Yes there is scientific evidence,one major argument would be the fact that silver is the best thermally conductive metal ever.
Agreed, but that by itself does not make even the basis for an argument of it's interaction in an audio circuit.
Twenty years of experience may not count to you as being scientific but any metal,any alloy has got a sonic footprint all of it's own.
Twenty years experience as what? As a theoretical metalurgist? An impassioned audiophile? An electrical engineeer? All of the above?
When asked for evidence, throwing ambiguous credentials in the place of is not impressive.
2 hours of blind A/B testing on unfamiliar equipment, music and environment do not constitute a completely valid experiment - no iffs or buts.
Beliefs are not the subject at hand here, and experiences and observations are, and by some very well experienced hands (ears) present here - rather more so than yours, I venture.
My original point being that the difference is sonically undetectable. I see that you are another to throw your "well experienced hands" in lieu of presenting any factual information.
Frank I totally agree, and further add that substrates, enclosures and dielectrics impart further sonics.
Explain how this makes a difference. Provide examples. Provide voltage references, dielectric constants, signal attenuation effects. Contrary to what it appears that some people on this board would believe, there is no voodoo to audio engineering.
What is your real name, and what is your audio experience ?.
What does my name or audio experience have to do with anything? I'm attempting to have a discussion of factual information. Facts pay no heed to experience or background. If someone can factually and scientifically (read: non-subjectively) demonstrate how in a practical audio circuit, solder composition can cause noticeable sonic change, I'm all ears.
Agreed, but that by itself does not make even the basis for an argument of it's interaction in an audio circuit.
Twenty years of experience may not count to you as being scientific but any metal,any alloy has got a sonic footprint all of it's own.
Twenty years experience as what? As a theoretical metalurgist? An impassioned audiophile? An electrical engineeer? All of the above?
When asked for evidence, throwing ambiguous credentials in the place of is not impressive.
2 hours of blind A/B testing on unfamiliar equipment, music and environment do not constitute a completely valid experiment - no iffs or buts.
Beliefs are not the subject at hand here, and experiences and observations are, and by some very well experienced hands (ears) present here - rather more so than yours, I venture.
My original point being that the difference is sonically undetectable. I see that you are another to throw your "well experienced hands" in lieu of presenting any factual information.
Frank I totally agree, and further add that substrates, enclosures and dielectrics impart further sonics.
Explain how this makes a difference. Provide examples. Provide voltage references, dielectric constants, signal attenuation effects. Contrary to what it appears that some people on this board would believe, there is no voodoo to audio engineering.
What is your real name, and what is your audio experience ?.
What does my name or audio experience have to do with anything? I'm attempting to have a discussion of factual information. Facts pay no heed to experience or background. If someone can factually and scientifically (read: non-subjectively) demonstrate how in a practical audio circuit, solder composition can cause noticeable sonic change, I'm all ears.
Re: Phred?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann
Gee I guess that the price of a fast food meal and the trouble of finding a local Radio Shack is TOO MUCH TROUBLE....
http://www.radioshack.com/product.a...t_id=64-026
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rodd Yamashita
The solder from Radio Shack of Fred's linkfdegrove said:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Fred Dieckmann
Gee I guess that the price of a fast food meal and the trouble of finding a local Radio Shack is TOO MUCH TROUBLE....
http://www.radioshack.com/product.a...t_id=64-026
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rodd Yamashita
AND THEN SOME.
Hi ,
As if any of the above would make any difference?
Can you or anyone else tell me and prove scientifically no sonic or chemical differences exist??
This of course is subjective but to my mind easily repeatable.
No science so badly documented as the science of audio and as you should know it is not an absolute science.
The rest are not my lines I believe,so I'll leave that the author to defend.
Ciao😉 😉
Hi ,
As if any of the above would make any difference?
Can you or anyone else tell me and prove scientifically no sonic or chemical differences exist??
This of course is subjective but to my mind easily repeatable.
No science so badly documented as the science of audio and as you should know it is not an absolute science.
The rest are not my lines I believe,so I'll leave that the author to defend.
Ciao😉 😉
SOLDER.
Hi Rodd,
http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F005%5F006%5F001%5F000&Page=1
Quite likely a decent range of solders and accessories sourced from a major US supplier but Radio Shack is no longer distributed in Europe so... I can't tell.
