Why fool around? 3.5" coaxial transmission line pumped full of nitrogen to keep it dry. Works for nearly every high power transmitter on eath that isn't using either waveguide or 6".... If I can't see it on a spectrum analyzer it doesn't exist. I use heavy zip cord. Doc
John Allen is a Pro Sound Consultant with Movie Theater installation experience - he has some cable high frequency loss measurements - suggests "poor man's" star quad can be had at the local electrical supply warehouse: 16 or 14-3 G house wiring is probably most available and should be fine for most home installations - his use of 10-3 G was for 150' cable length
http://www.hps4000.com/pages/spksamps/speaker_wire.pdf
http://www.hps4000.com/pages/spksamps/speaker_wire.pdf
Copper prices are nutz. I just did a lot of rewiring here, it was expensive. And yes, AFAIK, #14 is minimum. I've not seen any 16 gauge.
oops, I found smaller stuff at Industrial suppliers - for equipment internal wiring?
so it does look like you can only get the bigger stuff for residential wiring - 4x 14 AWG is a little excessive for my apt with no room dimension exceeding 15'
so it does look like you can only get the bigger stuff for residential wiring - 4x 14 AWG is a little excessive for my apt with no room dimension exceeding 15'
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Conclusions....
Folks,
Time to wind this down...
We have:
1) People who inaccurately claim that lowest DCR is what makes a good speaker cable (I guess they all wire their speakers with 0 Gauge wire).
2) People who inaccurately claim that the cheapest wire is best (I guess they all wire their speakers with 20 Gauge bell wire).
3) People who inaccurately claim that only lumped LCR parameters matter for speaker cables (I cannot guess what they all wire their speakers with, as there seems to be little agreement on which LCR combination is best, some fear too much capacitance, others are scared by a smidgen of inductance).
4) People who accurately claim that they don't really have any reliable evidence as to what is important but are either happy to trust their ears or are trying to make things more predictable using a range of methods.
5) A confounded majority, who still do not know what to buy.
Excellent going folks.
May I recommend to the people who fall under "5" to simply head over to TNT-Audio.com and study the various recipes for Cat-5 based speaker cables?
The results are a choice of lumped LCR Parameters, approaches to reducing RFI sensitivity different levels of DCR, if you get one roll of cable you can probably build all the different versions DIY and not just "Do It Yourself", but also LIY (Listen to It Yourself).
I would suggest that as a result afterwards you will know by far more first hand about cables than anything you can derive from this long and futile thread.
We'll, I'm outtahere.
TGIF
Ciao T
Folks,
Time to wind this down...
We have:
1) People who inaccurately claim that lowest DCR is what makes a good speaker cable (I guess they all wire their speakers with 0 Gauge wire).
2) People who inaccurately claim that the cheapest wire is best (I guess they all wire their speakers with 20 Gauge bell wire).
3) People who inaccurately claim that only lumped LCR parameters matter for speaker cables (I cannot guess what they all wire their speakers with, as there seems to be little agreement on which LCR combination is best, some fear too much capacitance, others are scared by a smidgen of inductance).
4) People who accurately claim that they don't really have any reliable evidence as to what is important but are either happy to trust their ears or are trying to make things more predictable using a range of methods.
5) A confounded majority, who still do not know what to buy.
Excellent going folks.
May I recommend to the people who fall under "5" to simply head over to TNT-Audio.com and study the various recipes for Cat-5 based speaker cables?
The results are a choice of lumped LCR Parameters, approaches to reducing RFI sensitivity different levels of DCR, if you get one roll of cable you can probably build all the different versions DIY and not just "Do It Yourself", but also LIY (Listen to It Yourself).
I would suggest that as a result afterwards you will know by far more first hand about cables than anything you can derive from this long and futile thread.
We'll, I'm outtahere.
TGIF
Ciao T
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Lol, nice summation ThorstenL. 🙂
I guess one way of interpreting this would be to recommend something a little better than the worst pos but not anything more expensive than necessary? (If people can't even agree on there actually beeing a difference then the actual audiable difference is probably not all that dramatic?)
I've seen recommendations for 1.5-2.5mm^2 installation wiring, either 2x1 or2x2. 2x2 2.5mm^2 being preferred but 2x1 1.5mm^2 beeing good enough for most people.
As seen in this thread multistranded 12AWG is also a popular recommendation.
The link provided by jcx would imho suggest solid core is the way to go but multistranded wiring will be good enough if you prefer cables that are flexible. 12-14AWG seem to be good enough with 12AWG being preferred mostly because bigger is supposedly better, at least for long runs of cable.
To put it simple, go for "el-cheapo" wiring but stay away from the worst pos.
I don't think anyone has actually given any solid numbers for "good wiring"?
