tapped horn is a good thought though.... I did 114db 40hz sine wave at 30feet with only 50watts per cab on my big cabinet.
Here's Tom's recording.
Danley Sound Labs - Technical Downloads
3015lf in tapped horn is a good thought though.... I did 114db 40hz sine wave at 30feet with only 50watts per cab on my big cabinet.
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Hi jbell,
I hope they are just trying to augment an actual fireworks performance. To get to realistic levels per the Danley's recordings, you might be looking at the Matterhorn.
Regards,
you're right... I went back and double checked, and I think I misread the original post. I thought they were trying to reproduce fireworks, not just music to coordinate with fireworks...
In that case, yea should be easy and relatively cheap to accomplish with all eminence stuff.
Yes the sound system would be to provide the music for the shows. In front of an audience with the fireworks about 500 feet behind. We would like for them to fell the bass but it is not a prerequisite. The fireworks are loud so the music will have to loud to but I am not trying to drowned them out. We have been renting systems, some good some bad. We are looking at maximizing a system for Pyromusicals and having more control over the sound reproduction. Thanks Andy
Cool. Then some of the guys here should be able to help. Warning, to really go low, you need a BIG horn. Like 24 feet across. But some of the bass horn guys here can help you keep it more compact.
BTW, how do you coordinate the show and the music? Computer? I worked sound for a few of these years ago and it was reel-to-reel tape with music on one track and the cue track on the other. Even once had to send the cue track via radio out to a barge in the middle of the river in Jacksonville, Florida. Fun!
BTW, how do you coordinate the show and the music? Computer? I worked sound for a few of these years ago and it was reel-to-reel tape with music on one track and the cue track on the other. Even once had to send the cue track via radio out to a barge in the middle of the river in Jacksonville, Florida. Fun!
I'd seriously look at these: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/127908-jbells-set-four-tapped-horns.html (thanks tb46)
A set of four or more ought to do you just fine. They'll take up some truck space, for sure, but will be fast to set up. Easy to build, too.
.
A set of four or more ought to do you just fine. They'll take up some truck space, for sure, but will be fast to set up. Easy to build, too.
.
jbell's stadium horns
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/127908-jbells-set-four-tapped-horns-4.html
Post #38
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/127908-jbells-set-four-tapped-horns-4.html
Post #38
As long as it's the LF version of the kappa pro, it'll work. However, the 3015lf is still the better choice.
My personal PA is the ss15 subs and hs12 tops. The ss15 sub is louder than the big box(stadium horn), but doesn't play as deep. The big box is 2 sheets of 3/4" ply for about a 150lb box. The ss15 is a single sheet of 1/2" ply so it's a 50lb box. Keep that in mind when looking at either of these designs.
My hs12 tops are a horn loaded beta 12a-2, with a 16 ohm selenium 220 and dayton waveguide. Works really well.
If you were to build 4 tops and 4 subs, you'd have things well in hand. You'll need dsp for highpass/crossover/eq/limiting for using qsc amps. (like a driverack or dcx2496) Crown xti has all of that built in.
BTW, flare extensions ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WORK with tapped horns, only front loaded horns.
My personal PA is the ss15 subs and hs12 tops. The ss15 sub is louder than the big box(stadium horn), but doesn't play as deep. The big box is 2 sheets of 3/4" ply for about a 150lb box. The ss15 is a single sheet of 1/2" ply so it's a 50lb box. Keep that in mind when looking at either of these designs.
My hs12 tops are a horn loaded beta 12a-2, with a 16 ohm selenium 220 and dayton waveguide. Works really well.
If you were to build 4 tops and 4 subs, you'd have things well in hand. You'll need dsp for highpass/crossover/eq/limiting for using qsc amps. (like a driverack or dcx2496) Crown xti has all of that built in.
BTW, flare extensions ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WORK with tapped horns, only front loaded horns.
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Front loaded horns work well when used in multiples. This increases the bass depth when large stacks are used. No horn extensions are necessary. The increased bandwidth comes from coupling the boxes together.
The advantage of the tapped horn enclosure is that the bass has depth when used in small numbers. This means that using tapped horns would allow better scalability of the system which is one of 4pyros requirements.
Definitely go with the 3015lf if using Eminence drivers in a TH, as this driver is far more efficient in a tapped horn than the alternatives. Using the Kappa Pro would probably loose you a couple of dB at 50hz
The advantage of the tapped horn enclosure is that the bass has depth when used in small numbers. This means that using tapped horns would allow better scalability of the system which is one of 4pyros requirements.
Definitely go with the 3015lf if using Eminence drivers in a TH, as this driver is far more efficient in a tapped horn than the alternatives. Using the Kappa Pro would probably loose you a couple of dB at 50hz
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