Cheers,😉
Hi Rodd,
http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F005%5F006%5F001%5F000&Page=1
Quite likely a decent range of solders and accessories sourced from a major US supplier but Radio Shack is no longer distributed in Europe so... I can't tell.
Cheers,😉
Can you or anyone else tell me and prove scientifically no sonic or chemical differences exist??
Clearly there are chemical differences -- that's the basis for what we're discussing. That and whether they have an audible effects.
Just to make for a very simple example: If we believe in the Seebeck constants listed in the early part of this thread (and if you look back, since I've already made note of this before), then we can see that at a 100 deg C junction, we get a thermoelectric potential of around .5mV for tin-lead solder to copper. Pure silver would give us around .05mV. Any device in an audio circuit that has junction temperatures approaching 100 deg C is unlikely to be either a low voltage or sensitivity in the area that .45mV is going to make a noteworthy difference.
No science so badly documented as the science of audio and as you should know it is not an absolute science.
I am of the mind that electronic circuits, and subsequently the audio they produce, can be modelled scientifically and mathematically with extremely accurate results.
Clearly there are chemical differences -- that's the basis for what we're discussing. That and whether they have an audible effects.
Just to make for a very simple example: If we believe in the Seebeck constants listed in the early part of this thread (and if you look back, since I've already made note of this before), then we can see that at a 100 deg C junction, we get a thermoelectric potential of around .5mV for tin-lead solder to copper. Pure silver would give us around .05mV. Any device in an audio circuit that has junction temperatures approaching 100 deg C is unlikely to be either a low voltage or sensitivity in the area that .45mV is going to make a noteworthy difference.
No science so badly documented as the science of audio and as you should know it is not an absolute science.
I am of the mind that electronic circuits, and subsequently the audio they produce, can be modelled scientifically and mathematically with extremely accurate results.
schmad said:
Can you prove to us that it doesn't make a difference (provide examples and facts)? Or is it only your subjective opinion? Otherwise as a Moderator I have to advise you that your further discussion is pointless.
Can you prove to us that it doesn't make a difference (provide examples and facts)? Or is it only your subjective opinion?
See my previous post. I am making a point, we are working towards proof one way or another.
Otherwise as a Moderator I have to advise you that your further discussion is pointless.
I am discussing the topic at hand and presenting my ideas. If you're threatening censure because you disagree with my ideas, then you are defeating the purpose of this board. Otherwise, as a User, I have to advise you that your point is pointless.
See my previous post. I am making a point, we are working towards proof one way or another.
Otherwise as a Moderator I have to advise you that your further discussion is pointless.
I am discussing the topic at hand and presenting my ideas. If you're threatening censure because you disagree with my ideas, then you are defeating the purpose of this board. Otherwise, as a User, I have to advise you that your point is pointless.
schmad said:
I didn't present my point yet and I believe that good advice never hurt anybody.
I also don't see any ideas coming from your side, you constantly negate other people ideas.
I didn't present my point yet and I believe that good advice never hurt anybody.
Well then please, by all means, present your point.
I also don't see any ideas coming from your side, you constantly negate other people ideas.
Would you care to share with me (and provide citation) where I've supposedly done that. Clearly, I am in disagreement with some of the people in this thread about the audible effects of solder composition. I'm trying to make a non-subjective case and provide some rationale for my ideas. I've seen little of the same from those who disagree with me. Am I not allowed to make my case?
Well then please, by all means, present your point.
I also don't see any ideas coming from your side, you constantly negate other people ideas.
Would you care to share with me (and provide citation) where I've supposedly done that. Clearly, I am in disagreement with some of the people in this thread about the audible effects of solder composition. I'm trying to make a non-subjective case and provide some rationale for my ideas. I've seen little of the same from those who disagree with me. Am I not allowed to make my case?
schmad said:
I think everybody involved is well aware of your case, but by all means, feel free to continue.😉
schmad said:
My point is that I have no idea what is going on inside a solder joint and I never tried to compare the sound of different alloys. However, having experimenting with resistors, capacitors and different kind of plugs and binding posts, I assume that it may be also a case with a solder. I've been always using better brands like Wonder Solder and currently Cardass (only because I got a good deal from Parts Connections🙂).