Everything seems pretty vague.
Flame suit on...
I guess one way of interpreting this would be to recommend something a little better than the worst pos but not anything more expensive than necessary? (If people can't even agree on there actually beeing a difference then the actual audiable difference is probably not all that dramatic?)
I've seen recommendations for 1.5-2.5mm^2 installation wiring, either 2x1 or2x2. 2x2 2.5mm^2 being preferred but 2x1 1.5mm^2 beeing good enough for most people.
As seen in this thread multistranded 12AWG is also a popular recommendation.
The link provided by jcx would imho suggest solid core is the way to go but multistranded wiring will be good enough if you prefer cables that are flexible. 12-14AWG seem to be good enough with 12AWG being preferred mostly because bigger is supposedly better, at least for long runs of cable.
To put it simple, go for "el-cheapo" wiring but stay away from the worst pos.
I don't think anyone has actually given any solid numbers for "good wiring"?
Everything seems pretty vague.
Flame suit on...
To put it in perspective, ten feet (about 3m) of 12AWG extension cord will have a resistance of about 0.03-0.035 ohm round-trip. 14AWG will be closer to 0.05 ohm. For speakers that are not pathological (99.9% of them), either will work fine, causing less than 0.1dB of frequency response variation and power losses well below audibility. If you use one of the 0.1% of speakers with incompetently designed crossovers having impedance dips below one ohm, you'll need to go thicker or (preferably) shorter.
Call that a solid number.😀
Well John Allen DID measure a difference of 5dB @ 20Khz on solid vs stranded.
(thanks for the link JCX).
But that was over, what? 150ft or more? Would that scale to a ~0.4dB difference on my 10ft cables? Might be noticeable in an A/B test. Except that I can't hear that high.
That's exactly what I'm talking about SY. Wiring shouldn't be a band-aid for poor matching in the rest om your set-up.
A bird sneezing in the yard will probably be just as bad as a 0.02ohm difference in the cable.
A good wire is a wire that doesn't compromise the sound in a audiable way.
So far no-one has actually prooven I need a exotic high-tech cable for it to be audiably transparent.
Please translate all the fancy measurements inte real world application examples where it actually matters.
So far people have been reporting problems with expensive "audiophile" cables but not with the cheap stuff?
Now, I love a pretty cable as much as the next person but pimping a piece of installation wiring won't cost you more than a $1 or two?
I'm sorry if some people find me offensive now but really, I'm just looking for answers.
I'm not a fanatic in any way, show me a real difference that I can hear and I'll gladly join the exotic cables camp.
A bird sneezing in the yard will probably be just as bad as a 0.02ohm difference in the cable.
A good wire is a wire that doesn't compromise the sound in a audiable way.
So far no-one has actually prooven I need a exotic high-tech cable for it to be audiably transparent.
Please translate all the fancy measurements inte real world application examples where it actually matters.
So far people have been reporting problems with expensive "audiophile" cables but not with the cheap stuff?
Now, I love a pretty cable as much as the next person but pimping a piece of installation wiring won't cost you more than a $1 or two?
I'm sorry if some people find me offensive now but really, I'm just looking for answers.
I'm not a fanatic in any way, show me a real difference that I can hear and I'll gladly join the exotic cables camp.
Only you can decide what you will consider to be 'audiably transparent' and by the same toke you won't be able to credibly determine what I can or cannot audibly detect.
I'm running lengths of over 50ft to my HT rear channels, so re, John Allen, that would be a rolloff of ~2db at 20khz. And don't forget the attendant phase shift. Like I said - a broad spectral tilt downward at the high end. No reason to turn it into a mystery.
I'm running lengths of over 50ft to my HT rear channels, so re, John Allen, that would be a rolloff of ~2db at 20khz. And don't forget the attendant phase shift. Like I said - a broad spectral tilt downward at the high end. No reason to turn it into a mystery.
Why didn't you locate the rear channel amps beside their speakers and then you could use 600mm speaker cables and >50' interconnects. Two twisted pairs from a CAT5 will cost ~£1 (~$1.50)
Hi,
I think it is a reasonable fair summary.
There is enough posted that is solid to reject:
"Lowest DCR is best"
"Lowest cost is best"
"Lumped LCR is all that matters"
I would note that all the above concepts have been advanced in this thread and all repeatedly, all ex-cathedra and with claims they represent science fact...
There has been some debate around what one might consider secondary, but material issues, however I have not really seen claims like "unless the speakerwire is genuine unobtanium, insulatade with immaginum and processed only by vestal virgins it is useless as speaker cable".
So my take on the fourth is also correct, from where I stand. I can also not fail to note that many more read this thread than post. And I may be wrong, but I feel many will be more confused by this thread than informed, mostly because of the false representations rendered by those claiming to take the scientific view (but instead repeat hearsay and prejudice).