Did you ever try to listen to different alloys?
My point is that I have no idea what is going on inside a solder joint and I never tried to compare the sound of different alloys. However, having experimenting with resistors, capacitors and different kind of plugs and binding posts, I assume that it may be also a case with a solder.
Wouldn't you like to know what makes a certain kind of capacitor or resistor sound different?
Did you ever try to listen to different alloys?
No, I have never sat down and done tests with all else being equal other than the solder alloy used. Were I able to produce such a setup, I'd need some pretty elaborate equipment to measure the differences, given that they're going to be in the range of uV in most applications. My Fluke 89 Model IV just isn't going to cut it for that. I have a TDS 3052 that's arguably within capability to detect said changes, but at those levels, it'd be pretty difficult to pinpoint to the solder causing the changes.
Now one could ask -- how about just "listening" to see if you hear the differences? Sure -- I might hear some differences between two units. But the likelyhood of what I'm hearing have anything to do with the solder isn't sufficiently high in my opinion to undertake such a test.
Out of curiosity, has anyone reading this thread had two nearly identical setups, the only difference being the solder and done any measurements? I imagine it'd be hard to reproduce, because even slight differences in trace impedance could easily produce enough difference by itself to negate the effects of the solder.
Wouldn't you like to know what makes a certain kind of capacitor or resistor sound different?
Did you ever try to listen to different alloys?
No, I have never sat down and done tests with all else being equal other than the solder alloy used. Were I able to produce such a setup, I'd need some pretty elaborate equipment to measure the differences, given that they're going to be in the range of uV in most applications. My Fluke 89 Model IV just isn't going to cut it for that. I have a TDS 3052 that's arguably within capability to detect said changes, but at those levels, it'd be pretty difficult to pinpoint to the solder causing the changes.
Now one could ask -- how about just "listening" to see if you hear the differences? Sure -- I might hear some differences between two units. But the likelyhood of what I'm hearing have anything to do with the solder isn't sufficiently high in my opinion to undertake such a test.
Out of curiosity, has anyone reading this thread had two nearly identical setups, the only difference being the solder and done any measurements? I imagine it'd be hard to reproduce, because even slight differences in trace impedance could easily produce enough difference by itself to negate the effects of the solder.
schmad said:
Not really, I'm not in a business of making them, but using.😉
Your approach reminds me of one other fella, also from CA, who claims to be Zen hedonist. This thread here might be a good read for you: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6031&highlight=skinning+capacitors:
Not really, I'm not in a business of making them, but using.
Fair enough.
Your approach reminds me of one other fella, also from CA, who claims to be Zen hedonist. This thread here might be a good read for you
Took a look at it -- thanks. I'm not a Zen hedonist at all, in fact probably quite the opposite. I'm amazed at how much discussion the original subject of that thread, being whether or not the plastic wrappers on caps make any difference, generated.
Fair enough.
Your approach reminds me of one other fella, also from CA, who claims to be Zen hedonist. This thread here might be a good read for you
Took a look at it -- thanks. I'm not a Zen hedonist at all, in fact probably quite the opposite. I'm amazed at how much discussion the original subject of that thread, being whether or not the plastic wrappers on caps make any difference, generated.
This is inverted logic.
It should be up to the protagonist to prove a point.
There are a million and one things that I can't prove don't happen
expectation
"They're all very different chemically so,yes,I expect them to sound diferently as well."
I think this a very near to explain
an altered listening impression,
caused by a change we have made to the circumstances.
I have in another thread somewhere called this mechanism
Justification of Effort
We do not want to do things in vain,
wheather this is a change in a circuit
or to spend money.
Suppose a guy buy a new preamplifier for 999$
instead of his old 99$.
And a friend ask him how it sounds.
If he was to say: "It is no difference"
that would make the new buy seem a waste of money.
That is how we humans function.
We expect to see some result of what we do.
So we are in a special state of mind,
that longs to see a change, caused by our action.
As I mentioned earlier the final impression of our hearing
can not be seen isolated from other things in our brain
as our brain work in an associative way.
halo
"They're all very different chemically so,yes,I expect them to sound diferently as well."
I think this a very near to explain
an altered listening impression,
caused by a change we have made to the circumstances.
I have in another thread somewhere called this mechanism
Justification of Effort
We do not want to do things in vain,
wheather this is a change in a circuit
or to spend money.
Suppose a guy buy a new preamplifier for 999$
instead of his old 99$.
And a friend ask him how it sounds.
If he was to say: "It is no difference"
that would make the new buy seem a waste of money.
That is how we humans function.
We expect to see some result of what we do.
So we are in a special state of mind,
that longs to see a change, caused by our action.
As I mentioned earlier the final impression of our hearing
can not be seen isolated from other things in our brain
as our brain work in an associative way.
halo
dhaen said:
This is inverted logic.
It should be up to the protagonist to prove a point. [/QUOTE
The protagonist wasn't looking for a proof but opinion only:
So, we are after experiences, opinions and explanations of sonics when using differing solder alloys.
Eric[/
dhaen said:There are a million and one things that I can't prove don't happen
This was exactly the logic behind my point that further discussion (of that kind) was pointless. Thanks John for pointing it out.😉
Big Brother Advice.....
Peter - Thankyou for clarifying a few points to Schmad, and just a pity that it has taken so many posts for the message to get through. 🙄
Self Appointed Honorary Moderator Hat On - Schmad, you are brand new around here and you are gaining access to a number of well experienced old hands here (over 1000 posts each and 20+ years audio electronics experience), speaking of their long experiences and questions - these are deep questions from fellows who have experienced a million audio situations, and through this experience formed interesting correlations.
It is from these correlations that questions are answered, and further interesting questions are formed.
This is indeed the process of pure science.
Schmad, you are going against the grain of the spirit of this forum, and in particular this thread by harping about provability, when the context of this discussion is that some of us are saying that we are hearing differences and in addition we are seeking explanations.
"No, I have never sat down and done tests with all else being equal other than the solder alloy used."
"....But the likelyhood of what I'm hearing have anything to do with the solder isn't sufficiently high in my opinion to undertake such a test."
ROTFLMAO - Sort of shot yourself in the feet with a double 10-guage there I'd say, or painted yourself into a corner - bad either way.
I'll repeat "If you go to the trouble of trying the above experiments, I contend that given sufficiently good replay gear that you will hear differences, provided that you approach with an open mind."
"What is your real name, and what is your audio experience ?."
That meant what should we call you rather than talking to a mr nobody - the other sincere guys here sign off with a name, as is polite in society.
It is also a polite question as to your level of experience and understanding.
This way we all know a little more of where you are at - if you stick around and adopt the spirit, you will find a community here, and little snippets emerge of each of the members.
Look, Listen and Learn, ok.
Eric.
Peter - Thankyou for clarifying a few points to Schmad, and just a pity that it has taken so many posts for the message to get through. 🙄
Self Appointed Honorary Moderator Hat On - Schmad, you are brand new around here and you are gaining access to a number of well experienced old hands here (over 1000 posts each and 20+ years audio electronics experience), speaking of their long experiences and questions - these are deep questions from fellows who have experienced a million audio situations, and through this experience formed interesting correlations.
It is from these correlations that questions are answered, and further interesting questions are formed.
This is indeed the process of pure science.
Schmad, you are going against the grain of the spirit of this forum, and in particular this thread by harping about provability, when the context of this discussion is that some of us are saying that we are hearing differences and in addition we are seeking explanations.
"No, I have never sat down and done tests with all else being equal other than the solder alloy used."
"....But the likelyhood of what I'm hearing have anything to do with the solder isn't sufficiently high in my opinion to undertake such a test."
ROTFLMAO - Sort of shot yourself in the feet with a double 10-guage there I'd say, or painted yourself into a corner - bad either way.
I'll repeat "If you go to the trouble of trying the above experiments, I contend that given sufficiently good replay gear that you will hear differences, provided that you approach with an open mind."
"What is your real name, and what is your audio experience ?."
That meant what should we call you rather than talking to a mr nobody - the other sincere guys here sign off with a name, as is polite in society.
It is also a polite question as to your level of experience and understanding.
This way we all know a little more of where you are at - if you stick around and adopt the spirit, you will find a community here, and little snippets emerge of each of the members.
Look, Listen and Learn, ok.
Eric.
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