The final lines are indeed an opinion, namely my opinion that carrying out a few inexpensive experiments can teach us all individually more more than reading this thread and several others, thousands of pages of references, pulse tests by Mr. X, measurements on different wires by Mr. Y and claims that all sounds the same disregardless by Mr. Z.
And now it is Friday, I bid you a good day gentlemen to engage in, how shall we say, more exciting pursuits...
Ciao T
I think it is a reasonable fair summary.
There is enough posted that is solid to reject:
"Lowest DCR is best"
"Lowest cost is best"
"Lumped LCR is all that matters"
I would note that all the above concepts have been advanced in this thread and all repeatedly, all ex-cathedra and with claims they represent science fact...
There has been some debate around what one might consider secondary, but material issues, however I have not really seen claims like "unless the speakerwire is genuine unobtanium, insulatade with immaginum and processed only by vestal virgins it is useless as speaker cable".
So my take on the fourth is also correct, from where I stand. I can also not fail to note that many more read this thread than post. And I may be wrong, but I feel many will be more confused by this thread than informed, mostly because of the false representations rendered by those claiming to take the scientific view (but instead repeat hearsay and prejudice).
The final lines are indeed an opinion, namely my opinion that carrying out a few inexpensive experiments can teach us all individually more more than reading this thread and several others, thousands of pages of references, pulse tests by Mr. X, measurements on different wires by Mr. Y and claims that all sounds the same disregardless by Mr. Z.
And now it is Friday, I bid you a good day gentlemen to engage in, how shall we say, more exciting pursuits...
Ciao T
One of the limitations of my HT receiver is that it doesn't have a distributed power amplifier architecture😉
Actually, maybe the missing 'brightness' I am hearing with my 12-2 fire alarm wire is the absence of our old friend interstrand rectification (Could *gasp!* - say it ain't so! THAT be was John Allen was responding to when he thought the solid core was smoother?), with a little skin effect thrown in😀
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Thorsten, please let me draw my own conclusions.
Some of your assertions, such as your earlier statement that DCR for cable lower than 1/10th of speaker impedance is good enough, are disputed by others, latest by John Allen's paper. In a remarkeable twist you then state that "there is enough posted that it is solid to reject lowest DCR is best".
The simple truth is: all other things being equal, lower DCR for cable is better. There is a diminishing return on investment below a certain value, true, but the cable you have advocated is way above the optimum i.m.h.o.
Some of your assertions, such as your earlier statement that DCR for cable lower than 1/10th of speaker impedance is good enough, are disputed by others, latest by John Allen's paper. In a remarkeable twist you then state that "there is enough posted that it is solid to reject lowest DCR is best".
The simple truth is: all other things being equal, lower DCR for cable is better. There is a diminishing return on investment below a certain value, true, but the cable you have advocated is way above the optimum i.m.h.o.
You oversimplify our discussion, either that or I don't know which claims you are refering too. Rather than guess, please show a claim where the analysis of an electrical circuit and the propagation of signals in wire was used as evidence of (in)audibility. I saw false claims that are provably false in the same sense as someone claiming to have speaker wires where the signal propagates at 10c.
Lot of reasonable summaries here. This thread will be a reference in many ways, both for specialists and ordinary people.
Because we are in a DIY thread, i will add:
- If you design your own enclosures, take good care of your filters, in order to get a near flat impedance curve in the audio bandwidth. (motional and self compensation of the loudspeakers).
- If you build your own amplifier, take good care of his stability and performance on capacitive loads. Look and Work for good slew rate.
Wire diameters will mostly be a matter of damping factor ( precision in low frequencies). The larger, the better, in *reasonable* sizes. (12AWG is largely enough)
It is a reasonable position to focus on RLC of cables, and forget about anything else.
Take care the wires to be well isolated against humidity for long time use and well tightened. Keep the contacts clean, good and secure.
Never read listening tests of wires in reviews. May-be some people can hear very slight differences between cables, it all but sure that those differences will apply to your system the same way.
Never buy expensive loudspeakers cables from so calling audio wiring specialists who had dedicated their life to that mysterious science.
If you need to make a difference in the way your system sound, better look at the two sides around your wires. ;-)
Listen to music and forget the cable.
I hope everybody will agree ?
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As someone who's read the entire thread with interest but without posting, I find your last two posts condescending and improper. There have been a lot of positions put forth, but you've chosen to take some of them, make caricatures of them and then attack the strawman you've created to advance your personal opinion.
It's fine that you disagree with many of the others here, but don't use fallacious logic to explain to us "pleebs" how the thread is between the incorrect masses claiming extremes and those that agree with you.
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